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Old 10-04-18, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tusk
Initial complaint was to my general practitioner. Referred to the gastroenterologist who ordered a Barium swallow for initial diagnosis. Then came an endoscope, which revealed erosion and scarring treated with a round of acid suppressing prescriptions (pantoprazole I think). Refill denied by insurance but authorized after script from GP for another round (Omeprazole? I'd have to check).

I was hoping that Cuyuna would have some additional insight on an alternative prevention as I don't like being tied to the little purple pill. Someone that performs 1000+ endoscopes a year must have greater knowledge on the subject than I do.
See my post 12. I forgot to say, no food within 3 hours of bedtime. That's conventional wisdom which I can seldom manage but it makes sense. But the things I mention in 12 might be working for me. You're a much more advanced case, but still the simple things help.

As you can see, physicians are science-based, which means that they disdain alternative treatments or prevention since those things are never based on RCTs, partly because there's no money in studying them and partly because they come in endless variety. They want studies which pit one pill against another. Because of my polymyaglia rheumatica (PMR), I'm taking quite a range of OTC antioxidants and anti-inflammatories, including low-dose prescription prednisone, a very powerful anti-inflammatory. For whatever reason, my GERD is gone, just gone. Because it's such a mix of confounders, no telling really why, except that I threw the kitchen sink at it and it worked.

For the range of conventional treatments, see: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...t/drc-20361959
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Old 10-04-18, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Au contraire, mon ami:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1936305/ That last qualification is the reason a reflux sufferer needs to see a doctor. Read and make an appointment: https://www.consumerreports.org/drug...for-heartburn/
Diagnosing and treating esophageal reflux is what I do for a living. Every. Single, Day. Arguing with you is pointless given your firm belief that your command of Google trumps my 4 years of medical school, 5 years of residency, and 35 years of specialty practice.

Frankly, I just don’t have the energy to try to correct such a vast array of misconceptions and misinterpretations of medical literature.
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Old 10-04-18, 06:59 PM
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Sorry to see you go. I was hoping to learn something from a reliable source.
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Old 10-04-18, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna

Diagnosing and treating esophageal reflux is what I do for a living. Every. Single, Day. Arguing with you is pointless given your firm belief that your command of Google trumps my 4 years of medical school, 5 years of residency, and 35 years of specialty practice.

Frankly, I just don’t have the energy to try to correct such a vast array of misconceptions and misinterpretations of medical literature.
So if I'm wrong, and all the doctors I've seen and who've prescribed for me (3, including 2 internists) are wrong, please tell us sufferers what we and our doctors should have done, rather than only attack the experience and views of other posters. So far, you haven't done anyone any good. I understand this is not how patients talk to doctors, nor how doctors talk to each other, but this is not that kind of forum. We try to help each other. Please be helpful.
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Old 10-05-18, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tusk
Initial complaint was to my general practitioner. Referred to the gastroenterologist who ordered a Barium swallow for initial diagnosis. Then came an endoscope, which revealed erosion and scarring treated with a round of acid suppressing prescriptions (pantoprazole I think). Refill denied by insurance but authorized after script from GP for another round (Omeprazole? I'd have to check).

I was hoping that Cuyuna would have some additional insight on an alternative prevention as I don't like being tied to the little purple pill. Someone that performs 1000+ endoscopes a year must have greater knowledge on the subject than I do.
It wouldn't be possible to tell you anything about your reflux condition based on what you've related above. The upper GI is generally a pointless test in the workup of GERD. You have erosions on endoscopy so you clearly have GERD. It's appropriate to treat those erosions with PPI medication, and it might even be appropriate to treat you with long term such acid suppression, but what about the followup endoscopy? Did they biopsy? Did they comment on the the GEJ? Barrett's esophagus? Hiatus hernia? What is your Body Mass Index? What did they recommend for followup and ongoing surveillance? Did they set you up for any kind of lifestyle evaluation and modification? Generally speaking, your choices are going to be life-long medication, like omeprazole or pantoprazole, with lifestyle changes (diet, eating habits, weight loss)...or surgery to actually restore the anti-reflux barrier.

