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Old 05-06-09, 10:00 AM
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B.a.t.a.d.

Bikers Against Technologically Advanced Drivetrains

That's right. I was recently reading a blog by a random dude named Dan that really made sense to me. SRAM XX is coming like the "mark of the Beast" and how much longer before technological advancement becomes a contradiction to the term? 9-speed works well except when you talk to the die-hard retro 8-speeder. How many of us are going to moan when the 10 speed MTB becomes a standard on Deore level bikes and above? Weaker chain? Cassette more susceptible to missed shifts from blades of tall grass? More extreme chainlines?

My new PG990/PC971/RF-32t drivetrain is working just fine, quiet, smooth, shifts well...but how much better would it be (if any) without all that extra junk hanging off my frame?

I think I may find out in the not-so-distant future.

We'll see.

Discuss?
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Old 05-06-09, 10:09 AM
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IMO, the best advancements will come when Shimano and SRAM come to market with a reliable enough for prolonged offroad use internal gear hubs. Sure, you can use some of their existing hubs for that, but neither suggests it, and durability seems to be somewhat problematic.

They could both come up with something just as durable, lighter than, and less expensive than the Rohloff. I'd be very surprised if they don't have something in the works.

The Hammerschmidt to me is sort of a lateral move from what needs to happen.
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Old 05-06-09, 10:30 AM
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I think a SS config with Hammerschmidt would be a pretty cool setup.
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Old 05-06-09, 10:30 AM
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I totally agree. To me, 9sp is pretty gimmicky.
Weaker chain, weaker cassette sprockets, worse cross-chaining, more expensive parts.
Hell, a sram 9sp chain is $60.
I'm content with my 8sp setup, even if it is "old technology".
Gonna ride it til I can't no more.
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Old 05-06-09, 10:33 AM
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I think you can get a better deal than that 'bot. I just got my pc971 chain for $18 at Pricepoint.

I've only broken 1 9-speed chain...and it was an XT oddly enough. I don't think 9speed is gimmicky, but I do feel that if they made an 8-speed 990/XT setup...I'd be on board.

As it sets, SS is looking pretty tantalizing.
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Old 05-06-09, 10:34 AM
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I like where Scrub's pointing though...getting ride of the derailleur completely sounds wonderful.
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Old 05-06-09, 10:42 AM
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I'd stick with 8 speed, if there wasnt a shortage of decent 8 speed shifters out there...
but, by popular demand t "have the latest and 'greatest'" I will have to succumb to 9 speed.

10 gears to me, just doesnt sound mountain bikish.... makes me think roadie.
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Old 05-06-09, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by -_RebelRidin'_- View Post
I'd stick with 8 speed, if there wasnt a shortage of decent 8 speed shifters out there...
but, by popular demand t "have the latest and 'greatest'" I will have to succumb to 9 speed.

10 gears to me, just doesnt sound mountain bikish.... makes me think roadie.
Not if road makes the jump to eleven. Totally worth it, in my opinion. Because then you can say, "But, mine goes to eleven."
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Old 05-06-09, 10:50 AM
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I'm not again' technology - - but would like to follow it in a different direction than that. Like scrub, I long for MTB-able internal. Yes, I am going to flog a Sturmey-Archer XRK-8 this year just to see what it will/won't do.

And now, about chains: This just showed up yesterday on another board and, dang!, this has got my brain cogs turning again:

https://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=217991

Think of that - - a silent drivetrain; just you and the rush of the wind .
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Old 05-06-09, 11:03 AM
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batad, I thought you meant this.
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Old 05-06-09, 12:12 PM
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I think there's worst things going on. What about those digital shifting drivetrains that the pros are using ? I saw that during The Tour of California. They carry a battery on the downtube. To me that really takes away a lot of the essence of cycling, which is to move with your own self-created energy. Specialized makes one of those bikes, the S-Works Tarmac, and I think the team is Saxo Bank. I know I'm giving a roadie example, but it is something to keep an eye out for, it could make the crossover to mountain biking.
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Old 05-06-09, 12:18 PM
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Sorry if this is old news, but has SRAM announced whether XX will have two or three rings up front? 30 speeds seems like a lot. How many do we really need...?
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Old 05-06-09, 12:49 PM
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I think it's 2 by 10. Hence the "XX" naming.

I am still not sure what the hell people do with all these gears....

I have one by eight currently, thinking of blocking it off to seven.
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Old 05-06-09, 12:58 PM
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Yup, it's 2x10.

I read an article about some engineer who used to work for or founded a bike company (Maverick, maybe?) that was working with a big mfgr. that was going to "revolutinize" the MTB drivetrain. I don't know if that was the Hammerschmidt...or the Nuvinci guy. I'm lazy right now and I'm not gonna research it.

