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Great Brake Debate

Old 07-22-13, 05:13 PM
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Great Brake Debate

Let's discuss brakes:

I have never ridden extensively with hydros and my little time with them was so-so. The rear brake was some of average Shimano and was about as good as sticking your shoe on the tire. The front was an Elixir 3 I believe and was fine on the Kona Dawg with the 180 rotor. Now, I am riding the rigid, SS, 29er Surly Karate Monkey which has BB7's and they are fine for stopping but the modulation between stopping and just wanting to take a hair of speed off is hard to achieve.

So what say you? What are your experiences with different brakes and set ups on bikes and such? Is there a certain line in the hydro world you need to go over to be getting a brake that won't break and will still perform well or is it all in the adjustment?
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Old 07-22-13, 05:36 PM
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I went full disc in '05, and have never regretted it. Front disc/rear V didn't do the job.... I also went with a larger rotor, and that made the needed difference.

I now use BB7 with 185 rotors, front and rear, on my Kona Coiler. What I discovered a couple years ago was how much difference the cable/housing you use makes! I tried out XTR cables/housing, and the feel at the lever was AWESOME! Stock discs need a little extra attention, but CAN be optimized. I also ran ceramic pads in my BB7's for almost four years, and they add a further dimension of quality. Just wish I could find MORE now.

craig, if modulation is an issue for your BB7's, try one sintered pad (which it sounds like you already have installed) and one organic pad in the caliper; basically, just pull one pad out and replace it on each wheel. (If the ceramics were still out there, it'd be a HANDS-DOWN endorsement -- nothing's better!)

I'm a big guy, and the 185 rotors do a great job; 203's are a bit of overkill for me. I've looked at hydro's (Avid Code R), and money aside, they'd have to almost pitch me over the bar to make me choose them over what I have.
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Old 07-22-13, 05:58 PM
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I have had: BB7s; Hayes Mag HDs; Hayes Stroker Trails; Hayes Stroker Aces; Hayes Prime Pros (in that order) and now a set of Elixir 5s (on my SB66 - - shhh, don't tell Hayes).

I was so glad to get hydros and have been pleased and impressed with the whole Stroker line. The Stroker Trails were a favorite and they're still going strong on my son's DH bike. I REALLY liked the power of the 4-pot Stroker Aces but then why not . . . they're a DH brake. I have the Prime Pros on my DH bike now and, true to what my rep promised, they are even more powerful than the Aces - - yet still have all of the modulation that I've always liked about Hayes brakes. I really like the poppet-valve adjustment, where lever reach and modulation can be separated: I have kinda short fingers, so I like to dial in the reach, yet still need to have the progressive power to full brake in that shorter throw.

So far I've found the Elixir 5s to be a fine brake. Granted I haven't pushed them as hard as my other ones yet; but the descents I've put them through so far have proved them up to the task.
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Old 07-22-13, 06:53 PM
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I have M785 XT discs. Best brakes I've ever had. No noise, very powerful.

I've had LX V's, XTR V's, couple other V's and cantilevers, Magura Hydro rim brakes, Avid Mech discs, and Elixr 1's.

All the latest Avid's are horrible. The Elixr's were awful.
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Old 07-22-13, 07:59 PM
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OP, I've had the opposite experience to yours. I"ve had BB-5-s in the past, currently have BB-7s on my son's bike, (my old Rockhopper) and have Avid hydros on my two bikes now. The hydro's work great, but IMHO, the BB7's modulate better. If you have the BB-7s set up for a quick response with very little travel in the brake lever, then it won't modulate that well. Ours is set up with full brake stop at about half the available travel in the lever and that seems to provide the best modulation without sacrificing any suddent brake response. No doubt the hydro's provide a great brake, but IMHO, the response is so quick that they don't modulate as well. Took me a while to get used to.
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Old 07-22-13, 08:45 PM
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I have BB7-Road on my CX bike. Granted, they are pulling through a road lever, which really doesn't work near as well as a flat bar lever, despite SRAM going through the trouble of marketing and releasing the "road" version. (In fact it looks the same as BB7-MTN to me, but what do I know.)

There is no way they are in the ballpark of a good hydraulic caliper. Not even close. No how, no way. If you think otherwise it probably means you have not used a good hydraulic brake.

I cannot imagine anyone that rides all mountain or gravity who is interested in going back to mechanical discs. It will tire the heck out of your hands, and might require you to use more than one finger... I kind of need my other 3 fingers to hold onto the handlebar, so that's not good.

However, mechanical discs are perfectly fine for XC, road and paths.
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Old 07-23-13, 06:54 AM
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I have a decent set of wet brakes, nothing fancy or vogue, they work fantastic ! I would not ride single track on mech's anymore...

Wet Brakes shine when they get,,, wet XD
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Old 07-23-13, 04:00 PM
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interesting opinions coming in. I too have mech road discs and they stop very well with all of the mountain road riding I do.