Whatever, your visit to the gastroenterologist sounds pretty typical and pretty lame...."You have GERD. Here...take these pills". It doesn't sound like you have had anything that even remotely resembles a thorough workup for this pain-in-the-ass disease and its potentially deadly consequences.
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Old 10-05-18, 07:41 AM
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IIRC, there was no biopsy. No comments on the other fun problems you list. No follow-up endoscopy or surveillance. Just take these pills, avoid spicey foods, and call me if you need to. So yeah. Pretty lame. BMI? 5'11" 232# Not as bad as it sounds. Honest Doc, I have a really large frame.

What I have noticed: simple carbohydrates cause problems. A diet Dr. Pepper gave me some issues yesterday so now that's out. I can avoid most of my problems with that avoidance (sucks, my daughter makes these cookies...), not eating too late nor too much.


I appreciate your comments. You in Georgia? Sounds like I need a new gastroenterologist.
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Old 10-05-18, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Tusk
IIRC, there was no biopsy. No comments on the other fun problems you list. No follow-up endoscopy or surveillance. Just take these pills, avoid spicey foods, and call me if you need to. So yeah. Pretty lame. BMI? 5'11" 232# Not as bad as it sounds. Honest Doc, I have a really large frame.

What I have noticed: simple carbohydrates cause problems. A diet Dr. Pepper gave me some issues yesterday so now that's out. I can avoid most of my problems with that avoidance (sucks, my daughter makes these cookies...), not eating too late nor too much.


I appreciate your comments. You in Georgia? Sounds like I need a new gastroenterologist.
I think you need a real workup by someone who actually understands the disease and is committed to treating it.

I'm a long way from Georgia, but I know some very good reflux specialists in Atlanta, Macon, Columbus, and Albany.
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Old 10-05-18, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna


Did they comment on the the GEJ? Barrett's esophagus? Hiatus hernia? What is your Body Mass Index? What did they recommend for followup and ongoing surveillance? Did they set you up for any kind of lifestyle evaluation and modification? Generally speaking, …


.
'Hiatal' Hernia...
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Old 10-05-18, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by McBTC
'Hiatal' Hernia...
What about it?
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Old 10-05-18, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna
What about it?
You wrote, hiatus...
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Old 10-05-18, 10:00 AM
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Stomach herniating through the diaphragmatic hiatus is called a lot of things, including "hiatal" hernia and "hiatus" hernia.
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Old 10-05-18, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna
It wouldn't be possible to tell you anything about your reflux condition based on what you've related above. The upper GI is generally a pointless test in the workup of GERD. You have erosions on endoscopy so you clearly have GERD. It's appropriate to treat those erosions with PPI medication, and it might even be appropriate to treat you with long term such acid suppression, but what about the followup endoscopy? Did they biopsy? Did they comment on the the GEJ? Barrett's esophagus? Hiatus hernia? What is your Body Mass Index? What did they recommend for followup and ongoing surveillance? Did they set you up for any kind of lifestyle evaluation and modification? Generally speaking, your choices are going to be life-long medication, like omeprazole or pantoprazole, with lifestyle changes (diet, eating habits, weight loss)...or surgery to actually restore the anti-reflux barrier.

