bikinfool

Since the rain stopped today, had a chance to finish the install of the new 650b wheelset on the Heckler...

ed 

So what did the Heckler ever do to you to be treated in such a foul manner??? Hecklers should be running a 36VanRC2 with Gastro's wheelset and a DHX5 wrapped in coil. At least tell me you're planning on using some 650b Nevegals instead of the weird Pannini's or whatevah.

On a serious note...should be fun to hear your report...I can't wait.

dminor 

^^ Don't be dissin' the 650B - - it 'b' the wave of the future ().

I be curious of rim and tire; from what I've seen available so far, they are not quite up to the rigors of aggressive MTBing. Am I missing something? My dream is a DH-able 650B F/26" R combo.

bikinfool

This is my xc bike, I run the Van36RC2 on on my Nomad, overkill on the Heckler; the Van32R is just fine, thanks. Do your eyes deceive you and see other than a DHX Coil on there now? The wheels are my own build (King hubs, Sapim db, Sun EQ27 rims), what does Gastro prefer to build for himself? I've never used Nevegals even in 26" and don't know why I should either, edjucamate me...In any case, not a much bigger diameter with the new wheels over my old ones running Fat Albert 2.4s...I'd show you but this forum doesn't seem to provide such an option...or do they hide that option here?

bikinfool

Just an experiment, they're Sun EQ27 rims with Sapim db spokes on King ISO hubs, Pacenti NeoMoto 2.3 tires. When I was up in Downieville I saw more and more 29ers and no wheel problems FWIW, even tho I was of the opinion they weren't durable enough; biggest problem was fitting them on the shuttle racks. Bunch of my friends been doing the 29er thing and no wheel problems despite the theory. I'm sure my own build on the 650b wheels will be better than most machine built 26" ones in any case...

S.D.XC

why is everyone building up Full Sussers now??

ed 

A Heckler can take a whole lot more abuse than you're aware of, I guess...a 36 is a great fork for it if you're going to be using it for that style of riding. There's a local boy who has been using his for light FR stuff for quite a long time now with a big 'ol fork and it's been a jewel. Regarding DHX...I just start rattling off my preferred build. I didn't even look to see what fork you're running...nor do I care. I'm just happy to see more support for the Heckler. As long as people are buying them, they'll keep making them, then when I can afford one...they'll still be in production for me.

pinkrobe

So we can ride them?

born2bahick

How much taller is the 650 setup with your tires than an average 26 in set up? Might be something to think about on the Blur.

ed 

Don't go there...hillbilly's ain't into that foofoo crap.

born2bahick

If foo say so.

ed 

For the sake of those who want to try it...can you post closeup pic's of the chainstays, seatstays, and seat tube clearance?

born2bahick

That's what I'm talking about, I might want to build a 650Buelur

ed 

'Beckler' – Santa Cruz Heckler With 650B Wheels
by Eric McKeegan

In issue #131 Andy reviewed the Pacenti 650B hardtail and concluded, "The bottom line is that I'm curious to see what else is possible with 650B's. As far as hardtails go, the prototype I rode was a fun all-around bike. But if the real benefit of 650B's is on bikes with greater than 4 inches of rear travel, you've got my attention. I'd like to see more." I wanted to see more, too, as did other Dirt Rag staffers, and so this project was hatched.

In reality the 650B movement is the result of the 29er movement. As riders started clamoring for longer travel 29ers, the inherent problems with trying to fit both big wheels and big travel into a frame with relatively "normal" geometry became apparent. Already high handlebars become even higher and chainstays need to grow to keep the rear wheel from hitting the seat tube and to let it clear the front derailleur. With the increase in speed that usually accompanies an increase in travel, components need to be stiffer and stronger, particularly wheels and forks. This can lead to a pretty hefty package full of oversize parts: short 1.5" diameter head tubes to deal with the longer lever of the fork while keeping the handlebar height reasonable, a 150mm rear hub with matching 83mm bottom bracket shell to add some strength to the rear wheel, and room for pivots and front derailleur up front. Front hubs may need to go oversize, too, as the current 100/110mm standard offers little in the way of spoke triangulation for 700c wheels. The list could go on, but each part falling outside the "normal" standard adds cost and often weight to the equation.

In theory 650B wheels should allow designs to take advantage of proven 26" geometry and more standard parts while keeping some of the 29er's positive traits, mainly increased traction and ability to roll over trail features rather than hanging up on them.

I was interested enough in this theory to start the ball rolling on a longer-travel 650B bike, and with help from a few companies we've got an interesting creation here at Dirt Rag HQ. Santa Cruz was kind enough to send along a Heckler frame, and White Brothers sent their 130mm travel, 650B-specific, 20mm thru-axle fork. A pair of Neo-Moto tires came from Mr. 650B himself, Kirk Pacenti. Wheels came together with help from Velocity (Blunt rims) and Hope (Pro II hubs). The last piece of the puzzle came in the form of a Pearl 3.3 rear shock from RockShox. This was a key part: if the Heckler's stock 150mm of travel was not reduced, the larger wheel could contact the seat tube or front derailleur under full compression. If my math is correct we are running about 120mm of travel and could probably get about 130mm by reducing the height of the internal travel-limiting spacer.

