canklecat

My rhetorical questions...
...were to point out that empirical evidence is a valid basis for further analysis. There's a gray zone between anecdotal and empirical, in terms of scientific research. But lack of data doesn't mean the empirical evidence was wrong. Only that it's not completely known how and why something works, not that it doesn't actually work at all.

There's more than enough empirical evidence that cannabis -- in the "marijuana" form (now considered a pejorative or epithetical word due to its origin) -- has psychoactive properties. Nobody honestly disputes that. Science simply attempted to discover how and why it works, and that's still a work in progress.

Plenty of folks say CBD works for them. I was doubtful, mostly because some friends were a mite too enthusiastic and shared preposterous memes claiming cannabis cured cancer. In my opinion they were just stoners desperately trying to justify enjoying pot. I don't think it needs justification. If they enjoy it, go for it. But don't muddy the waters. Fortunately, as cannabis, hemp, whatever, has gone more mainstream, those same folks have stopped posting ridiculous unsupported claims for curing cancer, etc.

But as with recreational weed, CBD quality varies, and dosages vary tremendously among individuals. My first trials with various brands of CBD were unsuccessful, and expensive. Most were junk, just hemp oil flavored with terpenes and other stuff. Hemp has a useful place -- the leaves, stems and seeds. Recreational or medicinal cannabis, and quality CBD, need to come from the flower buds. Leaves, stems and seeds are inadequate sources, yet are still often passed off as the real thing. Sorta like presenting a loved one with a bunch of stems with thorns and saying "I bought you some roses."

The one legitimate variety of CBD I tried back in summer 2018, when I was still in a lot of pain from being hit by a car, was PlusCBD Oil (labeled +CBDoil on packaging), a brand most often seen in health food shops because of effective marketing and good quality at a somewhat middling-high price. The gelatin capsules and oil tinctures are usually supplied in 10mg and 15mg doses. I took it as directed and experienced little or no relief. (A manager at a local health food store suggested kratom instead, which has worked effectively for me. A whole 'nuther product that's still in a gray zone.)

But increasing the dosage did the trick. I usually take 50-100 mg a day, so I buy the strongest potency stuff that's affordable. And research indicates that effective dosages of Epidiolex are quite high for seizure disorders, and it takes 200 mg or more of CBD to be effective where it's recognized as a treatment for some disorders. Due to the theorized connection between vagal response and migraines I hoped CBD would be useful for preventing or minimizing my frequent headaches, which started as a kid and have persisted for more than 60 years. I've already tried many prescriptions from many neurologists, had CT scans, MRIs, the works, over many decades. So I was willing to consider anything. I wouldn't call CBD a miracle cure for severe headaches, but it sure helps when I take enough of it. And there are fewer side effects than with Cafergot, Imitrex injections, massive dosage of valproic acid and other prescriptions. And it's been effective for mild to moderate chronic pain.

Just an anecdote. But enough of those together begin to resemble empirical evidence. On that basis we knew high-THC cannabis had psychoactive properties. Nobody needed a peer reviewed research paper to prove pot gets people stoned. So why not consider anecdotes about relief from pain and anxiety from CBD in the same light?

If I had considered my youthful experiments I would have remembered that I usually tolerated a much higher dosage of any recreational substances than my friends. I was often the designated sane/sober person at parties because I reacted less strongly to everything and always seemed straight -- even when my brain was telling me differently. I remember a long and pleasant conversation with my mom and stepdad at their apartment in Greenwich Village around 1973 after I'd taken some rather potent windowpane that I'd gotten from some hippies in the park. The only visual psychoactive effect was a glass jar of multicolored pebbles on the table kept swimming around like serpents. But I always liked snakes so that was amusing. I don't think my mom or stepdad had any idea. They weren't exactly tolerant of that sort of thing. My experiences with LSD were exactly as Timothy Leary, Art Clokey (the Gumby creator) and others had described -- positive mind opening experiences.

I never had any bad experiences and never actually saw anyone else having a bad experience, although I heard apocryphal tales from acquaintances. I do remember a girlfriend who seemed a bit flaky. Her friends worried that she had taken far too much LSD too often. I didn't know her before so I had no basis for comparison.

