echappist

Has anyone been on this stretch of road in either direction? It looks like limited access highway, but is this one of the times when bikes can go on it? Also, it doesn't look as if there's any shoulder on the road. So i'd like to hear about your story if you have ridden on this stretch of road.

Thanks,

Jim

dendawg

I'm not sure how legal it is but I have done it. We road from Lake Sebago to Bear Mtn on Seven Lakes Drive. Going west to east, when you get to the traffic circle you basically get on the Palisades Parkway for about 1/4 mile. The problem is the ramp enters on the left and you have to cross 2 lanes of fast moving traffic (speed limit on the parkway is 55) to get off at the exit where Seven Lakes Drive continues. Going east to west its not a problem at all as the ramp takes you right into the traffic circle and back on Seven Lakes Drive.

Bezalel

I think there's a sign at the end of 7 Lakes Road prohibiting Bicycles in the circle.

ckelly49

Definitely illegal, but I and others have done it plenty of times since it's the only way to get from one road to the other. You really just have to be quick about it, like Dendawg said, going from Rd. to Dr. bc you have to cross the highway. When you are coming down the ramp, pick your moment then put your head down and sprint.

A cop drove past us doing it once early on a Saturday morning, but didn't stop. I think Pcad may know someone who was stopped doing it.

echappist

Everyone, thanks for the answers. Dammit, they need to construct a by-way for this thing.

noteon 

On the NYC 200K, our cue sheet specified that you are required by law to walk your bike on this stretch.

I don't think anyone did, but that's what the cue sheet said.

Ken Roberts

I've never heard of this fine point about 7 Lks "Drive" versus "Road" (I always thought it was all just Seven Lakes Drive on the ground as opposed to some mapmakers fantasy), but I'm guessing that this is about this area on the map.

I've gone thru that circle west to east and across the Palisades Parkway toward Perkins Memorial Drive with my bike lots of times for lots of years. I don't remember ever seeing any sign saying No Bikes.

So Route 6 is an interstate highway now? (I don't know the answer.)

I'm not sure how much space there is alongside the short route 6 section (I sorta remember some width of asphalt outside the white line on the right side) -- but there's lots of grass on the east side of the north-bound lanes of the Palisades Parkway. Sometimes I have walked my bike across the Parkway there, then walked or pedaled my bike on the grass alongside a short ways north until I reached the continuation of Seven Lakes Dr toward the east. I think the available grass extends to the end of the exit ramp, if you feel that law or safety requires that you stay off the asphalt that far.
There's other possible strategies.

So you're a attorney licensed in the state of New York, rendering a professional opinion here for the benefit of all us?

Not knowing the correct legal interpretation myself, I will suggest that one or two bicyclists who know safe strategies for handling a two-lane traffic circle / roundabout and other high-traffic situations, going thru west to east riding in control, are likely to make it through (based on my own history). A larger group or club ride or event -- that might attract police attention (so perhaps a group would be smart to break up into smaller sub-teams for that section).

Ken

ckelly49

So not knowing the actual laws, you are suggesting that people just go ahead and do whatever they please provided that they do it in what you would consider a 'safe' manner?

https://www.njpalisades.org/cycling.htm

Ken Roberts

No.

It occurs to me that the Appalachian Trail crosses the Palisades Interstate Parkway roughly 2 miles south of that area. Not just an exit or entrance ramp, but across both the south-bound and north-bound lanes. I imagine that people hiking that famous trail just wait for a break in the traffic, and walk (or run) across the road.
I think hikers have been doing this for like fifty years. I suspect the police have known for fifty years that they've been doing it.

Ken

Bezalel

The sign actually says "Passenger Cars Only" and there is more than one of them. They are posted at 7 lakes Rd and on Rt 6 approaching Long Mountain Circle and on 7 Lakes Dr approaching the Palisades Pkwy

Not all of it, just the 2 1/2 miles between Long Mountain Circle and Bear Mountain Bridge Circle. I am certain that bicycles are allowed on route 6 east of Bear Mountain Bridge Circle.

Actually, there is a hiker crossing sign where the Appalachian Trail crosses the Palisades Parkway.

ckelly49

Like Bezazel says, 2.5 miles of Rt. 6 is a part of the Palisades INTERSTATE Parkway. The .5 mile section in question is a part of this stretch. Just because some police turn a blind eye to it does not mean that they all will and that would certainly end if someone were to get hit while riding on it. I'm sticking with my original answer of illegal.

Ken Roberts

Thanks for that helpful information.
And thanks a real lot for posting the rule about expressways + interstates. Whatever the exact interpretation of that for this location, it's surely important to be aware that there's a substantial legal concern here.

What's your source for that? It's not on this list on interstate highways.
The fact that there's a traffic circle or roundabout there would seem to argue that the subsection of route 6 close to the roundabout is not an expressway.

