Go Back  Bike Forums > Community Connections > Regional Discussions > Northeast
Reload this Page >

Long Island Harbors Ride

Notices
Northeast Connecticut | Maine | Massachusetts | New Hampshire | New Jersey | New York |Rhode Island | Vermont |

Long Island Harbors Ride

Old 06-16-10, 02:36 PM
  #1  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Long Island Harbors Ride

Thinking about riding this one...can anyone advise to past experience with route? Tough, medium?

Thanks.

David
bailey99 is offline  
Old 06-16-10, 06:22 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Never done it, but I ride this area all the time and can advise to not underestimate how hilly the north shore of Nassau and western Suffolk can be. Lot's of ups and downs into the harbors, then 300ft. back up to the top of the hills, etc... it all adds up.

The ride info details elevation gained, so that gives you an idea. Can you currently do a 50 miler with 2500 ft of elevation gained ?.

SB
Lightingguy is offline  
Old 06-26-10, 03:00 PM
  #3  
ROAD enthusiast
 
revolator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bat Cave
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Here's the profile for the century from garminConnect.com
https://connect.garmin.com/activity/7683176

4600 ft of elevation
revolator is offline  
Old 06-26-10, 04:18 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
FrankieV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 462

Bikes: 2010 Specialized Roubaix Expert, 2007 Specialized Sequoia Elte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Depends what kind of rider you are.
It is hilly but not overly difficult.

52 mile has 2670 ft of climbing

78 mile has 4545 ft of climbing (similar to GW to Bear Mt. ride)

103 has 5610 ft of climbing
FrankieV is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 01:01 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
just came back from the ride....went on the 52 escort miles ride. the leader said the avg. speed for the ride is 11 mph....but he clearly went faster than that since he was no where to be found. the sweeper were also no where to be found. i wont recommend any1 going to any of their rides in the future. it was pretty disorganized and everyone for themselves. waste of money and time.

Last edited by vincentnyc; 06-27-10 at 01:05 PM.
vincentnyc is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 02:17 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by vincentnyc
just came back from the ride....went on the 52 escort miles ride. the leader said the avg. speed for the ride is 11 mph....but he clearly went faster than that since he was no where to be found. the sweeper were also no where to be found. i wont recommend any1 going to any of their rides in the future. it was pretty disorganized and everyone for themselves. waste of money and time.
Just curious. Why - other then the fact that the ride leader and sweep did not have sufficient ride leader skills to "guide" you thru the 50 miles, was it a waste ?. I'm thinking that "most" of the riders on all the distances, were solo, sometimes with others in an impromptu group, following the cue sheet and road markings and not using a guided tour. Is this not the case ?. Pretty much what every other type of organized tour is like round these parts ?.

I'm really asking this seriously, as I'm not aware of other rides that offer a guided tour - Mansion Ride, Bike-Boat-Bike, Gold Coast, Ancient Mariner, Golden Apple, NYC Century, Montauk Century, Ride to Montauk, Tour of the Hamptons, etc.... so i was curious as to just how the tour organizers were going to have ride leaders corral and wrangle assorted riders thru a 50 or more ride, especially when the ride leaders don't personally know the riders they are suppose to guide. How do you do that ? - "Oh Yeah, that's the guy with the yellow Livestrong jersey", he's one of mine, I think", comes to mind. Compounded by a group overtaking and being overtaken by other riders on the road, seems like a lot could go wrong and a potential for a lot of folks getting dropped.

That question aside, how were the rode markings ?. How were the rest stops ?, bathrooms ?, food quality and quantity ?.

Steve B.
Lightingguy is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 03:02 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lightingguy
Just curious. Why - other then the fact that the ride leader and sweep did not have sufficient ride leader skills to "guide" you thru the 50 miles, was it a waste ?. I'm thinking that "most" of the riders on all the distances, were solo, sometimes with others in an impromptu group, following the cue sheet and road markings and not using a guided tour. Is this not the case ?. Pretty much what every other type of organized tour is like round these parts ?.

I'm really asking this seriously, as I'm not aware of other rides that offer a guided tour - Mansion Ride, Bike-Boat-Bike, Gold Coast, Ancient Mariner, Golden Apple, NYC Century, Montauk Century, Ride to Montauk, Tour of the Hamptons, etc.... so i was curious as to just how the tour organizers were going to have ride leaders corral and wrangle assorted riders thru a 50 or more ride, especially when the ride leaders don't personally know the riders they are suppose to guide. How do you do that ? - "Oh Yeah, that's the guy with the yellow Livestrong jersey", he's one of mine, I think", comes to mind. Compounded by a group overtaking and being overtaken by other riders on the road, seems like a lot could go wrong and a potential for a lot of folks getting dropped.

