Reducing stop sign violation bail in San Francisco?
After commuting for 2 years with no problem, I got two stop sign violation tickets in the last two weeks. Normally I'd pay the tickets, but in this case it's just too painful to pay two of them in two weeks.
The cops were quite nice and both of them highlighted the possibility of reduced fines if I schedule a trial date. Does anyone have any experience with reduced fines for cyclists in SF? I find conflicting stories, so something from first hand would be great. On the side note, in the first case they caught me in a classic police trap that was set up for cyclists during commute hours. They even said that they were sent out to give tickets to cyclist with zero tolerance. While I agree that everyone should respect traffic laws, I find it sad that SFPD targets cyclist commuters. In a city where there is no parking, public transportation sucks and traffic jams are all over the place they shouldn't specifically target cyclists. Also I'd love to see reduced fines for cyclists in the case of some minor violations (along with numerous infrastructure changes). |
Some of the penalties I've heard of for bicycle stop sign violations don't seem to fit the crime. Esp. considering that many, many stop signs are placed for purpose of speed control than any other valid reason (I think at least 75% of the four way stops in my area could be reduced to two way stops except for the fact that would probably at this point confuse people so much that there'd be in increase in accidents).
Anyway if it was up to me and I was a traffic cop, I would issue tickets depending on factors like whether the cyclist slowed enough to have stopped if he had to and if he generally seemed to be situationally aware. Much as I think many stop signs shouldn't exist, blowing through one at speed is provocative and I'd ticket for it. Giving police no discretion and ticketing someone an auto type fine for riding 5 mph though a sign will simply make some people give up riding and take to their cars. I don't see how that's a better solution for anyone. I'd advocate small penalties--maybe $40-50 (w/o added court fees) as a way to adjust people's behavior w/o making them feel like martyrs for infractions. Sorry I have no advice on getting a fine reduced. Getting two in two weeks probably isn't going to help you here... |
In Palo Alto, you can have the fee reduced to $75 if you show up in court for pre-trial. For a motor vehicle offense, this is where you get to decide to get a trial date, go to traffic school or just pay the fine. For a bike violation, you can either have it reduced to $75 or go to trial. At least that's how it was couple years ago.
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Originally Posted by SClaraPokeman
(Post 17816631)
Some of the penalties I've heard of for bicycle stop sign violations don't seem to fit the crime. Esp. considering that many, many stop signs are placed for purpose of speed control than any other valid reason (I think at least 75% of the four way stops in my area could be reduced to two way stops except for the fact that would probably at this point confuse people so much that there'd be in increase in accidents).
Anyway if it was up to me and I was a traffic cop, I would issue tickets depending on factors like whether the cyclist slowed enough to have stopped if he had to and if he generally seemed to be situationally aware. Much as I think many stop signs shouldn't exist, blowing through one at speed is provocative and I'd ticket for it. Giving police no discretion and ticketing someone an auto type fine for riding 5 mph though a sign will simply make some people give up riding and take to their cars. I don't see how that's a better solution for anyone. I'd advocate small penalties--maybe $40-50 (w/o added court fees) as a way to adjust people's behavior w/o making them feel like martyrs for infractions. Sorry I have no advice on getting a fine reduced. Getting two in two weeks probably isn't going to help you here...
Originally Posted by MetinUz
(Post 17816995)
In Palo Alto, you can have the fee reduced to $75 if you show up in court for pre-trial. For a motor vehicle offense, this is where you get to decide to get a trial date, go to traffic school or just pay the fine. For a bike violation, you can either have it reduced to $75 or go to trial. At least that's how it was couple years ago.
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Originally Posted by nemeseri
(Post 17817037)
This would be the best thing ever. So basically I have to go to the court listed on the ticket until the deadline they gave me and ask them to reduce the bail with pleading guilty?
BTW, other non-auto violations were treated the same. There was a triathlete cited for swimming where it was posted "no swimming". |
Not bicycle related but twice I've had traffic tickets (FRAMED- BOGUS!!!) and I contested by written declaration, writing an exculpatory description of the events and describing myself as a safe and courteous driver... both times the fee was cut in half with no moving violation on my record. Then the response was that if I didn't agree with the verdict I could still have a court date.
