Are you risking your spine Mountain biking?
#1
Single-serving poster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Are you risking your spine Mountain biking?
Seems so.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65352D20100604
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65352D20100604
High speeds, extreme terrain and long vertical drops might be making the increasingly popular sport of mountain biking as risky as football, diving and cheerleading, suggests a new study.
...
The majority of riders, he explained, were injured as a result of either being propelled over the handlebars (going "endo") or falling from great heights ("hucking"). In both scenarios, the result was often a severe impact to the head that triggered trauma down the neck and spine. "The higher the jump or fall," added Dvorak, "the higher the risk."
...
The majority of riders, he explained, were injured as a result of either being propelled over the handlebars (going "endo") or falling from great heights ("hucking"). In both scenarios, the result was often a severe impact to the head that triggered trauma down the neck and spine. "The higher the jump or fall," added Dvorak, "the higher the risk."
#2
Moar cowbell
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The 509
Posts: 12,481
Bikes: Bike list is not a resume. Nobody cares.
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Of course you are. You're risking c-spine injuries daily doing any number of things, including driving a car.
For the record, more and more gravity riders and racers are wearing braces (Leatt, EVS, A-Stars, etc.) - - even the young 'invincible' kids who don't wear any other stitch of armor. I know that some dispute the effectiveness of HANS-type devices but to me it's still heartening to see. I got my Leatt this year now will not race downhill without one.
For the record, more and more gravity riders and racers are wearing braces (Leatt, EVS, A-Stars, etc.) - - even the young 'invincible' kids who don't wear any other stitch of armor. I know that some dispute the effectiveness of HANS-type devices but to me it's still heartening to see. I got my Leatt this year now will not race downhill without one.
__________________
RST Suspension | Canfield Bikes | 7iDP Protection | Maxxis | Renthal | Hayes | VonZipper Optics | GoPro
Originally Posted by Mark Twain
"Don't argue with stupid people; they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
Last edited by dminor; 06-08-10 at 09:30 AM.
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
I guess since we can get hurt, we should all just live our lives in bubbles.
That's what's wrong with kids today; why they're so fat, out of shape, have no social skills, and a sense of entitlement that they don't have to work for anything. It's because little Johnny sits in front of the tube all day playing XBox because outside he might get a boo-boo or might fall while running the bases in a baseball game. Maybe he'll get in a little "tiff" with a neighborhood bully and suffer a skinned knee when he gets pushed down.
There is a risk with everything you do. You can break your neck stepping off the first step on your porch. Hell, look what happened to Gary Coleman. All he did was take a spill down a few stairs, and then the repercussions lead to his death. You could slip while getting out of the shower, hit your head on the toilet, and invent the Flux Capacitor, or you could wind up breaking your neck.
If it's in the cards today that I'm going to break my spine, I'm going to break it whether I'm walking around my house or out riding a bike. Remember the wrestler, Lex Luger? Not long ago he was on a plane, turned his head a certain direction, and his spine disconnected or something. He was totally crippled until about a year ago, and now he's in a rehab program. It happens.
That's what's wrong with kids today; why they're so fat, out of shape, have no social skills, and a sense of entitlement that they don't have to work for anything. It's because little Johnny sits in front of the tube all day playing XBox because outside he might get a boo-boo or might fall while running the bases in a baseball game. Maybe he'll get in a little "tiff" with a neighborhood bully and suffer a skinned knee when he gets pushed down.
There is a risk with everything you do. You can break your neck stepping off the first step on your porch. Hell, look what happened to Gary Coleman. All he did was take a spill down a few stairs, and then the repercussions lead to his death. You could slip while getting out of the shower, hit your head on the toilet, and invent the Flux Capacitor, or you could wind up breaking your neck.
If it's in the cards today that I'm going to break my spine, I'm going to break it whether I'm walking around my house or out riding a bike. Remember the wrestler, Lex Luger? Not long ago he was on a plane, turned his head a certain direction, and his spine disconnected or something. He was totally crippled until about a year ago, and now he's in a rehab program. It happens.
#4
part time rockstar
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: England
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Of course you are. You're risking c-spine injuries daily doing any number of things, including driving a car.
For the record, more and more gravity riders and racers are wearing braces (Leatt, EVS, A-Stars, etc.) - - even the young 'invincible' kids who don't wear any other stitch of armor. I know that some dispute the effectiveness of HANS-type devices but to me it's still heartening to see. I got my Leatt this year now will not race downhill without one.