But I don't take this stuff lightly -- figuratively or literally. I've mentioned before in similar conversations my extended family have a history of addiction, mostly alcoholism, some drug abuse. I'm very aware of the risks. In my case the genetic predisposition skipped over me. It's not willpower. I just don't get the craving other folks do. I don't even care for the sensation of recreational cannabis anymore. But I appreciate the potential for medicinal purposes.

Trevtassie

Nicotine Patches: SNAKE OIL..... DEET spray: SNAKE OIL... Diclofenac cream: SNAKE OIL
There are a lot of chemicals that can penetrate skin, kinda why a lot of pesticides and herbicides have warnings about wearing gloves!!!

bbbean 

While CBD advocates frequently insist it is necessary to carefully research the source of one's CDB, I haven't seen many recommendations of where and how one should conduct that research. It seems that every CBD vendor presents their product as purer than the driven snow, and with CBD still unregulated by the FDA, there are no obvious third party agencies to go to to evaluate the quality of the CBD you are getting. Any suggestions for third party evaluations, particularly ones that don't have a vested interest in selling teh product?

FBOATSB 

Here is one: https://www.ushempauthority.org/
There may be others by now.

canklecat

Lazarus Naturals, the company I buy from most often, emphasizes the importance of third party testing and publishes those results on its website. They're using Medicine Creek Analytics.

Pixis Labs (now Columbia Labs after merging with a food testing lab) also offers independent testing for hemp/cannabis products.

There are other labs. Every reputable hemp/cannabis maker/seller will list the independent lab they use.

Interest in credible testing may have increased last year due to the hysteria about vape products causing respiratory illness. Speculation ran rampant because a few people suffering vape related respiratory illness were young teenagers who either didn't disclose what they were vaping or how much. Under pressure some of the "victims" finally revealed they vaped cannabis or hemp products in addition to nicotine/cigarette substitutes. So it wasn't clear whether the respiratory illnesses were due to major vape makers like Juul, or to bootleg unregulated THC concentrates that may have sourced untested additives. There was even some speculation that the heating elements may have contained cadmium.

Researchers struggled to figure if there was a primary cause and to identify possible causes for these illnesses. One of the possible complications considered during this process was whether a commonly used fungicide may have been a problem. During the drying process hemp/cannabis may be vulnerable to fungus, and there were questions about whether fungicides were used. While inert to humans after harvesting and prep of the product, it turns out one fungicide could convert to a form of cyanide when heated or burned.

So there's a lot of pressure on businesses dealing in hemp and cannabis products to distinguish themselves from the rabble through branding and reputation, including certified independent lab testing.

bbbean 

Maybe I should have been more specific - any third party verifiers from outside the CBD industry, a la consumer reports?

fooferdoggie 

my wife uses https://www.charlottesweb.com/ it helps her anxiety and stress levels. but never helped pain. but she may not take enough for pain. it gets expensive taking it every day. about 190.00 for 2.5 months.

canklecat

I've found full spectrum CBD (with the low permissible THC content) to be somewhat effective for moderate pain, but it's no substitute for prescription pain meds. Kratom is more effective for moderate to severe chronic pain. But that carries a whole nuther set of complications. Read the available info and filter out the credulous hype.

Research indicates there's a sweet spot for the balance between the non-psychoactive CBD compounds and the low amount of THC. Too much or little THC seems to be less effective for pain. CBD isolates did absolutely nothing for me (although isolates seemed to help my 17 y/o Siamese cat, who's doing better since I added CBD to her water). And heavily concentrated THC vapes offered by friends didn't seem to help with my pain -- and I don't really care for the psychoactive effects. It was fine when I was a teenager in the 1970s, but now I quickly get bored with the buzz.

Regarding prices, check out Lazarus Naturals and Sunsoil. Both have among the lowest prices I've found, and both are effective. Both are under the 0.3% THC content, which may be a concern for folks who are drug tested for employment or other conditions. Slightly higher THC content may help other folks, without going overboard into feeling stoned.

Lazarus has a more generous discount program for veterans so I've bought from them for a couple of years. They also offer generous discount programs for folks with documented disabilities and/or low income. Check the website for details. My cost for Lazarus high potency CBD full spectrum oil is much lower than the listed price of the most comparable product on the Charlotte's Web site -- currently around $80 for 120ml/4 oz of high potency CBD with 50mb per ml. Without the veteran's discount it's $200, still a bargain compared with every other seller of comparable strength CBD.

fooferdoggie 

it looks about 5 times the potency of what my wife is using. I will get her a small bottle to test out. I may need something for pain in the future. my esophagus os super sensitive and so far I cant handle any pain meds.

canklecat

I get the high potency because it's economical. I don't often use a full 1ml dropper for the 50mg dosage. Usually I take 1/4 dropper at a time. The larger bottle lasts me almost two months.