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The ticket may be dismissed if the issuing officer doesn't show. If he does show, that would be the time to dispute or reason with the court. Worth a try, the fine won't go any higher unless you refuse to pay it.
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Originally Posted by MetinUz
(Post 17817129)
Sort of. It worked like that couple years ago when I was ticketed by a Santa Clara Sheriff deputy for rolling a stop sign. I had to go to court twice, once to get a date, and second to plead no contest and get the fee reduced. YMMV.
BTW, other non-auto violations were treated the same. There was a triathlete cited for swimming where it was posted "no swimming". |
Not for your specific situation, but I've twice done trial by written declaration. On one, the judge didn't buy it, I requested trial de novo, and the cop didn't show up on the court date. On the other the judge reduced it. Either way it took months and months, and you have to pay the ticket up front as bail and get the money back later if you win.
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Short update: I went to the court clerk and they said that the fine is $197 because I was biking. The clerk highlighted that if I had been in a car it would have been $239. I find it really weird because as far as I know, by the book it should be the same for every vehicle. Anyway, if they found a way to lower the fine for bicycle riders thats a good step in the right direction, so I'm not complaining.
The clerk recommended to schedule an appointment with a judge for possible reduction, so I will update the thread how it goes. Thanks for the tips and responses! |
I used to visit traffic court to burn time waiting for my wife (I know, weirdo) and watched a guy who had argued his way out of a no-helmet citation try to get his second no-helmet thrown out by court precedent. The judge sent him home with his tail between his legs...
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nemeseri,
Can you describe what you were doing to be issued the citations? Did you slow at all? If you did a rolling stop $197 (are there additional court costs as with a motorized vehicle citation?) still seems very high to me. I know SF is a very different environment than say running a stop sign in the flatlands of Mtn. View, but how egregious was your offense? |
Originally Posted by SClaraPokeman
(Post 17821130)
nemeseri,
Can you describe what you were doing to be issued the citations? Did you slow at all? If you did a rolling stop $197 (are there additional court costs as with a motorized vehicle citation?) still seems very high to me. I know SF is a very different environment than say running a stop sign in the flatlands of Mtn. View, but how egregious was your offense? The second was with a little bit more speed, but still not dangerous or outrageous (slowed down, looked around, but from outside it might have looked I wasn't carefully enough). Because it wasn't a bicycle specific trap I feel like it was perfectly alright from the policeman to give a ticket in that situation. |
Originally Posted by nemeseri
(Post 17825914)
Slowed down, looked around carefully (that's why I didn't even notice the policeman standing 40 ft in front of me),
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Originally Posted by gpburdell
(Post 17825993)
Not to be an a-hole, but I have to ask the question -- if you didn't see a cop how carefully were you really looking? Was he hidden in some way or wearing plainclothes?
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Update: Today I went to court hearing and I got my ticket reduced to $115 from $197. I found the process quite straightforward. I had to wait about 35 minutes. The judge was nice and I didn't have to say anything, he instantly presented my options. They even gave me the option to choose the deadline for the payment if I needed more time.
So based on what I saw in the court room today, I'd advice everyone to go to the court hearing for a possible reduction. Obviously it takes some time, but it wasn't a bad experience. Thanks for the advice! |
Good deal:thumb:
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Originally Posted by nemeseri
(Post 17896200)
Update: Today I went to court hearing and I got my ticket reduced to $115 from $197. I found the process quite straightforward. I had to wait about 35 minutes. The judge was nice and I didn't have to say anything, he instantly presented my options. They even gave me the option to choose the deadline for the payment if I needed more time.
So based on what I saw in the court room today, I'd advice everyone to go to the court hearing for a possible reduction. Obviously it takes some time, but it wasn't a bad experience. Thanks for the advice! Were there add-on fees in addition to the $115?. Traffic school also? |
Originally Posted by SClaraPokeman
(Post 17914844)
Nemeseri,
Were there add-on fees in addition to the $115?. Traffic school also? |
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