Johnny Law

this is a better shot in the much warmer months lol

Johnelwood

I've done some running--including some halfs and a full marathon, some 5k's, 10'ks, etc. but I primarily bike lately. But shoes are very important--I recommend going to a running store. Yes, they will have some of the same brands, but the shoes are not the same. Trust me. Don't learn the hard way like I did--I bought myself a pair of New Balance from Big 5 for $35 and lost a toe nail or two, developed blisters and almost had to stop training for an event altogether. Went to a running store, paid $95+ for a pair of New Balance and ran pain and symptom free for months and knocked out several events. Probably less of an isssue for some than others, but the shoes are not the same even thought they look the same to a newb / layperson. Kind of like I used to think the bikes at Target were the same until I demoed and spent way too much money on a new mtn bike a year ago and learned what they can really do... Invest in your passion, especially if it makes you healthier...(as long as you don't get taken out by a mountain lion or an SUV...)

mx_599

huh? what are you talking about. i didn't read any conspiracy book, those were my original thoughts. i also said not necessary for vast majority...if i didnt say that, oops...said it now though. who did i quote?? are you saying Sarno talked about flu shots?? must have been in the latter half off book then (i am only about 1/2 to 3/4 through) if he talked about flu shots i had no idea. coincidence i guess.

you seem like you're in a pretty mean mood, whatever...

people can do what they want with shoes, if you go back most of my recs stem from more proper striking than ultimately what is on their feet. which book do you keep referring to about health decisions? i am not sure what you are talking about.

you have good evidence against barefoot/minimalist?? love to hear it...

Johnny Law

i know right?! it has been exactly 1 year since she had her surgery.

rankin116

I have no opinion about the minimalist argument. I have done no research about it at all.

You said most people don't need a flu shot, yet you have no background or information to back that up. You told me to read that book as a response to my question.

My entire point is that you have a very strong opinion about minimalist shoes, yet you have not given any reason for that opinion, other than to tell people what books they should read. How long have you been running? Do you compete regularly? Do you really think you have enough education and experience to give other people advice about their choice of footwear?

FYI - I'm not in a bad mood. I just want to know where you're coming from.

dminor 

sscyco

I have to agree - I have heard about the minimalist thing for a while - all positive from people the run less than me. All of them referencing books and inter web articles - non from actual experience. The few that have mucho experience (have been running more and longer than I) think it is more of a fad and can injure most that do too much, too often. I believe it has it's place (I am reading Born to Run right now - great book) - but in my case would have been much more beneficial to me if I had started it way earlier in life.

sscyco

Sombody call a mod!!! Dminor posted pics of wieners!!!

dminor 

^^ Relax, they're not real.

And that is legitimate art; could have been a pic from a Daily Ride Report - - had I been mountain biking through the middle of Prague.

sscyco

^^ And I was thinking lego land.................

mx_599

oh sorry, I wasn't connecting that book to the flu, it has nothing to do with that. The flu thing is my own original work. I am looking into it for my own benefit. They might hand them out willy nilly at places of work like they are free...but someone is paying the handful of big drug companies for them! Nice revenue booster I wonder how many higher ups at the CDC/politicians have portfolios with those drug companies?

been doing the minimalist thing about 1 year now. I run quite a bit now more than I did before - now I find it fun! I do not compete regularly. I like to keep running for fun and less analytical with HR monitor gizmos and such.

Correct, I am very passionate about it. I wish someone enlightened me 15 years ago! Just like to share the experience with others. They can do their own research though. I have a ton of links if you want me to PM them to you? There is even pubmed type stuff.

Just remember, it doesn't have to be in the NEJM or Lancet to be legitimate

off topic, I am signing up for the Breckenridge 100 mtb! I need to see if it opened up.

also, plug for Tomac...some new bikes on webpage

mx_599

yes, you need to go slow. just cause you need to go slow does not mean it is wrong. never too late!

I am sure Bikila ran the 60 Olympic Marathon at a high intensity.

Lots don't want to try because they think it looks silly or the VFFs are dorky...well, it's a shame they'ed pass up something this good due to fashion. Enjoy the book!

The older people in my running club think it's a fad too, I just snicker to myself. You can't get into an educated discussion with close-mindedness. That's like me trying to have a discussion about Paleo diet with someone who is religious and states that the world is only 6000 years old and all the dating technology we have does not work and "were you around back then?, how do you know?" statement pretty much stops me in my tracks.

also, mucho experience tells me close-mindedness as well. Just remember that. Plus their mucho experience was in a generation of sneaks. They know no different... habits die hard. They are not comfortable with this idea rocking their sneaker wearing world.

dminor 

He came from motocross, if that tells you anything. We're all hooligans.