I do find myself using at least two fingers on the brakes while on the MTB which I am not a fan of as it is a rigid and jumps around quite a bit on the rocky stuff. So that is another point for moving to hydros on my current ride.

What have been peoples experiences with bleeding/maintenance work on hydros? I don't have a specific set in mind as of yet and I don't make much money so this is all preemptive research for a later time.
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Old 07-23-13, 07:14 PM
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My bike has Shimano SLX hydraulics. I really like them. I bought it over a year ago (spring 2012). The only brake maintenance I've done has been the occasional (like once or twice) adjustment for rubbing.
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Old 07-23-13, 08:10 PM
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Shimano hydraulics have a bleed valve just like a car's caliper. Which makes it rather easy to put a hose on, submerge in fluid, and bleed.

Systems without a bleed valve where you have to bleed at the reservoir are no fun at all.
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Old 07-23-13, 09:04 PM
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Elixir has been great for me love the modulation. Buy the proper bleed kit follow instructions no problem with maintenance so far.
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Old 07-23-13, 11:27 PM
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Honestly, the only times I have ever bled my bike systems have been when I've installed them new or shortened hoses, never for maintenance issues. Just have not had any (Well, I take that back - - I had a sticky m/c lever return on my Stroker Trail when I raced Crankworx in '09 - - but was able to take it to the Hayes tent and they took care of it for me; so technically I didn't do it haha). Unlike a car, bike systems are completely sealed, closed systems, so there is no such thing as moisture build-up or fluid contamination if there are no leaks. If you bled your brakes properly on setup, you shouldn't have to again unless some other maintenance issue arises. That's been my experience with all my Hayes anyway. My Stroker Trails were one of the first-gen models and besides Crankworx, they've never been touched since. My son's only had to change pads.
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Old 07-23-13, 11:44 PM
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I run BB7's on my Pug with linear pull road levers (on drop bars)... all it takes is one finger as the action is very light and responsive, and is much better than the stock Avid levers I had on the flat bar.

Hydros are great but well set up mechanical discs can also handle anything.

My Rocky Mountain Blizzard still runs XTR dual pivot V brakes and the stopping power is more than adequate and as good as any disc set up I have used... they are mated to Avid levers which improve the braking over the stock Shimanos.

The Kona Explosif I am building up with have XTR cantis with matching XTR STI for XC riding... have run this set up on other bikes and the braking is excellent.
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Old 07-24-13, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by craigcraigcraig View Post
interesting opinions coming in. I too have mech road discs and they stop very well with all of the mountain road riding I do.

I do find myself using at least two fingers on the brakes while on the MTB which I am not a fan of as it is a rigid and jumps around quite a bit on the rocky stuff. So that is another point for moving to hydros on my current ride.

What have been peoples experiences with bleeding/maintenance work on hydros? I don't have a specific set in mind as of yet and I don't make much money so this is all preemptive research for a later time.
You are running BB7 road calipers with regular MTB Linear Pull type levers? That could be the source of the lack of modulation. Road calipers are designed to work with the amount of cable pull that a road lever will pull. A MTB lever pulls much more cable and while you could lock your brakes up easily and stop, you wouldn't experience the modulation that it was designed for.
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Old 07-24-13, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
I have BB7-Road on my CX bike. Granted, they are pulling through a road lever, which really doesn't work near as well as a flat bar lever, despite SRAM going through the trouble of marketing and releasing the "road" version. (In fact it looks the same as BB7-MTN to me, but what do I know.)

There is no way they are in the ballpark of a good hydraulic caliper. Not even close. No how, no way. If you think otherwise it probably means you have not used a good hydraulic brake.

I cannot imagine anyone that rides all mountain or gravity who is interested in going back to mechanical discs. It will tire the heck out of your hands, and might require you to use more than one finger... I kind of need my other 3 fingers to hold onto the handlebar, so that's not good.

However, mechanical discs are perfectly fine for XC, road and paths.
Its the same caliper except its designed for the different amount of cable pull that road levers provide.
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Old 07-24-13, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by C Law View Post
Its the same caliper except its designed for the different amount of cable pull that road levers provide.
Yep, but I am thoroughly disappointed in them. The lever travel is still FAR greater than a road lever pulling a rim brake. Whatever leverage ratio was changed in the caliper, they need to double that.
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Old 07-24-13, 10:29 AM
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I had BB-7 on my hardtail. I liked em. But I weigh 225, probably more like 235 when I was riding the HT. I was able to get modulation, but I suspect it had to do with my weight and wanting to modulate on downhills. Personally I thought they were a very worthy system compared to the SLX brakes it came with.