So yeah...a lighter Nuvinci type thing seems ideal to me. No actual detent for the gears...infinite. Internal with a belt drive sounds pretty stinkin' kewl when it's strong/light enough for MTB applications.

Last edited by dminor; 05-06-09 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 05-06-09, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
I think a SS config with Hammerschmidt would be a pretty cool setup.
We just set one up at the shop for a guy. Very nice. Took a while, as he's running a dingle in the rear, but very cool. He got the AM version by mistake for his DH rig, so we kinda suggested it would be cool to try it, and he said go ahead. Turning out to be a neat project.

I think I saw a 650B Igleheart in the last dirt rag running one.
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Old 05-06-09, 02:14 PM
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So what dingle / crankset gear combo's did the guy use, joe?

I think running the 24 with an 18 or so would be about right. Plenty low on the 24t 1:1 for climbing, yet a good ratio for the 1.16:1 (would be like a 38/18 setup on a SS) for the overdrive setup.
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Old 05-06-09, 02:22 PM
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You gotta wipe better if you have a dingle in the rear.
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Old 05-06-09, 02:31 PM
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24/38 up front, 21/18 in the rear. Took it around the block a few times a little bit ago, and its nice. I kept it on the 18t, but was still a cool feeling. Shifts as smooth as a babys butt.
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Old 05-06-09, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by junkyard View Post
You gotta wipe better if you have a dingle in the rear.
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Old 05-06-09, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dminor View Post
I'm not again' technology - - but would like to follow it in a different direction than that. Like scrub, I long for MTB-able internal. Yes, I am going to flog a Sturmey-Archer XRK-8 this year just to see what it will/won't do.

And now, about chains: This just showed up yesterday on another board and, dang!, this has got my brain cogs turning again:

https://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=217991

Think of that - - a silent drivetrain; just you and the rush of the wind .
i had a sturmey archer 8spd rear on my commuter for a bit. bomber, heavy. but...not up to the torque of offroad and the slow engagement speed/pedal lag would drive me insane offroad. the xrf8. which afaik is only differing from the k model in that it has no disc mounts. be wary...

granted, it was cheap. the thing was freakin' heavy.
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Old 05-06-09, 03:22 PM
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I will take your caveat under advisement, scrub. The weight might not bother me but laggy engagement does not sound good. Was it finnicky about cable adjustment like old S-Rs (i.e. - false neutrals)?

My other play-around thought is a SRAM Dual-Drive. It has standard 135mm spacing; and I could run one ring up front and a single chainline-spaced cog on the carrier. It would be a 'thringle.' Once again, durability might be an issue; but the internals may prove better than the S-A.
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Old 05-06-09, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dminor View Post
I will take your caveat under advisement, scrub. The weight might not bother me but laggy engagement does not sound good. Was it finnicky about cable adjustment like old S-Rs (i.e. - false neutrals)?

My other play-around thought is a SRAM Dual-Drive. It has standard 135mm spacing; and I could run one ring up front and a single chainline-spaced cog on the carrier. It would be a 'thringle.' Once again, durability might be an issue; but the internals may prove better than the S-A.
it was a little finicky. once set, though, it worked fine, just hated the lag. IMO the internals are suspect for offroad use, and certainly the outer bits.

i like the idea of the sram i-motion 9spd setup- comes in a disc brake variety as well. again, just not sure of the durability/lag. i'd love to try one on some commuter bike in a shop, to see how it felt.

actually, same thoughts re: the shimano alfine 8spd hub. also in disc brake version.
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Old 05-06-09, 03:40 PM
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Problem 1:
Problem with technological advancement is knowing when to stop once the goal has been achieved. Reminds me of cell phones with camera, video recorder, mp3 player, movie player, and internet access... but poor phone coverage and short battery life.

Problem 2:
Problem with against groups on the otherhand is - who will be the judge as to what-is and what-isn't technologically advanced? Who decides where to draw the line - as to how far back we regress until technology is no longer offensive? Are shifting ramps/notches in cassette and chainring teeth, technologically advanced for example? What about indexed trigger shifters... do we go back to friction levers for the sake of purity?

Personally I don't like the idea of a 10 speed cassette and everything else it entails, but I'm not going to hold anyone back if that's what they prefer or require.


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Old 05-06-09, 03:52 PM
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FYI, road went to 11 a few months ago. 11-cog drivetrains from Campagnolo, Shimano.
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Old 05-06-09, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Pocko View Post
Problem 1:
do we go back to friction levers for the sake of purity?
My only geared MTB has them. Nothing better than a friction thumby IMO and less to brake to boot. But then again, I'm running 1x7. Good 7spd shifters are hard to come by. I like being able to "dial" in the gear to my own liking. Takes a while to get used to, but once you have it down you kinda remember your own indexes...
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