Ken

Jay H

I believe the AT crosses the Palisades south of that circle and there is no bridge or tunnel or anything but there is a median on the Palisades there and there is an AT journal in the median so the hiker only has to cross two lanes of traffic at a time.

Jay

Ken Roberts

Yes, that's an important point.
My thinking is that even if some court a months later ruled that taking a bike thru there was fully legal (perhaps with some walking) -- that doesn't help me if a police officer stops me from doing it on the day I'm there riding. In which case I'd have to turn around and pedal back up Seven Lakes Drive and find some other roads to use to finish my riding that day -- which might add a lot of distance + time + hill-climbing work. (makes sense to at least bring a map with possible alternate roads, or perhaps even have a specific contingency route)

That there is a significant chance that going thru there would ultimately be ruled illegal and/or that police might stop it there on the road ought to be a planning issue for someone organizing an event or leading a club ride.

I have a feeling it might also change things if some bicyclists significantly disrupted traffic there frequently. I think it's kind of difficult for a significant group of riders to avoid disrupting traffic -- partly because lots of groups (and individuals) don't know appropriate strategies, also because for lots of car drivers, seeing a group of bicyclists is itself a disruption.

My overall assessment: There's substantial safety concerns here, there's significant traffic-disruption concerns here, there's significant legal concerns here -- so most bicyclists should not try it -- choose some different route instead.

Ken

ckelly49

I'm sure if you call this guy and explain the situation, he'll be more than happy to help you win your internet debate....or not.

https://www.usacops.com/nj/p07620pip/index.html

Ken Roberts

And riding west to east across that roundabout and rt 6 and Pal Pkwy does require that a bicyclist similarly get across two lanes of traffic (not four), specifically the two north-bound lanes, because a bridge goes above the south-bound lanes.For my thinking, that's the toughest legal obstacle to getting through there, because whatever the bicycling legal status of route 6 and the roundabout, and however you might "finesse" getting around the short entrance + long exit ramps, you still do have to get across on the pavement of those two lanes of the Palisades Parkway.

I'm not any sort of lawyer, so I'll just ask:
If the wording of that sign were taken fully literally, would it not exclude motorcycles? what about pick-up trucks?

Ken

Not the Slowest

Agreed, I was on the 200K. HOWEVER, the other rider that latched onto me wanted to walk it, sooooo we did.
I must say that it really is safer to ride through it as I have done many other times.

pardonme

I have done it once relatively early in the morning as I was on an overnight tour ride, and it seemed that getting through the circle was a lot more challenging than actually getting across rt 6. Of course that was during morning rush hour when everyone was going southeast towards the city and not on 6 where I was. It seems like if you are willing to just wait and pick the right time to make your run for it when there is an opening in traffic you should be fine.

Bezalel

It's not an interstate highway, it's a state expressway (Rt 987C). Everyone else here seems to accept that bicycles are prohibited on the Parkway and its entrance ramps.

Ken Roberts

Thanks for digging out the route number -- I never knew about those "reference" numbers.
Maybe it's more complicated than that:

* Just because a road has a route reference number doesn't make it an "expressway" in legal terms. At least I can't find anything public on the web that says rt 987C is an expressway.

* at least around the metro New York City area, "parkways" and "expressways" are mutually exclusive. Since the Palisides is indisputably a "parkway", that would seem to indicate that it could not be an expressway.

* since the original question was about route 6, it's not clear to me that the section of rt 6 east-bound from the circle / roundabout gets the designation of 987C - (though surely after rt 6 East actually merges into the Palisades Parkway, then it's part of 987C).

* My complete amateur perspective is that most of that section of rt 6 east from the circle is not an entrance ramp, only the last part where it narrows and curves into the Palisades is an "entrance ramp". I see most of it as simply Route 6 East-bound -- which is neither an "expressway" (because it's right next to a traffic circle / roundabout) or an "interstate" (because it's just not), so I would argue that NY State statute section 1229-a does not apply to that part.

* Section 1229-a is not completely obvious how to apply here because it refers to "interstate highways" and "expressway highways" -- but I so far haven't found a place in the NY statutes where the terms "interstate highway" or "expressway" are defined.* "Passenger Cars Only" sign -- some web pages indicate that motorcycles and light pick-up trucks (with no commercial advertising) are in fact permitted on the Palisades Parkway -- so apparently that sign is not taken fully literally - (and at least one page indicates that the interpretation of what's permitted or not on some Parkways is kinda complicated).

Lawyers could argue about those points, but I hope it never comes to that. (Anyway there might be some other case law or administrative rule that makes it illegal or legal even if that statute does not apply. Lawyers could probably dig it out, but I'm not going to try.)

For me the key point is that if a police officer thinks going thru there with a bicycle is illegal, and decides that he ought to enforce it on me then + there, then I'm not going to try to win some legal argument there. I'm going to have to turn around and find another way to finish my ride, which is not what I want.

