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Why reccommend hardtail?

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Why reccommend hardtail?

Old 07-19-13, 10:22 AM
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Pavao
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Why reccommend hardtail?

I never get this, almost 100% of the time when shopping for a new bike, sales people always try to push you a hardtail when full suspension is out of reach of my budget, it feels like their thinking is, if I can't afford a full suspension at least they'll make a sale and grab my money by giving me what my money can buy, not what I want/need.

But a quick reading here shows that it happens just as frequently on the forum too, why is that? Aren't they 2 complete separate things?
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Old 07-19-13, 10:36 AM
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I don't understand the question. You can't afford a full-suspension, but you don't like that you're recommended a hardtail? What do you expect them to do?

Here's a little secret: bike shop owners don't open their stores expecting to become multi-millionaires. Yes, they're a business, and sales are important, but no one goes into that industry to strike it rich...they go in because they have a passion for bikes. And they want to get you on the best bike for you that you can afford.
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Old 07-19-13, 10:37 AM
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What kind of riding do you plan for it?
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Old 07-19-13, 10:45 AM
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If you are just getting into Mountain Biking is a good option. Some of the best racers in the world compete on Hardtails. (Nino Schureter-Scott Scale) Others prefer full suspension. BUT, then again, not many of us here are competing at that level. BUT we all enjoy riding. I now ride my Full Suspension whenever dirt is involved.

I started way back with a rigid bike, most of us did. I learned some important riding skills. Don't be afraid of a hardtail, you can get better components than if you try to get a Full Susp. The biggest thing is to get a bike that you enjoy riding. Sounds like for right now you have Single Malt Taste Scotch on a Budweiser budget.

AND yeah-people who get a portion of the sale really want to get into your pocket. I know, every dollar I make is a commission based dollar!
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Old 07-19-13, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Pavao View Post
I never get this, almost 100% of the time when shopping for a new bike, sales people always try to push you a hardtail when full suspension is out of reach of my budget, it feels like their thinking is, if I can't afford a full suspension at least they'll make a sale and grab my money by giving me what my money can buy, not what I want/need.

But a quick reading here shows that it happens just as frequently on the forum too, why is that? Aren't they 2 complete separate things?
As a bike shop employee who rides a hardtail, what would you have me tell you? I'm sorry, your SOL? A hardtail can accomplish most everything that a FSR can, with less maintenance and a lower price point. Hell, two of my fellow shop employees are selling their FSRs because a hardtail is more practical on the terrain we have in the area.
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Old 07-19-13, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Daspydyr View Post
AND yeah-people who get a portion of the sale really want to get into your pocket. I know, every dollar I make is a commission based dollar!
And not all shops operate with a commission. I work in a smaller shop - we get paid a better base rate and have no incentive to sell you on something you don't need. I fit the user to a type of bike, and then I fit the bike to the user. That's it. Margins suck on bike sales anyway. I want you to buy a bike that you like, that you will ride, and that you will bring back for service when needed. Hopefully you'll buy some accessories, where the margins are more tenable.
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Old 07-19-13, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Embrey View Post
What kind of riding do you plan for it?
This kind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of-0_n8Mmy8

lots of bumps, rocks, roots and obstacles
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Old 07-19-13, 10:53 AM
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Oh yeah, I forgot to add the speed factor, seems like 100% of shop employees are into racing, and even if they are not, that is THE theme when selling bikes, that is not my thing, I'm just there for the outdoors, for the fun, for the exercise
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Old 07-19-13, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Pavao View Post
This kind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of-0_n8Mmy8

lots of bumps, rocks, roots and obstacles
Looks like you need to save up a little more, find a layaway or credit program, or buy used.
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Old 07-19-13, 12:00 PM
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I thought about used and actually looked into a few, but having no clue what is good and what's worth what was kinda hard to know if I was getting a good deal or worst, getting something that wasn't worth anything and being stuck with it.
It honestly seemed like a safer route to just buy a BSO from a Sports Authority type place while I achieve a better financial situation to where I can afford what I really want. In the mean time I'm still able to achieve the end goal, sweat, get outdoors and put a smile on my face!
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Old 07-19-13, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Daspydyr View Post
I started way back with a rigid bike, most of us did. I learned some important riding skills. Don't be afraid of a hardtail, you can get better components than if you try to get a Full Susp. The biggest thing is to get a bike that you enjoy riding. Sounds like for right now you have Single Malt Taste Scotch on a Budweiser budget.

:
THIS! ^

I started out on a fully rigid bike 'cause at the time that was all there was (1984). Used that until I could afford a bike with a front fork (I think the travel was 2" or so).

Long story short, I am riding a nicely appointed full suspension bike - but I "earned" it. I've learned skills using a rigid that you can't learn if starting out on a fully. Also, a cheap full suspension bike can be dangerous. Trust me... had a friend do too much on a $350 allegedly full suspension bike only to be seriously injured when the front fork separated from said bike.