That question aside, how were the rode markings ?. How were the rest stops ?, bathrooms ?, food quality and quantity ?.

Steve B.
Well the escorted ride gave u a green sticker and can be put on you shirt/pant so the leader and sweeper know that u r on the escorted ride. The marking were confusing, I saw some where mark "GC 55 miles" on the ground and didn't see anything else that said "52 miles." Did see some marking for 25/75/100 miles marking. But nothing the give u a clue that u r riding the "52 miles" ride. I assume GC stands for Gold Coast? Is that a ride from a separate group?

Part of the ride, some ppl point you in the direction for some of the turn (but I don't think they were part of the escorted group). But when u get to an intersection and aren't sure where to go and all by urself, u r sol.

At least the group leader and sweeper could get together and mention about doing a "sweeper ride" where the group leader will tell the guy closest to him to stop at the intersection and point the group in the right direction until sweeper come. But the leader never mention about doing that.

The food where ok, cookies, banana, power bars, muffins, water, gatorade, and snapple.

Oh well, u live and u learn. Never gonna do any of their rides again.

PS: I saw Bob from from 5bbc pointing rider in the right direction on a steep hill. Wonder if there were also a 5bcc ride the same day?

Last edited by vincentnyc; 06-27-10 at 03:07 PM.
vincentnyc is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 04:19 PM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for the clarification.

Seems like the guided idea needs some work, especially some add'l training for the ride leaders and sweep in how to pay attention to who's on the ride. Still, once you lose somebody, it's impossible to find them again unless you stumble upon them along the way. Been there, done that, as an MPBC ride leader.

The "GC 55" is indeed the Gold Coast 55 miler and from what I saw of the route course from Revolators Garmin track for the LI Harbors ride the route did indeed overlap, with the GC 55, 75 and 100. Not hard to see that happening as the GC leaves from Greenlawn, just NW of where LIH started/stopped and there ain't that many harbors. Sounds possibly as a somewhat poorly marked ride as well, in some instances, but in my experience from working on the Tour of the Hamptons, road marking is a true art and on a first attempt, the LIH organizers were bound to make some mistakes. I have gotten lost TWICE at the very beginning of the GC due to missing a turn and not reading the cue sheet.

The GC is July 11th and is similar, but heads more west to Roslyn and not as much to the east to Stony Brook. Skips the LIE service road, which I thought was a poor choice as there are so many other useable roads in the area that it indicates a lack of knowledge of the area (possibly typical of a club that is NYC based). If you're interested, here's a MapItPronto link to the GC 55. The GC 55, when I have done it, goes north from Greenlawn to Centerport Harbor, then west in a counter-clockwise direction. The 75 and 100 vears off for a bit in the West Hills area as well as extending further west from Roslyn into Great Neck and Kings Point.

https://www.mapitpronto.com/index.cfm...de&rideId=4489

Steve B.

Last edited by Lightingguy; 06-27-10 at 04:28 PM.
Lightingguy is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 07:07 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
As the sweep on the 52 mile ride, I can assure you all that were in the rear of the 52 from the beginning. Thus, virtually no 52 rider should have seen us. Those 52 mile riders who struggled on the hills, and for whom we waited and/or gotten SAGs for, may have felt differently about our visibility. In any case, the purpose of the sweep is to simply be the last person on the route to avoid nobody is left out there and in order that the Management knows how to position the SAG vehicles and when to close the rest areas. Knowing the leaders of the 52 group ride, I'm a bit surprised at the speed comment as, well, I did not expect that kind of speed performance . . . .
More than a few people on the 52 group ride caught up to us from behind after admitting that they were not paying attention and simply went off the route.
There is no intent that marshals be placed at every turn. For this reason, routes are marked. We did a route review on Saturday morning, and unfortunately, the Gold Coast folks must have painted their route later on Saturday. Since their event is in 2 weeks, this did not make sense to us (so early) , but that is their right.
Most marshal positions I have defined myself where I feel that there are potential safety issues that may require warning or whatever.

Last edited by DSchlichting; 06-27-10 at 07:21 PM. Reason: update
DSchlichting is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 08:26 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DSchlichting
, I'm a bit surprised at the speed comment as, well, I did not expect that kind of speed performance . . . .

More than a few people on the 52 group ride caught up to us from behind after admitting that they were not paying attention and simply went off the route.
Some telling comments here that summarize the difficulty of:

1) Leading and sweeping a ride that has a lot of riders that are unkown to the leader and sweeper. Green tags might not have been easily visible on assorted colorful bike jerseys, where as a day-glo vest would, but it's not a criticism as I'm un-aware of the circumstances.

2) Lot's of riders in general on the course that are not part of the guided ride that might well make it difficult for the leaders and sweep to judge who's who.

