zacster

These two bike lanes have been in place for a number of years now, and while I use them frequently, I'm still don't think they are all that great. I was in Copenhagen last week and used a bike there and just felt like this was so much more bike friendly in design. On our avenues, we are somewhat trapped in the lanes with nowhere to go. Cars turn left in front of us, we can't avoid the mindless pedestrians, we can't be seen by the drivers since we are boxed in by the parked cars and we can't even get by each other. Before the lanes were put in I was riding on these two avenues and felt like I was part of the traffic and could maneuver around. Now I just can't, unless I ride outside the lanes.

What do you think? Good? Bad? Better than the alternative?

Jarrettsin

I just did a loop of the City this weekend and had to use 1st Ave for some of it. I didn't feel it was so bad! Much better then the ones that are just painted lines, it was blocked much less!
And was able to move along pretty well. Not sure what you guys want, no way to avoid cross streets. I would have preferred the east side greenway continued, would like to see them hook up all the different parts of the east side the way the west side is.

Cyclemeter

zacster

There's no way to avoid cross streets, but I feel the bike lane doesn't allow traffic to see you the way it is set up. And this being NYC people sometimes idle in the turn lane, making it even harder for someone actually making a turn.
I usually am in the during the week, but I also occasionally use them on a weekend and they aren't as difficult to navigate.

I sometimes think it would be better if the lane were on the right, with parked cars at the curb and bus islands so you are not mixing with the buses making stops. It would also be better if NYC cyclists would obey the traffic lights, but that's an entirely different issue.

UniChris

Yeah, but then you'd get circumstances like the young lady I watched going north on 2nd, screaming the at the southbound delivery guys for "going the wrong way" (!)

I don't cycle vehicularly in Manhattan (in fact largely I just walk around town since it's better exercise, and only ride the greenways or Westchester trails) but when I was younger and bolder bike commuting in Cambridge MA, I did sort of resent some of the early protected bike lanes put in for the very reason that they felt like they spoiled the integration and hopefully resulting mutual awareness with traffic, only to then dump bikes suddenly back in with cars at intersections, which seemed like the most troubling part to begin with.

One that particularly bothered me was just a block long and actually across the sidewalk from a street that was eminently rideable, and from which I needed to make an ordinary mid-block left turn into the minor campus service entrance nearest my lab - I really dreaded the idea of being yelled at to use that one, as it was utterly useless.

I rode the 1st avenue lane northbound precisely once, and the absurdly short distance between intersections on an avenue just made it feel like constant intersection hassle, with no actual riding in between.

Getting the UN bypass actually built would be great. No doubt they'll block it off several times a year (and people complain about fleet week...). In a way, once you get past all the cruft in the 30's and 20's the east side is actually more continuous than the west with only the stoplight at the stinky pier, and less crowded, too. Unfortunately, the only places I ever contemplated using it to regularly go to were just a block or two beyond all that, and far from the river which bows way out there anyway, so it was kind of pointless.

vol

A lot of near-left hooks on 2nd avenue when I rode on it. It becomes very hectic and confusing when near the 59th-60th st. (the bike lane moved from the leftmost to the middle of the avenue, then terminated abruptly\y as far as I remember, as if they don't know how to design it in that intersection).. Still, it's better than without bike lanes. At least it feels safer when riding with other cyclists in the same lane.

I hope they make as many bike lanes protected by medians as possible.

I think some parts of the 1st avenue has bad road surface.

Jarrettsin

UniChris

Hmm, not sure that's a good idea. I ride the Ocean Parkway lane in a group event each fall. It's apparently the nation's first PBL (dating from 1894!!), in the median between the service road and main road, and it's a horrible design for interaction with turning traffic, excusable only because they didn't yet know better and the thought counts. It pretty much only works because we have someone dismount and cork the intersection.

I suppose the upside is you know where you need to worry about getting hit, and where you don't.

orewatsuyoi

Jarrettsin

In the City my head is on a swivel anyway! But I take whatever separation from the cars, buses, trucks, I can get!

noglider 

I guess the question concerns the design of lanes that are between the curb and a row of parked cars.

I understand the good intentions but find it too flawed. I manage with it, and I don't refuse to ride in them. I don't refuse because I don't require a perfect facility, and I have good nerves and skills and vision. One problem the city has (and has in common with other places) is that there are some people who are willing to ride only if they feel sufficiently protected. This design seems to help get people out there who otherwise might not ride. The trouble is that it's more dangerous than designs that look dangerous to those people. So we lure them into a feeling of safety and subject them to danger. That's worse than doing nothing. Just because something is something does not mean it's better than nothing.

Even worse are the bike lanes that are placed in the door zone. Someone recently died from riding in one of those. He hit a door that swung open recently, and the impact threw him into the adjacent traffic lane. A truck ran him over and killed him. A lack of bike lanes is better than door zone bike lanes. But the idea is hard to convey and make people happy with.

orewatsuyoi

same man.. for what it's worth, i think the city has done a good job in the past 5-10 years of implementing bike lanes in the outer boroughs such as queens and bk

vol

Were you referring to this accident? NYPD: Bicyclist is Dead After Being Run Over By Box Truck in Long Island City
Agree on what you say, but in that particular case it seems there was no bike lane there (see also one negative comment about the cyclist). (Hard to imagine the shock of the person at the scene who opened the car door).

