powpow

Ah, now I get it. Bike clubs are aristocratic and arrogant because they want you to wear a helmet.

RapidRobert

They don't "want" me to wear a helmet, they demand everyone wear a helmet, always and everywhere. That created the gap, and their vehemence regarding them widened it.

This thread is about CM, not helmets. I'm just pointing out that CM offers an unrestricted group ride experience to those in the city that don't want to "gear up" to do it. Are there "tools" riding amongst the vast majority of good, fun-loving casual cyclists that define CM? Yes. Do they ruin it for the crowd and its purpose now? Yes. Are there aristocratic and arrogant "tools" riding with bike clubs? Yes, plenty.

Ygduf

Given that in the single year I've been riding I've personally known like 4 people who have crashed and destroyed helmets (thereby preventing damage to their heads) I think you're going to find that you just made this thread about helmets.

But anyway, to speculate, I bet bike clubs don't want the liability of having someone on their organized group ride without a helmet either for insurance reasons, or for perception that someone who doesn't wear a helmet doesn't value their brain.

I don't wear a helmet when I ride on campus (I should), but I barely ever break 14mph. Too many pedestrians, curbs and other riders around. So when I'm on campus, lidless riders don't bother me at all. But if I'm descending some road at 30+mph and I see a guy wearing just a dew rag, it makes me wonder if he doesn't value his life, is he more likely to do something silly and endanger mine?

One of my work friends didn't wear a helmet for our first rides. After our 3rd plowed into the side of a van which turned in front of him at the Canada intersection and only avoided serious brain injury by crushing like an inch of foam in his helmet, the first guy started wearing one. Didn't feel like a coincidence.

prathmann

Grizzly Peak leaves it up to each ride leader to specify in the ride description - seems to be about an even split.

RapidRobert

Thank you very much, Prathmann! I'll certainly look them up.

Ygduf, I'm going to leave it right there out of respect for the thread, despite having just as many examples, statistics and anecdotal stories from my 40 years on a bike to balance yours. Anyhow, my beef is certainly NOT with helmets, it's with the vehement attitude regarding them from very many of those who wear them toward those who don't. And my point was that that vehemence helps fuel the "finger-in-your-face" attitude of some (not the best, and a small but obvious minority) in the CM crowd. Ride On!!!

jinws

I don't think I'm exaggerating at all. Think about these tools riding brake less in the opposite direction down on a one way street running reds then have the nerve to cuss or give the bird to angry motorist who barely avoids hitting them or hitting someone else because of the said tools. I wonder how you would feel if a car hit you because they were trying to avoid some dude running a stop sign/red light.

When your actions can possibly cause others harm, I have no problems with you getting "crushed" by a car.
You wanna blow through a red light going 20 mph, you deserve what ever comes at you. It's your own doing.

I certainly would not and do not wish you harm if all you intent was to block traffic and delay me from going home. But it is still stupid and does nothing to mend the fragile relationship between drivers and riders. When you piss off a driver, they'll take it out on the entire cycling community.

ROJA

I for one certainly hope I don't get what I "deserve."

RapidRobert

Consider the driver stuck behind a few club riders out on a twisting hilly road that won't move over and ride single file to let them pass. That driver, perhaps a hot-head, is going to be just as pissed off at those "dumb cyclists" as the city drivers you mentioned. Drivers don't differentiate between experienced riders and malicious dopes on a bike, carbon fiber and steel. All they know is "bicycle", "in MY way". That driver on a hill is gonna' blast around those cyclists, quite possibly in a very unsafe way, putting any oncomming driver AND the cyclists at big risk of harm. Do THEY to deserve to be "crushed by a car"?

I see THAT behavious all the time. I've seen it plenty in the hills between here and Santa Cruz. I've read about that problem all over Marin county. I was just hearing about it from a non-biking friend in Sebastopol, saying such cyclists shouldn't be riding on those kinds of roads because there are drivers like HIM on the road. What's the difference? How do you think drivers feel when trapped behind a group of bike clubbers out for a training ride, on a hilly winding road?

Dchiefransom

I wonder if they have a different insurance company than the other local clubs?

prathmann

I doubt it. The insurance company recommended by LAB does not require the clubs they insure to have any specific helmet policy, nor does their recommended waiver form (available at the LAB site) mention helmets. AFAIK, they are the most used insurer for local bike clubs.

As another example, Cherry City just changed their policy this year to require helmets - it was not requested by their insurer nor did it have any impact on their premiums.

RapidRobert

Thank you Prathman for that very interesting information! My jaw is literally hitting the table. I don't know what to say about that and I'm certainly not going to say all 20 paragraphs of it in this thread here. Wow. ............Wow.

jinws

When you do something stupid and get hit by a car, I don't feel sorry for that person. Especially if you ride like you don't give a ****. When you ride with no regard to your own or anyone else's safety. If that person gets "crushed" by a car, he/she deserved it. You do not need to be on the street.

no, not trolling at all. I feel very strongly about idiots on the street. They endanger themselves and they endanger everyone else.

You're argument sounds like it makes a little sense but let's take a look. You are comparing a few, let's just say 10 +/- 5 riders on a country road to a few hundreds of rides in busy downtown san francisco. You are comparing a few drivers out on a scenic road where they expect to see cyclists and might have to wait a couple mins if not second to make a pass to hundreds of drivers trying to get home stuck for many mins with no possibility of pass through. You are comparing a few cyclists going as fast as they can to hundreds of bikers moving slowly with the intention of distrubing traffic. what else can i say, a few cyclists taking the entire lane for their safety to a bunch of riders taking the entire street, just because they can, and have the numbers. Are you really comparing a dumb driver making a stupid move putting others in jeopardy to a driver being forced to into hitting others due to a jackass running a red light. really?!

Really guy? are we really talking about the same thing here. Would you like to dig up some news articles or footage of club riders starting arguments with old couples in minivans? Have you seen club riders gulping down a 40s before a nice training ride in the hills? You seem to have some issues with guys that takes their cycling too seriously, I'm no club rider, I find most of them to be too "elite" to ride with the likes of me. And you seem to be stuck in the phrase" get crushed by a car". I don't believe I said anything about CM riders deserves to be hit by cars, unless you think all CM riders are idiots that do stupid ****. I have friends that ride in CM. I don't support it and I don't wish them harm. My friends don't ride like the people I think "deserves" what they get, do you?

Well, I don't know. Are you trying to be a smart-ass making a comment or are you offended because you are one of these guys I'm talking about. Running busy downtown intersections at full speed. Hitting pedestrians crossing the street. Confront drivers and pedestrians fully knowing it was your fault. How often do you cut off Muni buses on mission street? How often do you run a red forcing cars to make emergency stops. If you're simply offended because I don't value the life of a person I just described, I have no reply for you. That's just how I feel on the topic, if you think less of me, I'm ok with that.

Beaker

I think it may officially be time to conclude