rhm

Can anyone explain what's up with the bike lanes in Manhattan? Some of them have changed recently and no one seems to understand it.

For example, 8th Avenue from Penn Station up to somewhere around 57th Street.

The pattern was, until recently, left to right (west to east):
sidewalk, parked cars, bike lane, four lanes of traffic, parked cars, and finally the other sidewalk.

But now this has become:
sidewalk, a green painted lane, door zone, parked cars, four lanes of traffic, parked cars, and the other sidewalk.

The green painted lane is not marked as a bike lane. Pedestrians assume it is an extension of the sidewalk, bikes assume it is a bike lane, and it is very, very, very, dangerous.

Does anyone know?

I asked three policemen today, and they did not know. I called 311, and they did not know.

lostarchitect 

They're green. Yeah, I'm having issues with pedestrians in them as well. We all know that pedestrians in NYC refuse to wait on the sidewalks for lights to change, and usually wait a step out into the street. So, of course, now they wait in the bike lane. It looks to me like whoever planned these had little experience with the realities of NYC traffic.

edit: an additional issue beyond the pedestrian one is that these lanes place cars between the cyclist and the motorized traffic. I assume this is to protect the cyclist, and it seems to make sense until you reach an intersection. The parked cars make bikes harder to see for the rest of the traffic, which increases the chances they will turn into you at an intersection. Very poor design.

rhm

Thanks, I figured it was green. I edited my post.

lostarchitect 

I complained about it on the DOT's website. Of course I was respectful about it, but I agree that it is very dangerous and poorly designed.

vol

That area is chaotic and not a pleasant place to ride.

Some waiting for a cab have their arm far stretched out into the street and refuse to withdraw their arms to let a bike pass through!

Sportsman9

Just a contrary view -- I like the protected structures. Sure it's not perfect, but it's better than having speeding cars right next to you. First Avenue has a mix of both types -- even as crazy as it can be, going through the Village, the protected lane there makes me feel much better than the wide open upper 50s.

nigelsane

This is a perfect opportunity to give the cab hailer a high five. Try it, it's fun! They'll also (hopefully) learn not to stand in the bike lane.

Seriously though, the parking protected lanes are a step in the right direction. Yes, they're often treated as sidewalk extension by pedestrians, but just give it some time. I'm seeing more and more people watching out for bikes before they step into the bike lane.

The protected lanes are also more inviting for new cyclists, who won't be going all that fast anyway. The more bikes there are on the street, the safer it becomes for everyone. If you want to fly down an avenue at 30mph, you can still do it outside the bike lane (I often do this on 2nd Ave).

lostarchitect 

I don't mind being separated from the traffic physically, but I want them to be able to see me.

M.Alex

I think the separation is probably to make people more comfortable with the idea of riding on the streets when the new rent a bike things are put out. I'm usually more worried about parked cars opening doors on me rather than cycling next to cars.

Though the big ass trucks still scare me ****less.

rhm

I realize the city is trying to get people riding bikes; people who are not now riding bikes, that is. And I agree it is a good idea to get those people on bikes; it will be good for everyone, including those of us who are already on bikes. And for those people, this type of bike lane may actually be a good idea, though I am inclined to doubt that.

For riders like me, however, this kind of bike path is very dangerous. The odds of being hooked by a car are doubtless a bit higher, but I can probably deal with that. The real danger for me is hitting a pedestrian. There are far too many of them to be able to watch them all carefully, and they often move unpredictably. All this is fine if they are somewhat separated from the bike lane; but now they are right next to one another. It scares me.

I do not mean to rant; I'm not trying to get this thread moved to A&S.

Update: there are now bicycles painted on the green path at several spots. So they are definitely bike paths.

nigelsane

I don't think you're ranting at all. It's a valid concern. I'm afraid of hitting pedestrians as well. I can ring my bell or even yell all I want and it won't always get an iphone zombie to see me coming.

But I'm grateful that the city is finally starting to recognize our existence by building all this bike infrastructure, and I feel that it's time for us to give a little as well, so I always stop at red lights now, and I almost always give pedestrians the right of way, and yes, I ride slower in the protected bike lanes to give myself more time to stop if an iphone zombie stumbles into the lane.