3) The difficulty for the ride leader to judge pace when potentially the group in contact with the leader might well be stronger and thus giving a false sense that the pace is correct. Been there !

4) The difficulty of communication between the leader and sweep on a group. We always joked about needing radios like the Pro's use. Might have been helpful here.

5) Possibly all the above is the reason other clubs generally don't attempt guided rides and simply leave it up to the individuals to find their way.

When I drove sweep for the ToH once, I had the fun of navigating the century course backwards in my car, looking for the very last rider to either 1) Alert the rest stops as to time frame for the riders at the rear, or 2) Alert the riders that they were approaching the cutoff time to make the rest stops, information that was clearly told to riders, especially those signing up for a century and leaving later then recommended.

Steve B.
Lightingguy is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 09:07 PM
  #11  
ROAD enthusiast
 
revolator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bat Cave
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I would like to thank DSchlichting and everyone else that worked the Harbors Ride today.

"That question aside, how were the rode markings ?. How were the rest stops ?, bathrooms ?, food quality and quantity ?"

Markings were actually quite good, with two exceptions discussed. 1. GC putting theirs in a confusing way, and where the 78 and 103 forked (due to closing the 103?)
Plenty of rest stops, used only 3 for the 103 route.
Food quality was fine, didn't realize the PB&J was in the plastic wrap. Good iced water and Gatorade
Bathrooms were in good shape.

This is a pretty successful ride for it to be close to 2,000 people. I'm not sure which other rides come close? It appeared the majority of the people did the 52, and didn't seem like that many did the 103. I think the 78 probably has the best value for the experienced rider. This ride is a good compliment to the GC, in terms of covering more of the Eastern part of the Gold Coast.
revolator is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 09:59 PM
  #12  
Car-Free Flatlander
 
Stacy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Below 14th Street
Posts: 1,976

Bikes: Sirrus

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by vincentnyc
The marking were confusing, I saw some where mark "GC 55 miles" on the ground and didn't see anything else that said "52 miles." Did see some marking for 25/75/100 miles marking. But nothing the give u a clue that u r riding the "52 miles" ride. I assume GC stands for Gold Coast? Is that a ride from a separate group?

Part of the ride, some ppl point you in the direction for some of the turn (but I don't think they were part of the escorted group). But when u get to an intersection and aren't sure where to go and all by urself, u r sol.
I had a similar problem when I did their Henry Hudson ride last fall. Someone else had marked almost the same route with a pink circle and arrow that ran (at least) from Bear Mountain to the West Side Greenway. A few miles and a few hills into the ride as I began to tire and confuse road markings. Andof course I didn't know this "alternate route" actually lead back to the City until I got there.

Even if you're riding in a group it's always a good idea to get a cue sheet and ride with a cyclocomputer so you can track your mileage. As hard as people try to make the markings as clear as possible they can still get covered by stopped cars, tree leaves, or even wash away if it rains.

Last edited by Stacy; 06-27-10 at 10:06 PM.
Stacy is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 10:18 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DSchlichting
... Thus, virtually no 52 rider should have seen us...
What is the purpose of an escort ride if u r not able to see the leader or sweeper? Thx. But no thx. I'm never gonna do any of ur ride again.
vincentnyc is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 11:07 AM
  #14  
Member
 
Junker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Long Beach, NY
Posts: 45

Bikes: 2011 Specialized Roubiax SL3 Expert w/full 6700 Ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I thought the ride was fairly well marked, one of the better marked rides I've done. I did the 103, didn't miss a turn.

I thought the thick pink arrows were very distinguishable from the Gold Coast markings, which were thin pink hand drawn arrows (a slightly different shade of pink also) that had the GC initials. I saw a lot of people make turns at the GC markings, but I think that comes down to common sense. If you do 10 miles following thick pink arrows (obviously done with a stencil), why would you then turn when seeing a skinny pink hand drawn arrow that says GC?

The rest stops were good (except that I hate Gatorade). I could have skipped one or two, but the person I was with wanted to stop at all of them. The last seven miles on the service road were brutal, as the sun came out just as we made that right turn to get on it. I went from feeling fine to fearing I was going to overheat or bonk in just a few minutes.

Here are my stats from my Garmin
https://connect.garmin.com/activity/38419296

I'm sure at the GC next month, people will start following the LIH markers as well, and make the same complaints.
Junker is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 02:09 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
FrankieV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 462

Bikes: 2010 Specialized Roubaix Expert, 2007 Specialized Sequoia Elte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I agree...well marked and the usual bike NY rest stops.
Although I like fresh PB&J, not that stuff with 500 ingredients on the pkg.

We did the 78 and it was pretty challenging.
I must admit, I walked the hill outside of Port Jeff.
The first time I've walked a hill since my first year of riding.
I just bonked halfway up the hill......nothing left.