Why I hope that it's somehow legal -- or could somehow be made to be legal:
Because there's some beautiful + fun riding on thru the Seven Lakes on one side, and some beautiful + fun riding around Bear Mountain and along the Hudson River on the other side, and there's no other good way to connect the two.

Ken

Ken Roberts

Yes that's how it seems to me most times: Getting thru the traffic circle / roundabout is the toughest part. Anybody who wants to go thru there should be prepared with a strategy for how to handle a two-lane roundabout with no shoulders and possibly lots of traffic.

As Jim suspected in his orginal question, once thru the roundabout, there's no marked shoulder on route 6 east-bound -- the width of the bridge is pretty much filled by the two traffic lanes. Which seems sort of scary, but somehow whenever I've been there (in the middle of a weekend day) there hasn't been much traffic, so I just rode my bike in the right lane, and the cars went past in the left lane.

Then as it narrows into becoming an entrance ramp, I moved to the right, and (I guess since there's no contraint on width from the bridge) - I found there was still space for cars to get by easily. Which gets to . . .

crossing the two north-bound lanes of Palisades Parkway. The cars are moving very fast, but I get a good view of them coming, and times I've been there (never a weekday rush hour), it's hard to remember waiting more than a few seconds before there was a big enough gap to I could get across to the wide grass on the other side.

Ken

mcgreivey

Rt. 6 is certainly neither an interstate nor an expressway, so it is not automatically covered by the above-quoted law. So it would need to have a "no bikes" sign for bikes to be prohibited.

The Palisades Interstate Parkway isn't an interstate, despite it's name; it's a parkway, which in NY state is not the same thing as an interstate, so the above law doesn't apply, but it seems it's covered by another law:

https://www.hudsonvalleytraveler.com/...aysExcerpts.pl (search down the text for "§ 182.31 Restricted vehicles"). The Palisades Parkway would seem to fall under this law. No bikes.

Rt 6 west of the circle (Long Mountain Circle) is also signed as the "Long Mountain Parkway", but it's two lanes, so I don't suppose Parkway rules actually apply to it.

(West of the circle, Rt 6 is the Palisades Parkway.)

As for what a cop would do (or not do)--I suppose they know that the only way to get between Rt. 6, Seven Lakes Drive, and Seven Lakes Pkwy without riding 30 miles out of your way is to ride or walk a little way on or beside the Palisades Pkwy. So some of them might be inclined to be forgiving, unless there's a lot of traffic, or you're doing something dangerous.

Ken Roberts

Illegal to walk a bike or ride it across the Palisades Parkway there, is my latest not-any-kind-of-lawyer thinking.

Yes it says that bicycles are not permitted within the Parkway system, unless authorized under an agreement with the deparment. (NY State Dept of Transportation, I assume).

This is not in the NY statutes, but in the
New York Codes, Rules, and Regulations, Title 17, Chapter 4, subchapter E: Special Parkways, section 182.31Also important is section 182.28:
Pedestrians are prohibited ... except when crossing at an authorized crossing.

Seems to me that the Appalachian Trail crossing a couple of miles south is "authorized" for walking across, but as far as I know the crossing near the traffic circle is not (currently).

Ken

njkayaker

I've ridden on it (years ago). I've ridden it all the way to the Bear Mountain Bridge.

The problem is that it's the basically Palisades Interstate Parkway east of the circle to 7 Lakes Drive/Road.

While it isn't legal (in my opinion and as far as I can tell and how I suspect any cop that sees you is going to interpret it), it's reasonably safe because there is (generally) little traffic and the sight-lines are good. (Note that I'm not recommending it!) Keep in mind, also, that Route 6 is a road used by commuters.

East bound before the circle.

https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...&cbp=12,0,,0,5

The circle.

https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...,46.48,,0,8.52

East bound after the circle. This is part of the PIP (it's constructed in the same way as the PIP and likely maintained as part of the PIP). There are no shoulders and there is a 45' angled curb too.

https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...1,49.4,,0,8.52

=================================

I don't think this odd phrase is ever, anywhere, interpreted literally. That is, it's meant to exclude commercial traffic and heavy vehicles, not motorcycles, pickups, vans, or SUVs..

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/download...ways_oct09.pdf

Note that this sign is saying nothing about bicycles.

cyclebycle13

I'm pretty sure there was an issue in this area about 7 years ago- the police (state and park) started ticketing cyclists. I had already moved out of the area, so it wasn't an issue I followed much afterwards and I never heard how it turned out-- you might just want to call the state police and ask- it could depend who you speak to-- when I did live in the area, I know I was often on that stretch, but always from bear mtn and around into harriman or over long mtn parkway. During that time I only went by police while on long mtn parkway (over a dozen times) and not one of them ever stopped me-- the stretch between the circle and bear mtn park I would imagine is a whole different ballgame.