For the record, more and more gravity riders and racers are wearing braces (Leatt, EVS, A-Stars, etc.) - - even the young 'invincible' kids who don't wear any other stitch of armor. I know that some dispute the effectiveness of HANS-type devices but to me it's still heartening to see. I got my Leatt this year now will not race downhill without one.
#5
Single-serving poster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
The point of the article is the increased risk of spinal injury above the daily things you do like walking and driving. Spinal injuries don't usually randomly happen offroad either, most of the horror stories i've heard involved stunts, excessive speed and pushing the envelope(Bender anybody?). Hucking and endo type scenarios where you're not riding with a reserve come to mind. Particularly I think it's worth mentioning the downsides since MTB nowadays seems to going towards bigger and badder trails and stunts. It's always sad to see somebodies kid or parent paralyzed. At the hospital in Whistler they even have a specific trauma unit for the spinal injuries coming off the mountain so there is definitely a type of riding which raises your risk above that of the normal person. You don't really hear about it because everybody is there for a good time but, there is a downside often not talked about.
#6
Lost in the Black Hills
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,725
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
A lot of it is Darwinism. Who is that guy who continually rides off cliffs?
__________________
Tomac Mountain Bikes | Light-Bikes l Magura USA | Industry Nine | Schwalbe Tires | Caffélatex
Tomac Mountain Bikes | Light-Bikes l Magura USA | Industry Nine | Schwalbe Tires | Caffélatex
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Behind you, in the bushes.
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In certain circles of mtb riders the trend seems to be going the way of Evil Knievel. What I mean here is it involves a glory seeker going for a big air stunt while a bunch of others stand around waiting for said glory seeker to prepare and then....execute the glorious stunt while some photographer catches it for all of us to see. I read BIKE and love most of the pictures but when I see guys way up in the air with no gear on themselves or the bike (ya know, water, pump etc) I just think poser. That's right....I said it...poser. With these jumping posers, the likelihood of ending up in the hospital seems higher than I am confortable with. I'm 50 now and have raced/ridden xcountry mtb since the early 80's and outside of light stitches, still haven't ever landed in the hospital. Long rides in remote places stir my soul and the souls of like minded folks. Preparing for the rides involves a couple of rides during the week, not a broken neck in the hospital or pushing my bike up a hill and then waiting for the camera guys to get the shot right. You shouldn't live in a bubble but for he!!'s sake, don't live in a wheelchair. Assessing risks and reacting accordingly is skill. Skilled people tend to live long and prosper with a big ol smile.
#9
Don't really have a bike.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 3,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
In certain circles of mtb riders the trend seems to be going the way of Evil Knievel. What I mean here is it involves a glory seeker going for a big air stunt while a bunch of others stand around waiting for said glory seeker to prepare and then....execute the glorious stunt while some photographer catches it for all of us to see. I read BIKE and love most of the pictures but when I see guys way up in the air with no gear on themselves or the bike (ya know, water, pump etc) I just think poser. That's right....I said it...poser. With these jumping posers, the likelihood of ending up in the hospital seems higher than I am confortable with. I'm 50 now and have raced/ridden xcountry mtb since the early 80's and outside of light stitches, still haven't ever landed in the hospital. Long rides in remote places stir my soul and the souls of like minded folks. Preparing for the rides involves a couple of rides during the week, not a broken neck in the hospital or pushing my bike up a hill and then waiting for the camera guys to get the shot right. You shouldn't live in a bubble but for he!!'s sake, don't live in a wheelchair. Assessing risks and reacting accordingly is skill. Skilled people tend to live long and prosper with a big ol smile.
I can remember when "big air" consisted of the GT or Haro teams launching off half pipes that were 20 feet high, and that was extreme. These days, it's all about pushing the boundaries and risking your life even further, all in the efforts to impress a few people. You ain't so impressive when you're lying on the ground with a cracked skull and 6 discs fused together.
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
#12
WNCrider
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I agree with RatedZ! I remember growing up and when getting home from school you did homework, then went outside to play with the kids in the neighborhood. We ran; played ball; rode bikes; if you were lucky a motorbike! We also made ramps and jumped them with our store bought Huffy's! Man those were the days! Did we get hurt, hell yes! We gashed knee's wide open; a few poor bastards broke things; got bloody noses; scraped entire palms of hands in the gravel from a freakish bike accident that was self inflicted if you want the truth! Bottom line.............we survived and have the scars to show off to this day!