Get the best you can afford - if that's a hardtail, embrace it. Once you learn skills, and know something about bikes and what sort of riding you plan to do, start looking for a good use fully... lots are out there.
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Old 07-19-13, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pavao View Post
It honestly seemed like a safer route to just buy a BSO from a Sports Authority type place while I achieve a better financial situation to where I can afford what I really want. In the mean time I'm still able to achieve the end goal, sweat, get outdoors and put a smile on my face!
You risk your life... just saying... but buy what you want - just remember - you get what you pay for. I suggest you do some internet research - learned something about bikes and what they are used for, understand components, frame materials, suspension, pivot points, maintenance needs etc. If you are clueless, I would get the simplest bike possible. I rode hardtail for many years and never had difficulty clearing ruts, roots, rocks, drops, etc.

Just saw your other thread... you already bought a bike - so why ask this question? Never second guess choices...
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Old 07-19-13, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
THIS! ^

...Get the best you can afford - ...
That, that is the key right there!

Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
You risk your life... just saying...
Not like I never rode one, for 4+ years, 3+ times a week every week, before it was stolen
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Old 07-19-13, 12:11 PM
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Most of them think a front suspension is just as much fun to ride for someone that doesn't have the budget, and you can get better component sets for a lot less. Since they are always dealing with components, it's an easy conclusion to make. While I personally am glad to have a full-suspension bike and rarely if ever use the lockout functions, front or back, a lot of folks think you can get the power down better with a hard tail. I actually find the squat of the rear to be more to my liking while climbing though. I'm glad I found a way to spend more on it in the end. One thing is for sure though, the cheapest of full-suspension options will suck if you're below $1K.
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Old 07-19-13, 12:17 PM
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But anyways, before this turns into everyone coming here to tell me something I already know (THAT BIG STORE BIKES ARE BSO AND POS) the point of the original post was that no one has ever been able to explain me the difference about a hardtail and full suspension, aside from it being faster, everything else I hear is pretty vague
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Old 07-19-13, 12:37 PM
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From your Youtube video I would think that a hardtail would be a good choice.

In my experience, riding desert southwest, lots of rocks and sand. Here is a taste of one of our trails at Bootleg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyZme7XYhcQ

This hack is riding full suspension, but hardtail guys ride it as well. The full suspension smooths out landings and makes handling when getting across rocky washouts smoother. The rear suspension pushes the rear tire back down quickly so you have better contact with the trail surface. In my experience that is valuable. A hardtail rear end tends to dance around.
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Old 07-19-13, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pavao View Post
But anyways, before this turns into everyone coming here to tell me something I already know (THAT BIG STORE BIKES ARE BSO AND POS) the point of the original post was that no one has ever been able to explain me the difference about a hardtail and full suspension, aside from it being faster, everything else I hear is pretty vague
So you haven't ridden them?

I'll agree about some bike store salesman just being slimebags. I dealt with a few, hearing the same stuff. I get some of things they were getting at, but I actually was sufficiently pissed off by one that didn't explain differences enough that as ready as I was to buy something, I went somewhere else instead. Then later when I got a new vehicle and wanted a rack for it, but still looking not to spend too much on the extra item, I had to go that store again. I got handed over to him as I was asking about a rack that was on sale but not in stock. The first thing this ******* says is "what kind of bike would you put on this cheap rack?" implying that it would break and lose my bike because it wasn't one of their more expensive racks. I told him I was going to put his moms bike on the rack and walked out again without buying anything. I went without a rack for a couple more months until I could splurge and went to another store again. This dude lost that store 2-grand in sales in just two short meetings. And no, he couldn't explain the difference between a hard tail or full suspension either, just pointed out that the full suspension at my price point were dog ****. He was right about that, but never could effectively show me why I should spend an extra thousand on anything, let alone an extra $200 on a rack. Just a sales dog in his own little world.

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Old 07-19-13, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Pavao View Post
... no one has ever been able to explain me the difference about a hardtail and full suspension, aside from it being faster, everything else I hear is pretty vague
Cheap suspension sucks so the more suspension on the bike, the more you need to spend.

