Akak

Looking at pics of other XC racing hardtails, I see very few bikes that have trouble getting the bars lower than the saddle. With my saddle set at the correct height, my bars are dead even with the saddle. However, I've had to use a very low rise (5 deg) stem, flat bars, and no spacer.

Assuming the saddle height is fixed for the rider's leg length, all the variability comes from the bar height. I originally thought the reason my bars seemed higher than most was because the frame has a very steep downtube and top tube. But a bit more thinking brought me to realize that the tube angles are irrelevant. The dimensions that determine bar height are simply:

Fork dropout-to-crown length + Headset stack height + headtube length + spacers + stem rise

Looking at my bike I see that my head tube is a bit longer than some others at 5" (most are 4" - 5"). But considering I'm using no spacers and a 5 deg rise stem (only adds about 2mm of height), I would still think my bars would be a lot lower.

So that just leaves the fork. My Marzo MX Comp manual says the dropout-to-crown length is 458mm but I can't find the dimensions of any other forks to compare.

Any other ideas as to why my bars are relatively so high? You can look at it in the picture linked in my signature.

hooligan

Frame Geometry says it all. They made it so that the riders are probably aero. You have a more aggressive frame.

hooligan

For example, look at the angle of the top tube on your bike. Then look at it on this one:

snakehunter

WELL I put an MX PRO on my bike and that TOTALLY changed the geom of my bike, but I like it, im 6 1/2ft tall and it actually helped b/c of my long arms and legs. I would look at the specs of your bike online, what model is it?

Akak

It's a Fetish Discipline. Specs are on their web page here https://www.fetishcycles.com/Disipline.html.

I checked some Manitou forks and it looks like the MX Comp is actually shorter than most Manitou forks.

snakehunter

yeah that is a more aggressive frame, the verticle seat tube is shorter.

Akak

Aggressive in what way? Aggressive as an XC racer or as a dirt jumper or something else?

The riding position feels perfect the way it is so I'm not looking to change anything but I was curious as to why the front end looked so high.

Thanks!

hooligan

No..it's casual xc. The ones you're looking at are like enduro/professional xc. AS I said, its more aggressive, being able to take more punishment! Please read my posts and look at the picture.

-Stretch-

that fetish hardtail frame is designed like a dj frame, look at that frame, then look at a frame like the p.2 or the shred....they have similar geometry....that fetish bike looks like an xc/dj bik to me....

Maelstrom 

I am not entirely sure what you are asking. Thats a typical xc frame now. It gives room under your groin to let the bike bounce around. Race bikes still use a more road agressive style with the seat up your butt.

Personally my seat FULLY extended 410mm just hit level with the handle bars on one bike. On another the seat is level at my riding position and my bighit the seat is level but the whole bike is kinda short It depends on your riding style and what you consider agressive.

Akak

My main question is what is contributing to the handlebar height. I'm not entirely convinced it's frame geometry.

Like I posted originally, the height of the handlebar has little to do with frame geometry. Other than varying the head tube *angle*, which slightly impacts the handlebar height, the geometry doesn't change the bar height.

pnj

you are correct about that statement.

I don't have an answer for you though.

tire size, fork length, head tube length, headset spacers, stem and bars contribute to the height.....but you knew that already.

*edit*
actually, the head tube angle will come into play as well. I don't think the other angles would matter as much, but if you had a, say 90 degree, head tube angle, (this would be WAY extreme of course) your bars would be even higher then they are now)

do you know what the head tube angle of your bike is? I would think that most frame manufactures (higher end ones of course, no wal-mart bikes) would have simillar frame geometry.......

Maelstrom 

Ahhhh...ok you were asking the opposite to what I thought.

You are correct. But again, while you are asking a question, I am not sure what. You seem to have answered your own question.

tFUnK

it's because you are short? the front end is a fixed height more or less. i mean it depends on your head tube length and fork, but it cannot be shorter than a certain length (with zero stack headset and no rise stem). if you were taller you'd be able to extend the seatpost up further. how much you extended the seatpost also depends on your seat tube length, which in your case, you have a dirtjump/bmx-ish geometry. i wouldn't call that frame geometry XC at all imho. if you want a lower front end, get a steep stem then flip it. my bike has a 8" steer tube on the fork, and i'm running a low-rise stem flipped downward. the seattube is 21" ct. i'm 5'11", but if i was say, 5'8" or something, my seatpost would be 3" lower and my seat would no longer come above my handlebars. so i doubt it's the frame geometry.

seely

The frame is built around a 100mm fork, and you are running a 120mm fork, right? So couple that with the fact that Marzocchi forks tend to be longer than others (say a Fox), the fact you have about an extra inch of travel, you are going to have a high, slack front end, not to mention that the Discipline, though an XC frame, borrows its geometry from the DJ camp. Good looking bike though!

Al.canoe

I think it's a "quirk" of the frame design and has little to do with the intended use of the bike. My relatively new Stump Jumper, in size large yet, has plenty of head-tube space to allow me to have the bars about 2" below the seat. My previous bike was more of a medium frame.

According to Ned Overend's book, the best set up for XC is a 45 degree back-angle with a stem-length that allows quick egress of the posterior to well behind the seat. On mountain bikes, I have to set the bars about 2" below the seat to get that 45 degrees once I adjust the reach to the bars to facilitate the behind-the-seat thing.

I also use 45 degree back angle for my road bike. There I prefer the bars (flats) to be the same height as the seat and use a longer stem to get the 45 degrees by stretching out.

I really like the bars lower than the seat on the mountain bike. It could be psychological, but I seem to have much more control and can pedal harder. It's just more fun.

Al

cryogenic

My seat is dead-even with my bars on my Hardrock Pro. I have the stem flipped, though. It's a 10 degree rise stem and I could never quite get a comfortable position with it in its normal position. So I had the bike shop flip it and I raised the seat up even with my bars and it's quite a bit more comfortable now.

Killer B

Man, Akak what a Loooooong seat post you have there..... Sure hope you have about 3" still inside the frame....

Akak

Yeah, the MIN line is about an inch inside the seat tube. It's actually Thompson's short post (330mm, I think).

And that's sorta what confused me about the setup. Like folks mentioned above, the reason that my bars are relatively high (even instead of below the saddle) is that I'm short. At 5'6" my saddle isn't high enough to overcome the longer fork length on today's suspension forks. BUT, the frame geometry of the Fetish causes so much seatpost to be exposed that it APPEARS to be long.

In reality, then, my saddle is just low because of my short little legs even though it doesn't look low on that fram.

Al.canoe

For comparison, my wife is 5' 7''. Her handlebars are even with the seat. I just measured that there is enough space to drop the bars about two inches.

Then too, the fork compresses when you put weight on it. She probably has her bars 3/4 of an inch or so below the seat when she's on the bike.

I wonder if anybody considers the compression of the fork in setting bar height. I know I don't, yet it would seem logical to do so. At least then I'd be consistent between my road bike and my mountain bike.

Some frame designs have a higher bottom bracket than others. That increases the seat height. There is 3/4" difference between the BB height of my old touring road frame and my new cyclocross road frame. I don't know about mountain bikes.

Al