Oh don't get me wrong, we had video games! An Atari 2600 so I am dating myself as you can see! Yes I grew up in the 70's into the 80's! But we had much rather went outside and played and gotten hurt than to have gotten finger cramps from a game controller! We were not overweight like the poor kid bastards of today sitting in front of a tv eating a box of Little Debbies or Twinkies! We would grab a cookie on the run to the outside; jump on a bike and pedal like it was the last 100 yards to the TDF finish line. Before we made it that hundred yards we had burned off that damn Chips Ahoy cookie five times over!
Kids now days are heart attacks around the corner. Sedentary life styles and most important lazy ass good for nothing parents that won't take time to take a kid bike riding or exercising or even playing ball whether on a school team or rec. league! I hate the bastard parents more for not incorperating a since of exercise in a kid's daily life. Sorry panty waste of parents in my book.
So yes, you can get hurt riding a bike. You can break your penis during sex but I bet you don't stop having sex because that is a possibility. I could break a tooth bringing a beer up to my lips; trip in the john and hit my head on the porcelain bowl and die! But if that happens..............God wanted me to die that way!
Oh don't get me wrong, we had video games! An Atari 2600 so I am dating myself as you can see! Yes I grew up in the 70's into the 80's! But we had much rather went outside and played and gotten hurt than to have gotten finger cramps from a game controller! We were not overweight like the poor kid bastards of today sitting in front of a tv eating a box of Little Debbies or Twinkies! We would grab a cookie on the run to the outside; jump on a bike and pedal like it was the last 100 yards to the TDF finish line. Before we made it that hundred yards we had burned off that damn Chips Ahoy cookie five times over!
Kids now days are heart attacks around the corner. Sedentary life styles and most important lazy ass good for nothing parents that won't take time to take a kid bike riding or exercising or even playing ball whether on a school team or rec. league! I hate the bastard parents more for not incorperating a since of exercise in a kid's daily life. Sorry panty waste of parents in my book.
So yes, you can get hurt riding a bike. You can break your penis during sex but I bet you don't stop having sex because that is a possibility. I could break a tooth bringing a beer up to my lips; trip in the john and hit my head on the porcelain bowl and die! But if that happens..............God wanted me to die that way!
#13
Single-serving poster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
#14
Moar cowbell
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The 509
Posts: 12,481
Bikes: Bike list is not a resume. Nobody cares.
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
I'm 55 now and am hitting gaps, step-ups, step-downs etc. that would have either scared the crap out of me to attempt or would have splattered me just five years ago. I choose to do this, not because I think I'm going to impress some of the groms on the hill or get some props from a pic on PinkBike but just because I couldn't do it before and now I can. Do I take risks? Yes! But are they calculated and do I work up to the in bite-size chunks? Yes again. Have I hurt myself trying? Yes; and now I do a little bit better at listening to that tiny voice in the back of my head that tells me sometimes to cool it and save it for another day.
That's what learning and progression are all about.
__________________
RST Suspension | Canfield Bikes | 7iDP Protection | Maxxis | Renthal | Hayes | VonZipper Optics | GoPro
Originally Posted by Mark Twain
"Don't argue with stupid people; they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
#15
Single-serving poster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I disagree with this. Yes, there are people who push the envelope of what's possible in any sport but not everyone does it for glory or a photo spread. Some of us just like to continue to progress in the discipline we've chosen - - to do something a little better, a little bigger, with a little more flair and control than the time before.
I'm 55 now and am hitting gaps, step-ups, step-downs etc. that would have either scared the crap out of me to attempt or would have splattered me just five years ago. I choose to do this, not because I think I'm going to impress some of the groms on the hill or get some props from a pic on PinkBike but just because I couldn't do it before and now I can. Do I take risks? Yes! But are they calculated and do I work up to the in bite-size chunks? Yes again. Have I hurt myself trying? Yes; and now I do a little bit better at listening to that tiny voice in the back of my head that tells me sometimes to cool it and save it for another day.
That's what learning and progression are all about.