Occasionally I've used up to 2ml or more in a single day for worse pain and it seemed to help. Only side effect was it made me a little drowsy. Most people adapt quickly to THC and side effects dissipate. It appears the benefits of THC remain -- relief from anxiety, pain, etc. -- even after any slight unwanted side effects dissipate.

You might find it useful for esophageal discomfort. I began using CBD in 2018 after an old thyroid problem suddenly worsened and developed into cancer. The goiter was so big on the left side that lobe tripled or quadrupled in size. It pushed my esophagus and trachea sideways, distorting and constricting both. It became so difficult to swallow I was on a mostly liquid and soft food diet throughout most of 2018 and early 2019 until surgery helped relieve the problem.

While the CBD isolates I first tried did nothing for pain, it did relieve the esophageal discomfort and sense of gagging and choking on almost everything I tried to swallow. I tried several brands before settling on Lazarus Naturals -- in part because it was the most effective I tried, but the low standard price and generous discount program were big incentives.

Sunsoil are also good and they've experimented with a discount program for February. They're probably evaluating whether it's economically feasible to change their prices. Hemp is an extremely competitive business and getting more so. It'll be tougher to justify high prices for CBD, especially when some prices are comparable to those of recreational and medicinal cannabis, which is becoming more readily available as the stigma and legal consequences diminish.

fooferdoggie 

good info. I could have used this 1.5 years ago when my esophagus went nuclear it killed me 24/7 for three months it destroyed my life and there was no relief but extreme diet control. carbs are my enemy and have caused heartburn my whole life. so they had go.

Beebomb

I’m allergic to any NSAID. What do people use if they can’t take Advil, Tylenol, aspirin or anything to keep pain in check? CBD works but I need to take quite a bit. TIA

fooferdoggie 

don't know booze?

canklecat

Kratom. It's more effective than CBD for pain. CBD is good for mild to moderate pain up to around 6 on the 10 scale, maybe only 5 for some folks. That's still worthwhile for some of us. But kratom is more effective for moderate to serious pain.

This assumes you're not a candidate for structured, medically supervised pain management. Some health systems/insurance cover that, some don't. Some folks respond well to physical therapy, massage, topical analgesics, etc., some don't.

I use CBD pretty much every day, and have done since summer 2018 when pain from a neck and shoulder injury persisted long after my initial 10-day supply of prescription pain med was gone. I was hit by a car in spring 2018, the second time I've been hit. The first time, in 2001, broke my neck and back in six places and I needed a cane to walk until 2014. I've lived with pretty bad chronic pain for years and as long as it's below 5 I can deal with it. Doesn't take much to make the pain tolerable. If it will knock pain level 5 or 6 down to 2-3, that's good enough. I can still take aspirin for chronic inflammation.

But some nights the neck and shoulder pain are pretty severe and I can't sleep. I have prescription muscle relaxers, and my doc would authorize Tramadol or hydrocodone if I needed it, but I dislike the side effects. I like to be active, ride my bike, work out, etc., and that stuff makes me drowsy and lazy. Kratom doesn't. That's a common experience with many active folks who've switched to kratom for chronic pain due to old injuries from sports, accidents, etc.

I've written a lot about this before (check previous posts in this and other threads), but basically: red vein kratom is strongest for pain, but can also cause drowsiness; green vein is comparable to CBD for pain, and a mild stimulant comparable to coffee or other caffeinated beverage; white vein is mostly a stimulant with relatively little pain relief effect. I don't really care for the white vein -- it's more like drinking too much coffee on an empty stomach, and increases my BP and HR a little above normal. Occasional small doses of the green or red work fine for me for severe morning or mid-night pain.

Despite the occasional ill-informed media reports, kratom is pretty safe when used reasonably. Whenever I hear negative reports including "overdoses" it's invariably associated with chronic substance abusers who are combining kratom with prescription opiates or illegally obtained opiates, booze, etc.