Enjoy this infrastructure while you can--if the next mayor throws out Sadik-Khan, we may all have to go back to mixing it up with traffic whether we like it or not.

edit: Here's a picture of the protected lane I ride every day. It stinks (literally and figuratively) and I end up in traffic with trucks half the time. But I'm still kinda glad it's there.

ratdog

^^That looks like Grand Street. What an awful place for a bike lane. It's just more space for the local residents to walk because the sidewalks are impassable.

zowie

I had assumed they were for peds because on bway in the 50s there are separate ped and bike lanes and the ped lane is the green one.

Bacciagalupe

I was on 7th Ave and 30th earlier today. Seems pretty typical isolated NYC bike lane to me.

Seems to me that no matter what, you will always have pedestrians, wrong-way cyclists, trucks or some other obstruction in the road no matter what. E.g. on-street lanes are often blocked by double-parking cars, trucks and cabs.

Also, keep in mind that the isolated lanes have another function, namely they take up more of the road, and thus have a traffic-calming effect.

woodrupjoe

I've been taking the 8th Ave. lane from 21st to Columbus Circle a lot lately. Otherwise I take the 6th Ave. non-protected lane. You've got completely oblivious pedestrians in one, and aggressive drivers in the other. It's a toss-up which is worse. Actually, I'm starting to feel like drivers are becoming more attentive and not as aggressive (compared to the 80s which were the wild-west bad old days), while pedestrians are becoming more idiotic and oblivious (maybe it's the cellphone effect). Sometimes I feel safest just getting out in the middle lane and haulin'. If you're keeping up the drivers seem cool with it.

rhm

Joe, what time of day are you on that stretch of 8th Ave? I'm on it ca 7:10 - 7:20 AM. That's not a particularly terrible time for that ride; the pedestrians are for the most part New Yorkers on their way to work. Today I came in three hours late, and (oh, man!) it was awful.

In the last few weeks I have drastically reduced the speed at which I ride 8th Ave, which is really hard for me to do. I get impatient. But above 15 mph or so it's just too dangerous now.

I also got an Airzound horn, which I use as conservatively as possible (I only blast it at Republicans!). I got it mostly because the law requires you to have some kind of noisemaker, and the new lanes are so dangerous I figured I needed something loud. I really don't like blasting it at pedestrians if it's not necessary, and anyway, they ignore it. I prefer to sound the horn from a goodish distance so it doesn't freak anyone out, but they don't really hear it until I'm virtually on top of them. So the Airzound does not really work.

Oh, and today I got run off the bike lane by a cop car driving down it the wrong way. I wish I could say this surprised me, but the truth is there's very little the NYPD could do to surprise me at this point.

tsw910

I actually do get the "cars can't see you" .. cuz on the west side highway (south bound) and where it intersect with Chamber Street. The bike lane is on the sidewalk and when cars making a right turn there .. usually don't stop / expect its still green for bikers. So I see TONS of arguments happening at that corner. The best was when a Ferrari owner got into it with a biker LOL

woodrupjoe

Hey RHM, I work all over the city so I'm always on my bike. Our shop is on 21st. between 6th and 7th and I often stop in there at 8- 8:30am before going on to our site locations (carpentry jobs). So I'm often running up 6th or 8th Ave on my way to the upper east and west side (70s, 80s, of course), at around 9 am. Just one solid zoo of absolutely oblivious pedestrians. I was riding a lot back in the early/mid 80s (during the messenger wars), I'm trying to figure out what the difference is between then and now. Everyone hated bicyclist back then (of course), but drivers now seem to be a little bit more aware and not as angrily aggressive (anyone else feel that way?), while pedestrians seem to be completely lost and in their own little world, and often perturbed to have to shake themselves out of their torpor. I chalk it up to a combination of cellphone sedation and the expectation that anything painted green is meant to be calming and welcoming... "Yes, I could walk on that empty sidewalk, but this stretch of asphalt is painted green so I'm going to help save the planet by walking on it..." it's as good an explanation as any, I guess.
Passed a woman on 3rd ave. yesterday morning, leisurely walking against the "don't walk" while traffic bore down- I rode by in front of her, maybe 15 feet away. As I passed she croaked at me with a what I assumed was a smokers wheeze, "DROP DEAD". Still trying to figure that one out, but it had me laughing all the way to work. But I did kick myself for not turning around to ask her what that was all about, might have been an education.