I'm 55 now and am hitting gaps, step-ups, step-downs etc. that would have either scared the crap out of me to attempt or would have splattered me just five years ago. I choose to do this, not because I think I'm going to impress some of the groms on the hill or get some props from a pic on PinkBike but just because I couldn't do it before and now I can. Do I take risks? Yes! But are they calculated and do I work up to the in bite-size chunks? Yes again. Have I hurt myself trying? Yes; and now I do a little bit better at listening to that tiny voice in the back of my head that tells me sometimes to cool it and save it for another day.
That's what learning and progression are all about.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Behind you, in the bushes.
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is a good discussion. The opening question, "Are you risking your spine Mountain Biking" is so generic. I guess the short answer is yes, but knowing your personal limits can help reduce the risk to personally acceptable levels. Are others still going to bellyache that you are living dangerously and not considering others (family etc.)? Yup!
To find those limits do you need to go over the invisible line that results in injury? It seems likely. Who do you know that rides a lot and hasn't ever been injured?
A coworker once told me a wise man learns from his mistakes but a brilliant man learns from the mistakes of others. That was about 15 years ago. He was a well accomplished ex pro roadie who then worked in the bike industry. He now does ironman's in his late 50's. A good egg and a wise man.
To find those limits do you need to go over the invisible line that results in injury? It seems likely. Who do you know that rides a lot and hasn't ever been injured?
A coworker once told me a wise man learns from his mistakes but a brilliant man learns from the mistakes of others. That was about 15 years ago. He was a well accomplished ex pro roadie who then worked in the bike industry. He now does ironman's in his late 50's. A good egg and a wise man.
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
I disagree with this. Yes, there are people who push the envelope of what's possible in any sport but not everyone does it for glory or a photo spread. Some of us just like to continue to progress in the discipline we've chosen - - to do something a little better, a little bigger, with a little more flair and control than the time before.
I'm 55 now and am hitting gaps, step-ups, step-downs etc. that would have either scared the crap out of me to attempt or would have splattered me just five years ago. I choose to do this, not because I think I'm going to impress some of the groms on the hill or get some props from a pic on PinkBike but just because I couldn't do it before and now I can. Do I take risks? Yes! But are they calculated and do I work up to the in bite-size chunks? Yes again. Have I hurt myself trying? Yes; and now I do a little bit better at listening to that tiny voice in the back of my head that tells me sometimes to cool it and save it for another day.
That's what learning and progression are all about.
I'm 55 now and am hitting gaps, step-ups, step-downs etc. that would have either scared the crap out of me to attempt or would have splattered me just five years ago. I choose to do this, not because I think I'm going to impress some of the groms on the hill or get some props from a pic on PinkBike but just because I couldn't do it before and now I can. Do I take risks? Yes! But are they calculated and do I work up to the in bite-size chunks? Yes again. Have I hurt myself trying? Yes; and now I do a little bit better at listening to that tiny voice in the back of my head that tells me sometimes to cool it and save it for another day.
That's what learning and progression are all about.
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
I agree with RatedZ! I remember growing up and when getting home from school you did homework, then went outside to play with the kids in the neighborhood. We ran; played ball; rode bikes; if you were lucky a motorbike! We also made ramps and jumped them with our store bought Huffy's! Man those were the days! Did we get hurt, hell yes! We gashed knee's wide open; a few poor bastards broke things; got bloody noses; scraped entire palms of hands in the gravel from a freakish bike accident that was self inflicted if you want the truth! Bottom line.............we survived and have the scars to show off to this day!
Oh don't get me wrong, we had video games! An Atari 2600 so I am dating myself as you can see! Yes I grew up in the 70's into the 80's! But we had much rather went outside and played and gotten hurt than to have gotten finger cramps from a game controller! We were not overweight like the poor kid bastards of today sitting in front of a tv eating a box of Little Debbies or Twinkies! We would grab a cookie on the run to the outside; jump on a bike and pedal like it was the last 100 yards to the TDF finish line. Before we made it that hundred yards we had burned off that damn Chips Ahoy cookie five times over!
Kids now days are heart attacks around the corner. Sedentary life styles and most important lazy ass good for nothing parents that won't take time to take a kid bike riding or exercising or even playing ball whether on a school team or rec. league! I hate the bastard parents more for not incorperating a since of exercise in a kid's daily life. Sorry panty waste of parents in my book.
So yes, you can get hurt riding a bike. You can break your penis during sex but I bet you don't stop having sex because that is a possibility. I could break a tooth bringing a beer up to my lips; trip in the john and hit my head on the porcelain bowl and die! But if that happens..............God wanted me to die that way!