And the tiny handful of deaths associated solely with kratom turned out to be massive overdoses, far beyond what any reasonable person would take. In one case, an otherwise healthy and fit guy, the autopsy indicated he used approximately 90-100 grams in a single dose. To give an idea of how ridiculously massive that is, the normal dose is 1-7 grams (I usually take only one-half to 3 grams at most, and not every day), and a 250 gram packet lasts me up to three months. This guy took a month's worth at one time. He was either trying to get wasted or had a pain or anxiety problem that cannot be solved with leaves from a bush. He needed to see a pain specialist and therapist. Or just buy some weed or THC vape if he wanted to get high. If I took that equivalent in coffee, Benadryl, Tylenol, or loperamide (an OTC anti-diarrhea medicine that some idiots actually take massive amounts of in an effort to get high), I'd end up in the ER, if I was lucky. That's on me. That's not an indictment of common substances that most people take responsibly.

For now, I'd suggest buying kratom from Etha Natural Botanicals. They Pasteurize all their kratom, powders and compressed tablets (kratom tastes bitter so some folks prefer capsules or tablets). While some vendors do this as a safeguard against salmonella, e coli, etc., with the current coronavirus pandemic it's even more important because all kratom comes from Indonesia. Or it can be heat treated at home -- make it as a hot drink with water heated to 160F or up to boiling. It's not bad with hot chocolate. Etha is more expensive but a good company. I usually buy powders from Mitragaia but I haven't checked with them recently to find out whether the coronavirus pandemic has affected their supply chain. Good company, really good prices, quick shipping.

canklecat

While alcohol does relieve physical pain for some folks, it has the opposite effect for me. I have Hashimoto's, an auto-immune disorder that finally killed my thyroid a couple of years ago. I can't metabolize alcohol anymore. A single beer, glass of wine or shot of anything gives me hangover sensations within an hour or two. Headache, joint and muscle aches. Sucks, because I liked beer, but it doesn't like me anymore. A friend runs a brewpub with some of the best beers and ales I've ever tasted. But now all I can drink is their cold brewed coffee or kombucha.

Beebomb

Awesome info thanks. I ve been managing pain with deep stretch and massage but it only goes so far. I had an accident almost 2 years ago (got bike serviced and the guy didn’t put my peddle back on properly) I had a nasty fall. Still have dents and shadow hematoma that get sore after long periods of peddling.

bbbean 

I'm not sure that "webehigh.com" is going to be the gold standard for objective information and perspective.

Cyclist0100

I've had two back surgeries and have been a "full-spectrum" cannabis user for many years to successfully manage my chronic nerve pain and arthritis. However, I'm very suspicious of the CBD craze. These over-the-counter CBD products are very expensive, and there seems to be a lack of tranparency as to how each product is made and what it actually contains. I personally would not waste my money on anything you can buy at the vitamin store or the pharmacy.

canklecat

Try Lazarus Naturals. They just reduced their prices again. Best CBD I've tried and an increasingly great value.

They also have a discount program. Check the website for details. As a veteran that knocks the price even lower.

Best and quickest acting I've found is the high potency full spectrum oil, 50mg CBD per ml -- I prefer the chocolate mint. Begins working within 15 minutes, while the capsules can take up to 2 hours.

Good quality CBD *may* be more effective for some pain, with some people, than other forms of cannabis with more THC. Some research indicates there's a sort of sweet spot in the balance of CBD and THC, for pain relief. Too much THC may make it less effective for pain. I've tried regular cannabis and compared it with the Lazarus THC I mentioned, and the psychoactive effects didn't enhance the pain relief, although it might be more effective for anxiety. Generally I prefer CBD since there's little or no psychoactive effect (some folks who are sensitive may experience mild effects from high potency CBD, even with the THC level at or below 0.3%).

Carbonfiberboy 

I don't understand your last sentence. You don't use any supplements, vitamins, or minerals, or prescription medications? Second sentence from last, which seems to inform the last sentence, because there is no such information available for anything you can buy at a vitamin store or pharmacy or have prescribed for you, other than what's on the label, same with CBD. Good luck at finding 3rd party lab tests for your aspirin.