If you're spending less than $500 I'd suggest rigid (although there aren't many sweet $500 rigids out there these days). Less than $1200-ish, hardtail.
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Old 07-19-13, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Daspydyr View Post
... The full suspension smooths out landings and makes handling when getting across rocky washouts smoother. The rear suspension pushes the rear tire back down quickly so you have better contact with the trail surface. In my experience that is valuable. A hardtail rear end tends to dance around.
Perfect, that is the type response I expect from whom I believe to be the "experts" that are selling me a bike, and everything you're saying here I somehow already knew, basic understanding of what they do and common sense tells me that(hardtail will bounce around more, more likely for me to eat $#!%) but it's reassuring hearing it from a more experienced rider.
Gonna watch video now...
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Old 07-19-13, 12:59 PM
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The rear does the same thing as the front when it is suspended. My feel of a lot of hardtails is that they feel like you've got two different bikes, one in the front and one in the rear. Even some full suspension bikes I've tried can feel like that, not connected or not in sync. When the shock is pumped too hard for my weight, same thing. A hard tail is supposed to be able to put more power down, due to less hop, but I find it just puts the power into the tire and requires you to run a tire pressure that is so hard that it limits rear grip, especially on the brakes and makes the whole thing bouncy, either as it dances off of obstacles out of sync with the front or if the tire pressure is low enough for good feel, it will bounce with the power stroke on a climb. In my experience, the right shock settings make for a smoother ride in all respects and a lot more grip at the rear whether climbing or braking, or flying around corners, going over obstacles, etc, while maintaining pedaling rhythm.
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Old 07-19-13, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Pavao View Post
Perfect, that is the type response I expect from whom I believe to be the "experts" that are selling me a bike, and everything you're saying here I somehow already knew, basic understanding of what they do and common sense tells me that(hardtail will bounce around more, more likely for me to eat $#!%) but it's reassuring hearing it from a more experienced rider.
Gonna watch video now...
Sounds like you know it all already... and you already bought the bike so not certain your point. Shops need to move product - alot of people on the floor aren't really experts, they are salespeople. It's up to you to educate yourself so you know, going in, what works best for you. Since you already made a choice, I assume you did that already and again, don't second guess your decision - it's not like you can change your mind already.
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Old 07-19-13, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
Sounds like you know it all already... and you already bought the bike so not certain your point. Shops need to move product - alot of people on the floor aren't really experts, they are salespeople. It's up to you to educate yourself so you know, going in, what works best for you. Since you already made a choice, I assume you did that already and again, don't second guess your decision - it's not like you can change your mind already.
Jesus man, my posts are really getting you all that frustrated?!?!?!?
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Old 07-19-13, 02:40 PM
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Us older riders get grumpy easy, we enjoy it. AND DON'T EVER RIDE THAT BIKE ACROSS MY YARD!
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Old 07-19-13, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
Sounds like you know it all already... and you already bought the bike so not certain your point. Shops need to move product - alot of people on the floor aren't really experts, they are salespeople. It's up to you to educate yourself so you know, going in, what works best for you. Since you already made a choice, I assume you did that already and again, don't second guess your decision - it's not like you can change your mind already.
For me there was a lot of frustration involved between trying to figure out the differences in components and price points and even just the different categories of bikes, knowing the range of prices and all the different brand options, only to go into a couple stores that had too little help, ******bag help, and only so many bikes in stock. I eventually found the right shop, where they were young guys that knew a lot but were not too into their own thing to be helpful to others. When all you want to do is try to meet your budget and everyone is telling you that you have to double or triple it or you're just buying garbage, it's hard to swallow after all the research you've tried to do beforehand. In the end, you just gotta go find some options to ride and the important thing is to know how to get them set-up so that you can feel differences that aren't just adjustment or size related. I was convinced I knew exactly the right $500 bike, but I didn't even have to get on it to suddenly understand some key differences in feel and quality. That was heartbreaking after spending so much time trying to get the best value for a low budget, while just wanting to get out there and ride again, in relative comfort and reliability. Too often with the sales help, they just compounded that frustration, sometimes being insulting without even realizing it because it wasn't their money.
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Old 07-19-13, 03:20 PM
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Obviously I have many friends who want to buy bikes and are clueless. I tell them this:

(1) be patient - do alot of research. Cool thing about the internet, there is almost too much information available. Know what bikes cost and what you can generally get for a certain amount of money.

(2) go to as many bike shops as possible and don't be afraid to ask questions. What questions? These like:
a) how do I know if the bike fits properly? How is fit decided?
b) Is this bike easy to maintain - can I do it myself?
c) are the components easily upgraded?
d) do people bring these bike in with problems and if so what are they. [Generally there are also lots of websites devoted to complaints on certain bikes]
e) What kind of warranty is provided? What happens when something fails?
d) Does the shop have a good return policy? [some shops will allow 30 days to return]
f) what is the difference between Sram and Shimano and what do you recommend and why?
g) why should I choose the bike recommended? Are there other brands/chooses I should consider?

I could go on but bottom line in a low price range ($500 or less) there is not alot of choice. The shop should be honest with you and say "this bike is inexpensive which means ride it with caution and you should not do jumps, drops, etc. with it. Of course there is a substantial difference between a $500 and a $5000 bike. But with all bikes in the $500 range, there is little difference...

and I always recommend go bike shopping with someone who knows bikes, even if you don't know them that well. At least the person will be able to talk the same language with the shop re components etc.

Don't blame the shop unless they were rude and condesending... no excuse for that.. but they can only do so much with a low end budget. Nothing wrong with starting at that level, most of us do... buy the bike, ride it and then start looking for something better.
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