cheers, Joe

ganapati

I ride that stretch daily as well... in the street. Its totally unsafe in the bike lanes due to cellphones + peds. Also there is a school in the area. I'd rather get a ticket than even graze the possibility of hitting a kid.

zacster

And yet the city continues to build bike lanes like that. I myself find them more dangerous than riding the street as well. I went up 1st Ave this morning and had to slam on the brakes at least 5 times. Without the separated lane I could just go around all that and never gave it much thought. I would use 3rd Avenue, but the lights aren't sync'ed and you can't go more than 3 or 4 blocks.

rhm

Now 9th Ave is getting this treatment as well. Parking is clearly painted down the 2nd lane, and there's this whole 1st (left) lane free, so people park in that as well. Two lanes of parked cars, how wonderful, man.

And somewhere near 38th st or so is a Chinese restaurant that has an electric delivery bike parked in the bike lane all the time. Perpendicular to it, of course. I asked the delivery man who rides the bike to park it somewhere else, but he just made squawking sounds at me, presumably to indicate that he doesn't understand (or care to understand) English. Oy.

Trueblood

ok, how about Broadway headed south from Columbus Circle. The bike path is green, BUT, after 57th street, it splits with the painted bike lane on black asphalt, and a pedestrian zone next to it in green. So my interpretation is, green in the 2 blocks between 59th and 57th on B'way is shared by bikes and pedestrians, changing south of 57 into distinct zones. One day while walking along with a friend in the green zone at 58th, a woman on a bike actually swerved towards us shouting epithets about getting out of the bike lane. So of course when she arrived at 57th, she discovered that the green zone is marked for pedestrians. It is confusing and not well planned. I won't bike down Broadway, too much traffic and too many obstacles. Were I to go that route, however, I think I would take it easy.

rhm

Yes, that's been my approach to that as well. A few days ago I had my front tire go flat while I was riding, and by the time got over to the curb the bead seems to have got damaged; so after I fixed the flat the tire wouldn't seat properly and I had to take it real easy on my ride back to the station. So I took Broadway. And that was really pretty pleasant; leave extra time, smile at the pedestrians, slow down whenever someone gets in my way... not my usual style but okay for a change. For your average 10 to 12 mph rider this kind of bike lane is probably okay.

zacster

And therein lies the problem, these bike lanes are designed for 10 to 12 mph riding, or 15 max. Not just the Broadway one, but all of the car separated lanes. You just can't go any faster and still feel safe because of all the obstacles, and you have limited space to go around them. While I'm no speed demon, I would ride a lot faster than that on an unencumbered lane, even on my commuter/mtb. I've tried on my roadie too and I'm not comfortable when I'm clicked in.

That said, when I was in Copenhagen a few years ago there were many more riders than cars, and nobody is going very fast. In fact, it is frowned upon to do more than a plodding speed. Of course, Copenhagen is much smaller than NYC and probably nobody is riding more than a few miles.

woodrupjoe

As I mentioned above, I ride up 6th or 8th ave in the bike lanes almost every morning on my way to the upper east or west side. On my way back downtown at the end of the day I take the west side Central Park loop downtown and from there take 7th Ave the rest of the way downtown (I live on the Lower East Side). I'm slowly coming to the realization that the 7th Ave ride (sans bike lanes) is the least nerve-wracking, most pleasant, moronic-pedestrian-free ride of my day. I like to ride fast and find it comfortable to get out in the stream of traffic and go- it never gets all that fast and the drivers these days are not trying to kill you as a side-sport. The ride uptown (especially on 8th ave) is a white-knuckle joust hoping not to take out a pedestrian. The peds don't obliviously walk out into traffic on 7th Ave, I wonder why (cause they know they'll get KILLED!) I'm ready to pronounce the protected bike lanes and absolute, utter failure- they're not safe for bicyclists and they're not safe for pedestrians. They do keep the cyclists out of the car lanes (under penalty of law) so I guess they're a win for motorists. The 6ave-style bike-lanes (not sure what they're called) are better, at least they give you a door-zone to claim as your own. I hate to find myself siding with the motorists, but without some sort of policing of the bike-lanes I'd just as soon do without. (The above applies only to the major ave. lanes- I do like the door-zone lanes on the side streets.)
But then again, maybe the lanes have been a boon to all the new riders that seem to be taking to the roads, and they wouldn't feel comfortable without them. I don't know what the answer is, the protected lanes are awful though...