Whatever, your visit to the gastroenterologist sounds pretty typical and pretty lame...."You have GERD. Here...take these pills". It doesn't sound like you have had anything that even remotely resembles a thorough workup for this pain-in-the-ass disease and its potentially deadly consequences.
Thank you, sir.
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Old 10-05-18, 02:15 PM
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I only have the bleeding in one arm. The other arm had a fungus infection that I probably picked up in the gym. I used an OTC antifungal cream and it was gone in 3 days. Gerd is no fun. I discussed this with my doctor and she said that my choice to use Nexium for three weeks every six months is something she is seeing in her practice with a lot of her patients. I have made many diet changes. I eat things like pizza and spaghetti only rarely. I stopped using weed in 1974 and quit tobacco in 1976. I was never a big alcohol drinker but I haven't drank in 10 years. When I had my colonoscopy in 2007 I had an endoscopy as well because sometimes food does not go down all the way. The doc that administered the endoscopy said no erosion was present and my swallowing issue is probably due to a esophageal spasm that sometimes occurs in some people. My brother has the same issue and he tells me to drink a half a glass of water before I eat. I can't remember what my BMI is but my doc says it's good.
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Old 10-05-18, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray9
When I had my colonoscopy in 2007 I had an endoscopy as well because sometimes food does not go down all the way. The doc that administered the endoscopy said no erosion was present and my swallowing issue is probably due to a esophageal spasm that sometimes occurs in some people.
But no biopsies, no followup, no plan for surveillance? No management advice...just "esophageal spasm occurs in some people"? Good lord...such is the sad state of the treatment of GERD in 2018. It baffles me why doctors like that can't figure out why the incidence of esophageal cancer has increased by 600% over the last 30 years. Obviously, what we've been doing to treat that disease has not been working. Granted, that was 11 years ago. It would be my hope that that same doctor is more enlightened today.
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Old 10-05-18, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna
But no biopsies, no followup, no plan for surveillance? No management advice...just "esophageal spasm occurs in some people"? Good lord...such is the sad state of the treatment of GERD in 2018. It baffles me why doctors like that can't figure out why the incidence of esophageal cancer has increased by 600% over the last 30 years. Obviously, what we've been doing to treat that disease has not been working. Granted, that was 11 years ago. It would be my hope that that same doctor is more enlightened today.
I understand your concern but there are many factors involved in the rise in this cancer not the least of which is chronic intake of alcohol coupled with decades of smoking. In fact alcohol is a major trigger of esophageal cancer. Your graph does not address the lifestyle choices of the afflicted. Alcohol suppresses the immune system.
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Old 10-05-18, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray9
I understand your concern but there are many factors involved in the rise in this cancer not the least of which is chronic intake of alcohol coupled with decades of smoking. In fact alcohol is a major trigger of esophageal cancer. Your graph does not address the lifestyle choices of the afflicted. Alcohol suppresses the immune system.
person I know who got it years ago (when he was in his mid 50s) didn't drink much if any alcohol but ate a lot of junk food, was a bit overweight, didn't exercise, traveled a lot and pounded glass after glass of diet coke with dinner...
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Old 10-05-18, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray9
I understand your concern but there are many factors involved in the rise in this cancer not the least of which is chronic intake of alcohol coupled with decades of smoking. In fact alcohol is a major trigger of esophageal cancer. Your graph does not address the lifestyle choices of the afflicted. Alcohol suppresses the immune system.
No. Alcohol intake is related to squamous cell cancer of the esophagus, the incidence of which is declining. The increase in esophageal cancer is adenocarcinoma, which is directly related to Barrett's esophagus, which is directly related to reflux disease. Smoking is also related to adenocarcinoma, but of course the rate of smoking is declining. The two things that we see over the last 30 years that are increasing at the same rate as esophageal cancer are the increasing use of proton pump inhibitor medication for GERD treatment (Prilosec, for example), and increasing rates of obesity (which is directly related to GERD).

You're right that in some ways lifestyle choice plays a role in the rather amazing rate of increase in adenocarcinoma of the esophagus, but mainly as it relates to obesity. A body mass index greater than about 30 is about the point where reflux get increasingly problematic. For reference, about 1/3 of the US population is frankly obese (BMI > 30) and 2/3 is overweight or obese (BMI > 25). Those obesity rates have increased dramatically since about 1990, as has the incidence of GERD (and the incidence of adenocarcinoma of the esophagus).

As a lifestyle contributor to esophageal adenocarcinoma, the impact of alcohol and smoking pales in comparison to the contribution of obesity.



.

Last edited by Cuyuna; 10-06-18 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 10-06-18, 02:28 AM
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There is also a genetic component contributing to the issue particularly with respect to Barrett's esophagus. Anyone with GERD can certainly be tested although there may be evidence already obvious in their family history. If a person has relatives with Barrett's esophagus or the cancer that follows it then steps should be taken promptly to get tested.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2817884/

https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/re...esophagus.html
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Old 10-06-18, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ray9
There is also a genetic component contributing to the issue particularly with respect to Barrett's esophagus. Anyone with GERD can certainly be tested although there may be evidence already obvious in their family history. If a person has relatives with Barrett's esophagus or the cancer that follows it then steps should be taken promptly to get tested.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2817884/

https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/re...esophagus.html
Familial tendency is a pretty small component of the population who gets esophageal adenocarcinoma (about 5%), but because the prognosis is so poor, it’s clinically relevant. Family history of esophageal cancer or Barrett’s esophagus will certainly be part of the history that your doctor obtains. If he/she doesn’t ask you about that then you are seeing the wrong doctor.