Oh don't get me wrong, we had video games! An Atari 2600 so I am dating myself as you can see! Yes I grew up in the 70's into the 80's! But we had much rather went outside and played and gotten hurt than to have gotten finger cramps from a game controller! We were not overweight like the poor kid bastards of today sitting in front of a tv eating a box of Little Debbies or Twinkies! We would grab a cookie on the run to the outside; jump on a bike and pedal like it was the last 100 yards to the TDF finish line. Before we made it that hundred yards we had burned off that damn Chips Ahoy cookie five times over!
Kids now days are heart attacks around the corner. Sedentary life styles and most important lazy ass good for nothing parents that won't take time to take a kid bike riding or exercising or even playing ball whether on a school team or rec. league! I hate the bastard parents more for not incorperating a since of exercise in a kid's daily life. Sorry panty waste of parents in my book.
So yes, you can get hurt riding a bike. You can break your penis during sex but I bet you don't stop having sex because that is a possibility. I could break a tooth bringing a beer up to my lips; trip in the john and hit my head on the porcelain bowl and die! But if that happens..............God wanted me to die that way!
Yeah, I had an Atari 2600, and I had a Nintendo NES, too. I won't lie; as a kid I wanted an Atari 2600 and NES, but they just didn't quite do it for me. I can't recall EVER sitting in front of a TV playing video games for more than about an hour at a time until I was introduced to Sony Playstation 1 and Gran Turismo. Being a car addict, I fell in love, and I played for SIXTEEN hours straight, only breaking for the bathroom, meals, and a few hours of sleep (I never did it again...). There was nothing like it, and it was so realistic at the time that it was just incredible to me. Those days have come and gone. Gran Turismo is no longer "incredible," and neither are video game systems.
Today, my wife and I own a Nintendo Wii. What can I say, she loves Guitar Hero. I play the guitar, so yeah, I think it's cool, but it's an after-dark or "rainy day" activity, but what's really amazing is that I got this disc from Netflix, and through an internet connection, I can now insert that disc into my Wii and cue up movies on my "Instant Queue" from my account and watch them. We own a 5100 sq ft home, yet we don't even have Cable. Why? Because there are about FOUR shows we'd actually watch. Worth $100+ per month? I don't think so.
In 40 minutes when my wife gets home from work, we will be strapping on helmets and gloves, and be out on a ride until dark, just like every night it isn't raining.
I am proud of my scars that I earned down at the park, or playing baseball, football, or whatever. Just last week, I saw a shirt that read, "scars are tattoos with better stories." I couldn't agree more. My entire knee is a scar, my hands are scarred, my elbows are scarred, my head is scarred from where I wound up with 8 stitches, my knuckles are scarred; Hell, ALMOST (I stress almost) every limb on my body is scarred!
These days, IMO, mountain biking is more dangerous than the BMX riding I EVER did. Am I pushing the boundaries? No, I don't believe so, but I accept the fact that I can get hurt. I accept the fact that I could wind up in pain. I accept the fact that I could add a few more scars to my body. I also accept the fact that it'll be damned well worth it.
I see what I'm doing as a rush, but it's a rush within my limits and the boundaries of the human body. What some of these others do in terms of jumping off 100 foot cliffs, it's no longer about challenging yourself, but gambling with your life; "If I don't make this, I could..."
#20
Fourth Degree Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: American Gardens Building
Posts: 3,826
Bikes: 2005 Kona Cinder Cone & 2010 Cannondale SuperSix
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
From what I've witnessed on this site, I'd say most of you poseaurghs don't have spines to risk.
#21
Lost in the Black Hills
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,725
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
surgery, in general, is a quick fix that leads to eventual failure. I would avoid back surgery as much as possible.
__________________
Tomac Mountain Bikes | Light-Bikes l Magura USA | Industry Nine | Schwalbe Tires | Caffélatex
Tomac Mountain Bikes | Light-Bikes l Magura USA | Industry Nine | Schwalbe Tires | Caffélatex
#22
Single-serving poster
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Here is the actual study... also there are now 666 pages in the mtb section! Ahh
https://ajs.sagepub.com/gca?allch=&su...546510365532v1
https://ajs.sagepub.com/gca?allch=&su...546510365532v1