My FS Scott has XT Discs and I have never had to do anything except put new rotors on. It is sweet. No maintenance at all, stops when I want to. I do get a squeal at weird times. It comes and goes.
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Old 07-24-13, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by C Law View Post
You are running BB7 road calipers with regular MTB Linear Pull type levers? That could be the source of the lack of modulation. Road calipers are designed to work with the amount of cable pull that a road lever will pull. A MTB lever pulls much more cable and while you could lock your brakes up easily and stop, you wouldn't experience the modulation that it was designed for.
no sorry to be confusing. I have BB5's on the cross bike with road lever and I think they are great just haven't quite had that experience with the BB7's on the MTB
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Old 07-24-13, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
....
I cannot imagine anyone that rides all mountain or gravity who is interested in going back to mechanical discs. It will tire the heck out of your hands, and might require you to use more than one finger... I kind of need my other 3 fingers to hold onto the handlebar, so that's not good.

However, mechanical discs are perfectly fine for XC, road and paths.
And that is the key - what type of riding you do... I tend to stick to XC so mechanical brakes are fine for me. I started out with Hydraulics on all my bikes but had too many issues and problems; sticking problems, noises... just drove me nuts! Plus I did not have the skills to maintain a hydraulic brake and I hate running to a shop so I've replaced them all with mechanicals (BB7)... now no problems. As to stopping power; I agree hydraulics are stronger (one or two fingers) but even as a big gal, I am able to slow/stop my bike without a problem. But then again I started out MTB a long time ago when we have side pulls and rotary brakes. I thought V Brakes were the bomb... so I am really happy with mechanical discs.

I think one has to consider 1) type of riding and 2)ability to maintain the equipment. For me, has to be practical; something i can do myself.
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Old 07-24-13, 05:58 PM
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I recenty bought a Specialized Secteur sport disc and did a flat bar conversion on it. It came with BB5's and when I did the conversion all I had for levers were a set from my last conversion that had short pull calipers on it. I really like the way they feel with the short pull levers. There is plenty of stopping power and they are easy to modulate.

That being said I just ordered a set of Formula hydro's for it with larger discs.
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Old 07-24-13, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
I have BB7-Road on my CX bike. Granted, they are pulling through a road lever, which really doesn't work near as well as a flat bar lever, despite SRAM going through the trouble of marketing and releasing the "road" version. (In fact it looks the same as BB7-MTN to me, but what do I know.)

There is no way they are in the ballpark of a good hydraulic caliper. Not even close. No how, no way. If you think otherwise it probably means you have not used a good hydraulic brake.

I cannot imagine anyone that rides all mountain or gravity who is interested in going back to mechanical discs. It will tire the heck out of your hands, and might require you to use more than one finger... I kind of need my other 3 fingers to hold onto the handlebar, so that's not good.

However, mechanical discs are perfectly fine for XC, road and paths.
I use bb7's, 185 rotors, and can do one-finger stops all day; two-finger pulls can bounce my 'jewelry' off the stem. Doesn't sound like it'd be tiring....

Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
And that is the key - what type of riding you do... I tend to stick to XC so mechanical brakes are fine for me. I started out with Hydraulics on all my bikes but had too many issues and problems; sticking problems, noises... just drove me nuts! Plus I did not have the skills to maintain a hydraulic brake and I hate running to a shop so I've replaced them all with mechanicals (BB7)... now no problems. As to stopping power; I agree hydraulics are stronger (one or two fingers) but even as a big gal, I am able to slow/stop my bike without a problem. But then again I started out MTB a long time ago when we have side pulls and rotary brakes. I thought V Brakes were the bomb... so I am really happy with mechanical discs.

I think one has to consider 1) type of riding and 2)ability to maintain the equipment. For me, has to be practical; something i can do myself.
I have tried hydro's (short-term, did not own), and I wish Shimano still made XTR brake cables; combine BB7 with XTR cables, carbon levers (mine are TRP), and ceramic pads, and I'll match them up against anything short of Avid Codes. The FEEL, the modulation, the power...ALL PERFECT.
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Old 07-24-13, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
I use bb7's, 185 rotors, and can do one-finger stops all day; two-finger pulls can bounce my 'jewelry' off the stem. Doesn't sound like it'd be tiring....
pretty simple logic, really. when I ride downhill, I get arm pump from covering and using the brakes. this is after some time, say like 1-2 hours.

mechanical discs take more lever effort. therefore, not a good thing downhill. when hydraulic brakes didn't exist, people used mechanical discs and linear pulls, and before that, even cantilevers. I get that. people used to ride rigid bikes downhill too, but I wouldn't do it now.
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Old 07-24-13, 11:23 PM
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I ran some very meticulously set up BB7's ith Paull levers, full housing runs front and rear on a few bikes for a few years. They worked great. XC and DH riding, lots of long descending. Easy to maintain and set up. Can be found cheaply. XC and DH riding, lots of long descending.

Ahem. Good hydraulics are better. They don't take me any more or less time in the work stand. They modulate better. They overheat less. They induce less "claw hand" after a long day of DH'ing. If on a budget, cost can be a wash between the two if you shop carefully.

Caveat: just my opinion. This assumes well set up hydraulics vs. well set up mechanicals. I'll take a good set of mechs over crappy hydros any day. Otherwise, yeah, lots of variables. Buy what suits your needs and budget.
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