You are right....The blacktop on the final stretch had to be radiating over 100 degrees.
Ice packs would have been a welcome sight at the finish.
FrankieV is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 03:02 PM
  #16  
Member
 
Junker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Long Beach, NY
Posts: 45

Bikes: 2011 Specialized Roubiax SL3 Expert w/full 6700 Ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
[QUOTE=FrankieV;11030705
I must admit, I walked the hill outside of Port Jeff.
The first time I've walked a hill since my first year of riding.
[/QUOTE]

That was a nice steady 14% incline. I did this ride two years ago, and they had someone at the top taking pictures. I thought that was just plain cruel :-D
Junker is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 03:24 PM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NYC - where bicycles go to die
Posts: 1,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Are you guys talking about heading East up E. Broadway? That one is pretty bad. I routinely pass cars while going down it (when they pull out in front of me thinking "a bicycle. How fast could it be moving?")
lukasz is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 03:52 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Junker
I thought the thick pink arrows were very distinguishable from the Gold Coast markings, which were thin pink hand drawn arrows (a slightly different shade of pink also) that had the GC initials. I saw a lot of people make turns at the GC markings, but I think that comes down to common sense. If you do 10 miles following thick pink arrows (obviously done with a stencil), why would you then turn when seeing a skinny pink hand drawn arrow that says GC?
I'm getting the idea from this thread that there are still some riders not using a GPS for navigation.

I wonder in 10 years . . . it will be nearly impossible to buy a mobile phone without a GPS included, and it will be simpler for event organizers just to hand out free GPS units to the handful of riders without them, than to spend all those hours doing a careful job of painting arrows.

My compliments to all the organizers + volunteers working so hard to make it possible for the other riders.

I've never ridden anything in that area, but I've decided that if two different groups are putting that much work into setting up, I'm going to get some of the GPS files and ride and see it.

Ken
Ken Roberts is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 04:09 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
"I wonder in 10 years . . . it will be nearly impossible to buy a mobile phone without a GPS included, and it will be simpler for event organizers just to hand out free GPS unit"

See this thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-to-Garmin-705

The gist is that *current* smart phones don't have sufficient screen brightness nor battery life to maintain that brightness over a 6 hr. ride. The GPS technology is pretty far along and the ride organizers could certainly give a link to a Google Map, MapMyRide or similar website for a downloadable map for a GPS unit or smart phone. The stand alone GPS devices - Garmin, Magellan and TomTom want to keep the maps that their devices use as proprietary (which are often NavTech or the other - based) and currently limit the device user to the manufacturers website based mapping programs, so there's no compatibility with the assorted Google sites. I know that my need for my Garmin Nuvi car GPS was just somewhat eliminated as I started using the Google Android Navigator mapping and directions program on my HTC Incredible. With a dash mount and car charger, ot works about as well as the Garmin.

So some form of meeting of the minds is probably needed, though it's doubtful, given that I'm expecting the market share for stand alone GPS to slowly lose ground to software based on smart phones.

SB
Lightingguy is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 04:54 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
FrankieV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 462

Bikes: 2010 Specialized Roubaix Expert, 2007 Specialized Sequoia Elte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Buying the GPS file as part of your registration would be great too.

I actually have a Garmin 705 on my bike.
Bright enough and audio is good enough to let you know when you go off track.
During the Bike-Boat-Bike this year where all the markings were washed away and the cue sheets sucked,
I punched in the coordinates of the start and it got us back with ease.
It was so much easier than asking the other lost riders which way is the right way
FrankieV is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 06:57 PM
  #21  
Member
 
Junker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Long Beach, NY
Posts: 45

Bikes: 2011 Specialized Roubiax SL3 Expert w/full 6700 Ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Actually, any route made with mapmyride.com, ridewithgps.com, bikeroutetoaster.com, can be downloaded into the edge 705 and it will give you turn by turn directions (though the device itself is still a bit buggy). The edge uses standard .gpx track files.

Last edited by Junker; 06-29-10 at 07:43 AM.
Junker is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 07:53 PM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
FrankieV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 462

Bikes: 2010 Specialized Roubaix Expert, 2007 Specialized Sequoia Elte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Junker
Actually, any route made with mapmyride.com, ridewithgps.com, bikeroutetoaster.com, can be downloaded into the edge 705 and it will give you turn by turn directions (though the device itself is still a bit buddy). The edge uses standard .gpx track files.
That's true. I'm just not sure if event rides follow the same exact route every year.
FrankieV is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
adefeatedman
Northeast
3
05-04-12 08:04 PM
magohn
Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg)
36
03-01-11 12:00 AM
crockett
Southern California
4
04-05-10 06:51 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.