[addendum: in that case, although the truck driver was unlicensed, it was apparently the fault of the dooring woman. One comment in a related article said the bicyclist landed between the front and rear wheels of the truck after being doored; there was no way the truck driver could have even know what's happening. But the truck driver was fined, the dooring woman was not, and the [url=https://qns.com/story/2018/06/05/queens-senator-calls-bill-passage-deadly-lic-crash-involving-unlicensed-driver/]Queens senator is calling for cracking down unlicensed drivers, instead of dooring.]

noglider 

@vol, yes, that is the collision I'm talking about, and I stand corrected about the bike lane or lack thereof. But it does show that we need to have a complete absence of bike lanes that put us into door zones, and we must always ride out of the door zone except when moving at a speed where a door collision wouldn't be a disaster.

vol

Yes, I always ride slow and cautiously in door zones, thanks to these forums for making it such a well known issue (though not to the drivers).

Same here. Protected a protected bike lane would have prevented the tragedy of Dan Hangeby.

1nterceptor

It's easy to blame cars; parked on bike paths, turns left even though they have the red, etc.
But cyclists share some of the causes for conflicts; going the wrong way, passing too close, etc.

wilfried

That's not quite true. Crashes go down when they install protected bike lanes, on the order of 15 or 20%. The difference isn't earth-shattering, but it's not nothing either. They are less than perfect though. Mixing zones are roundly criticized, and you have to learn how to negotiate them. and they just end when the DOT says "too much traffic," which is exactly where you need them most. In my early riding days, I got unceremoniously dumped right in the middle of Queens-Midtown Tunnel traffic by the painted bike lane.

noglider 

I'm not saying all bike lanes cause crashes. But we are better off without bad ones than with them.

And again, I'm willing to ride in worse conditions than many people are, and that includes some bad bike lanes.

zacster

I just feel I'm a target at the left turns on 1st and 2nd. Bikes have nowhere to go when the cars turn, they don't see you, they don't care. If they stop for one bike they'll start moving again when it clears, and yet there are 20-30 bikes coming up first ave through each light cycle. But how would a driver know? We are hidden behind the parked cars and only become visible when they start making the turn. It is a horrible design. I drive and I don't see them either. You don't stop for something you don't see.

I remember that when I started commuting up first and down second before the lanes I never felt invisible like this. I was that "crazy biker", but at least I was acknowledged. I rode up the left but would take the lane near intersections so I wouldn't be cut off. I never had anyone come close.

Ferdinand NYC

You have to wave your arms and make some noise in order to be noticed by drivers of turning cars. Blow your horn and/or shout.

I use the bike lanes on these avenues frequently, and I am satisfied with the design, despite this flaw. Another solution would be split-phase signals which give separate green lights to bikes and to turning cars. But the problem with that approach is that each green phase is so short.

So, all in all, I'll take First Avenue and Second Avenue the way they are. And I find the suggestion that these avenues were better before the bike lanes to be somewhat shocking. I'd say that the bike lanes have dramatically improved the bicycling conditions on both of these avenues.

vol

The fatal accident on the Hudson Greenway at Chambers Street and West Street 2 years ago was caused by a right hook. Here is what the city did after that:

Cyclist Death Caused by Bad Design at Hudson River Greenway Crossing: Suit

zacster

Waving your arms doesn't stop a car that is already moving. There is no place to go either because they took away any extra room by making you ride next to the curb. I thought it was a bad design from the day they opened them up and still use them but my opinion hasn't changed.

noglider 

@zacster, I cross behind the turning cars. I do this on the west side, so I don't remember if there are important differences between the west side avenues and the east side ones.

Sy Reene

Simple fix is to make only right turns allowable by cars off of the avenues, while bikes are allowed to make lefts. Yeah.. so they need to go one avenue over and then come back around, but oh well.

zacster

The problem is on First Ave there isn't always anywhere to turn right.

I also make it a point to go behind the left turning cars, except when i can't. And that is one of the problems. You only have the turn lane to do that, not the entire length of the block like you used to. If the left turns back up you can't get around them, behind them, in front of them. I see how everyone approaches it and it doesn't work.
Probably the best riding I ever had in NYC was in the days post-Sandy. There was no power downtown for days, and no traffic lights, and no cars either. It was kind of eerie, like in a post apocalypse movie. But I volunteered to go to the office in the powered zone and had the entire avenue to myself. There were people camped out in front of every outlet on the streets to charge their phones. I was waiting for the zombies and wolves to come. But I digress...

I'll have to go back to Amsterdam and Copenhagen and see how they do it there again. That's a tough trip but someone has to do it.

zacster

I had another bad day on 1st Ave, with at least 5 left hooks on a ride from Houston to 42nd St. And the bikeway was busy too, so it wasn't like I was the lone rider. I am careful, I watch the traffic as I approach, I try to take the "mix zone" turn lane. It just doesn't work, we just aren't seen and we don't have enough room to go around.