I also thought everything I saw online or at my local pot shop was way too expensive. Then I discovered that Hammer Nutrition is now retailing CBD products, which is federally legal because it's distilled from hemp and thus cannot contain THC, there being none in agricultural hemp. $19.95 for their lowest potency, 30 doses of 8mg of CBD, It works. Nothing spectacular, but I sleep more soundly and wake up in the morning with my legs less sore. The effect seems to increase for the first few days of use. I'm not sure yet if I want to spend 67 cents/day for this effect but I just might. I'll decide when I finish the bottle.

Why it might work for you: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/cbd-oil-benefits
Why it might not work for you: https://www.healthline.com/health/CB...it-doesnt-work

Skullo

Canklecat
Do you have an informed opinion on CBD and interaction with statin drugs?
Ther are warnings that CBD can have similar interactions like grapefruit with some statins.
I don’t have very much chronic pain,but the claimed benefits for better sleep greatly interests me.
I am not due for a Dr visit until late fall.
I am avoiding all medical facilities for obvious reasons .Just looking for more info on the subject. No idea of what my doctors opinion on CBD will be.

Cyclist7485

My wife has a so far undiagnosed neurological condition. She has tremors that are more like “vibrating” than visible shaking, chronic pain in all of her muscles, intermittent weakness, and a loss of her muscular endurance. Had a zillion tests performed with no diagnosis. The neurologist has put her on a drug for nerve pain that keeps the pain manageable, and a relaxer that reduces the intensity of the tremors, but she still has difficulty sleeping because the symptoms will come back at night or when she is really tired.

Instead of asking for more prescription drugs, she tried some Floyd’s of Leadville full spectrum 1800mg cbd drops.
It just works. When the meds fail, the drops will put her right to sleep. And she will sleep a full night when she uses the drops.

Made a believer out of me.

Cyclist0100

I meant that I would not purchase any CBD that is sold over the counter at vitamin stores or pharmacies.

I agree 100%.

Another thing to consider is the body's ability to process cannabinoids such as CBD and THC. I am one of those rare people who cannot process cannabinoids through the gut without lecithin. For most of my life cannabis edibles (no matter how potent) did absolutely nothing for me. About two years ago I found some research confirming that for a small a small percentage of people cannabinoids are destroyed in the gut before they can enter the blood stream. The solution is lecithin, which is a binder commonly used in baking. Lecithin simultaneously binds to water and oil creating an even distribution of mixed ingredients. It results in a better texture for bread, cake, muffins, etc. In the case of cannabis edibles, lecithin also binds to cannabinoids; and because lecithin easily passes through the gut it acts as a "helper" to move the cannabinoids into the bloodstream.

Scientific reseach not only proves that lecithin works for people like me who have trouble processing cannabinoids through the gut, it's also beneficial for people who don't have this problem. Lecithin increases the bio-availability of cannabinoids by as much as 300%. No matter the stated content of CBD on the label of "X" product, your body will only absorb a fraction of that. Many factors impact how much of anything our body will absorb, and everyone is different. By increasing bio-availbility through the use of lecithin you're increasing efficacy.

Carbonfiberboy 

That's why CBD tinctures work so well - you put it under your tongue. It hopefully is absorbed immediately and never makes it to the digestive system. I do the same thing with B12 supplement tabs and for the same reason.

That is interesting about the lecithin, I might try putting some in my edibles. How much? Not that they don't work now . . .

Cyclist0100

Regarding the addition of lecithin to CBD products, it should do its job no matter when the lecithin is added. However, lecithin usually requires some heat to ensure that it spreads evenly thoughout the mixture. So, if you choose to add some lecithin to your vile of CBD oil be sure to heat the vile for a short period of time. 225 degrees fahrenheit (107 celsius) for 10-15 minutes should be plenty. Heating CBD or THC oil to these temperatures will not cause any degradation to the cannabinoids. Also, if you're concerned that lecithin might "ruin" that expensive CBD or full spectrum oil you just purchased, it won't. Lecithin is totally harmless.

Types of lecithin... Soy lecithin and sunflower lecithin are the most common and either will do the job. If you're concerned about GMO soy just use sunflower lecithin. They both work just fine. When I make full-spectrum oil I add 1 tsp. of liquid soy lecithin and 1/2 tsp of powdered sunflower lecithin to a 2oz. mixture. 1/2 tsp to 3/4 tsp of either should be plenty. I use more because my body really needs the lecithin for the mixture to work.