Corporate shill!

mx_599

KTM's suck!

and why is this one of the most popular threads on a mtb sub forum? maybe it should go to the racing section

sscyco

My mind is opening - I added the Kinvara to my rotation of 3 Kayanos - And I love them - they are coming out with a 0 offset, that will be my next pair (mine are 4mm now). I still think most that are going for the 5 finger are doing it for style.

samburger

This sure is a long thread for a topic that has nothing to do with mountain biking. No wheels involved, no trails involved. As far as I'm concerned, this entire topic is for roadies of an entirely different sport.

And for what it's worth, run in whatever the fack feels best to you. It's not rocket science. You can't argue what feels good to someone else.

Zephyr11

Running experience is 11 years of running: 4 years of high school cross-country; 4 years of NCAA DI cross-country, indoor track, and outdoor track; and 3 years post-collegiately on club teams. I'd call the last 9 of that serious, since I didn't know what I was doing for the first two years of high school. The last 7 were consistently well above 60 miles per week. The last 2 have both had several periods of consistent 90-100 mile weeks. Distances have ranged from the 1500 to the marathon, though most of my experience is with the 5K, and most post-collegiate training has been focused on the half (and a single marathon). I haven't read Born to Run, but I've done a lot of other research (mostly magazine and widely available stuff, a few scholarly articles and anatomy/physiology/physical therapy/etc textbooks.

I'd call it a fad in that it's gotten insanely popular recently, and I think that the vast majority of those people don't have the biomechanics to go minimal and they're likely to end up injured in the long run. They may clear up their current problems, since they're shifted the muscles and tendons that are being used, but I don't think it's a viable long term solution for most people (for example, they've taken some of the strain off their peroneal tendon, but are now overusing their posterior tibialis). You can strengthen muscles, tendons, and ligaments to some extent, which will make you a more neutral runner. However, unless your goal is to make yourself neutral instead of make yourself fast, it's not an efficient way to train. Structural changes happen too slowly (ESPECIALLY tendons and ligaments, which also often don't heal properly if they are injured), and the risk of injury is high. On the other hand, the people who are naturally neutral pronators will benefit from the greater selection of minimal shoes that are becoming available, since they do not need all of the extra stability features that overpronators need or cushioning that supinators need.

I've been racing in spikes or flats for the past 8 years, been doing speed workouts in spikes or flats for the past 7 years, and picked up a pair of Nike Frees about 4 years ago (pre-Born to Run). It has nothing to do with VFFs looking dorky. It has to do with wanting to train at a high level and not willing to sacrifice my training in order to let my tendons and ligaments adapt to that. I wouldn't really call that closed-minded as far as minimalism goes (I don't know, maybe some of the hardcore minimalists would since I never tried going 100% barefoot). Question is...are you closed-minded as far as considering shoes?

I still believe that your body will figure out the fastest, most efficient way to run on its own, through efficiency training. Jack Daniels (exercise physiologist who is considered America's premier running coach, though he has nothing to do with whiskey) has his athletes do workouts at approximately mile race pace to work efficiency. And not everyone's fastest, most efficient stride involves neutral pronation or midfoot striking.

We're not going to agree, and that's fine! Do what works for you! That's what makes the sport fun.

dminor 

Hush up, youngster. It is a legitimate cross-training activity that many find benefits or complements our mountain biking.

Ah, but the whiskey has everything to do with mountain biking - - or so it would seem at least in North Idaho (award podium, Silveroxx - Silver Mountain, 2008):

sscyco

You should be a mod in the road forum.

Zephyr11

Well, no one's arguing that point!

mx_599

motocross has defined the person who I have become...

I had planned on getting the Ibis Mojo SL in small to replace my other one...but I noticed Tomac just released a carbon framed 120mm travel "do all" frame. hmmm now it's a toss up.

My Carbide Tomac was flawless in Leadville...

so I gots all these ex-mojo parts, they need a home in a frame. Tomac vs Ibis

mx_599

5 finger for style? no way. attention *****s maybe... they are one of the only things that fit me well. that is why i chose them as I transition to bare all the way or for times when bare is not practical.

santiago

It's funny how the mountain bikers here are so hung up on the shoes and style of running. Aren't we the ones that say "Shorts, manpris, lycra - wear whatever you want!"?

Oh wait, I forgot about the whole 29er fad.

//

So, little update. I finished my "Run a faster 5K" program. I don't know if I run a faster 5k. I'm running in snow and assume it's less efficient than running on bare asphalt. I did however match my best asphalt time while running in the snow but not in a race condition. I just went out and ran one day. The rest of the days I just followed my program with respect to what pace I should run at what point.

I did start up a "Run a half-marathon" program that has me running about 60 minutes four times per week. The program is varied and there is one day a week that slowly increases. I've run two 50' runs following the pace and already knocked off 20k this week. If anything, my 5K program made me a stronger runner. I ran 20K in two outings within 4 days (I was supposed to run yesterday but ran out of time) and feel absolutely fine.

Johnny Law

mine are pretty much glued to my feet man!

im going to have to get the new waterproof ones when i move to WA. I already have the KSO's and Bikilas haha..

mx_599

at least someone sees where i am coming from, dont you love trail running in them??