Spring showers have kept my rides short, but initial impressions are good, good enough to plan a day with long descents and lotsa rocks. Keep an eye on our blog for updates.



Is this a problem for you (OP) as well?

ed 

More crap for D:

Everybody Likes Pictures....
About three months ago, I asked the question on this board about building up a 69 Heckler. Got tons of great feedback, particularly from Kirk and TNC (thanks for all the help). Their input persuaded me to really think about going 650B up front on a Heckler.

Here's the build:

Build Kit
2008 Large Heckler
2008 Fox 36 TALAS RC2
2008 XT Shadow R. Deraileur
2008 XT F. Deraileur
2008 XT 175mm Cranks
2008 XT Pedals
2008 XTR Rapid Fire Shift Pods
2008 Avid Juicy 7 185mm
Chris King Headset
Race Face Next Carbon Lo-Rise
Thomson 130 x 0 Silver Stem
Thomson Elite Black Setback Post
Sella Italia Gel Flow Seat
ODI Lock-On Ruffian
Mavic 819 w\ Black Chris King Hub (Rear)
Velocity Blunt 650B w\ Pewter Chris King 20mm thru (Front)

Weight on Paper: 28.2 lbs. Weight on LBS Scale: 28.4 lbs

Here's the end result - I still haven't had a chance to get her dialed in on the trail (raining today), I'll post updates as I do though. Pictures and comments follow:



An unGodly long stem:

born2bahick

AS magnificent as that machine looks I feel that reducing travel on the heckler is a shame.
But I guess someones gotta do the research so the factory boys know what to build in the end.
Factories have always watched the winners (of whatever sport) to get insight for there next years direction. However the big wheel movement wasn't podium driven. Seems more of a grass roots drive for sizing niches. I dunno.

dminor 

That's one reason I like the idea of the 650B front / 26 rear. No rear issues to worry about and you still have the larger tire up front where you really could use it - - without going to the extreme of a 29. I'm thinking the bike equivalent to the 21/18 dirt bike mix for all of the same reasons that fronts went to 21s on them.

bikinfool

Have three Hecklers, was even a dealer in 07 (why I have the third, useful stock I could take with me), in any case am pretty aware of what the Heckler is about. I use the Nomad for the light FR kinda riding, used it a lot more when I lived up in the Sierras, just not as much here in the bay area so built the Heckler with a lighter build in mind (but plenty capable). Also, it feels good with the 140, 160 might be too slacked out for my taste.


A 650b rim is basically 25mm larger in diameter (559 vs 584), so depends on what tires you run. There wasn't a huge difference between my Fat Albert 2.4s on the 26" wheels and the NeoMoto 2.3 on the 650b's, but I didn't measure, see the pic below; I'd say less than the inch difference I expected, maybe 3/4".


Photo of the old and new wheel and the new wheel in the frame attached.

I don't think any of the VPP bikes from SC have been good candidates for a rear 650b wheel, but didn't really look into them as the Nomad is definitely too tight now with a fat 26".


I'd seen some original reports of the current Heckler needing this, including having seen this article, but several others have reported no issues. With the spring off and no air in the shock, no contact at all. I think someone may have tried with the previous generation of Heckler, IDK, I might get around to seeing if it'll fit in there one of these days. OTOH didn't get a chance to ride today, will find out tomorrow how it rides and what issues there might be.

ps Didn't really look at that photo of the tire in the frame; the clearance is huge, doesn't show well..

S.D.XC

OooHH!!

SHINEE!!!

ed 

I guess depending on your style, it could be a positive or a negative. If the 650b 2.3" Neo is the same size as the 26" FA2.4, then you're not gaining anything with regards to the intentions of the designer. (larger diameter for better momentum over rough terrain) The positive is that you can use a smaller/lighter tire to get the same diameter...which could also be a negative. I'd prefer more tire with less pressure for a "smoother" ride, more floatation, and better traction. A more "XC oriented" rider could prefer the opposite for lighter/snappier ride.

I can see the benefit for someone.

Now then...if they made the 650b in a 2.5" casing...I'd begin to look a little deeper into it, but tire clearance would surely become an issue. You'd have to use a 29'er or 650b specific frame. Still a thought though.

Thanks for the close-ups.

bikinfool

I sort of knew that the differences might not be so much. I remember when a buddy of mine started changing over to 29ers and had my Nomad with big 2.5s next to one of his (with a relatively skinny xc kind of tire, probably a 1.9), they were almost as tall, too! If Kirk P puts out a larger NeoMoto I think I've got enough room to try it....but right now it's time to go ride the new wheels and see what difference they make!

ed 

keep updating

dminor 

I want a 2.5 DHF in 650B and I want it now.

Of course, then I'd probably have to switch back to using an inverted fork. Oh well, I'll be patient.