Right now, it’s not clear exactly what the inherited component is...is there a familial tendency to have GERD, to have Barrett’s esophagus, or to have esophageal adenocarcinoma? Probably all three, but it really doesn’t matter from a clinical standpoint. If you have recurrent and persistent GERD, you should get an endoscopic exam with attention to the lower esophagus, with particular attention to narrow-band imaging of it, and possibly biopsy or optical endomicroscopy, in order to identify Barrett’s esophagus if present. This is all especially true of the population most at-risk for esophageal adenocarcinoma... obese (BMI>30) white males between the ages of 50 and 70 with a history of recurrent reflux symptoms. Especially if there’s a family history of GERD, Barrett’s esophagus, or esophageal adenocarcinoma. Surveillance is also important. Currently, screening interval is debatable, anywhere from 3 to 5 years for those at risk. There's no debate that EGD findings from 11 years ago are likely irrelevant to what might be going on in one's esophagus today.

Interestingly, most people these days are relatively accepting of their doctor’s recommendation to embark on a colonoscopy screening schedule but many still tend to pooh-pooh the suggestion that they should get an upper GI endoscopy. “aah...it’s just a little heartburn doc...no big deal”. I can tell you...colon cancer is a walk in the park compared to esophageal cancer. Sadly, there are still many doctors, including gastroenterologists, that are pretty clueless on the issue too. “Aah...you just have a little GERD. Here, take these pills for awhile”.

To clarify the genetic screening concepts Ray9 mentioned, for the most part there’s no consensus on methods or practicality of genetic screening. It’s expensive, not readily available, and it’s not clear that genetic screening will have any more impact on the disease than a careful family history. Those things could change in the future, once we know more and with additional studies, but for right now there's no need to head down to your local genetic testing station.

Last edited by Cuyuna; 10-06-18 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 10-06-18, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna
No. Alcohol intake is related to squamous cell cancer of the esophagus, the incidence of which is declining. The increase in esophageal cancer is adenocarcinoma, which is directly related to Barrett's esophagus, which is directly related to reflux disease. Smoking is also related to adenocarcinoma, but of course the rate of smoking is declining. The two things that we see over the last 30 years that are increasing at the same rate as esophageal cancer are the increasing use of proton pump inhibitor medication for GERD treatment (Prilosec, for example), and increasing rates of obesity (which is directly related to GERD).

You're right that in some ways lifestyle choice plays a role in the rather amazing rate of increase in adenocarcinoma of the esophagus, but mainly as it relates to obesity. A body mass index greater than about 30 is about the point where reflux get increasingly problematic. For reference, about 1/3 of the US population is frankly obese (BMI > 30) and 2/3 is overweight or obese (BMI > 25). Those obesity rates have increased dramatically since about 1990, as has the incidence of GERD (and the incidence of adenocarcinoma of the esophagus).

As a lifestyle contributor to esophageal adenocarcinoma, the impact of alcohol and smoking pales in comparison to the contribution of obesity..
Absolutely. But when one already has a BMI of 22.5, then the impact of alcohol and cannabis becomes much larger, would you not agree? This is a cycling forum and it's very probable that there are few obese individuals listening to us here. I did an interesting test yesterday. I've noticed for the past couple of years that about 20 minutes after I start a ride, I'll have what feels like pain in my heart. That gradually goes away as the ride goes on. My cardiologist assures me that it's not my heart. He thinks it's maybe some sort of lung or chest pain. Thinking about this thread, yesterday when that "heart pain" started, I drank 1/3 bottle of water. Bingo, pain went away, i.e. maybe heartburn (reflux). Maybe I'll talk to my gastro doc whom I've been seeing for 20 years. Maybe the reason it always went away is that I'd eventually start drinking as a normal part of the ride. Maybe I simply need to start doing that earlier. Oddly enough, that pain does not recur later in the ride, so definitely a maybe and maybe it really is just my lungs opening up. Everything's complicated.
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Old 10-07-18, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Absolutely. But when one already has a BMI of 22.5, then the impact of alcohol and cannabis becomes much larger, would you not agree? This is a cycling forum and it's very probable that there are few obese individuals listening to us here. I did an interesting test yesterday. I've noticed for the past couple of years that about 20 minutes after I start a ride, I'll have what feels like pain in my heart. That gradually goes away as the ride goes on. My cardiologist assures me that it's not my heart. He thinks it's maybe some sort of lung or chest pain. Thinking about this thread, yesterday when that "heart pain" started, I drank 1/3 bottle of water. Bingo, pain went away, i.e. maybe heartburn (reflux). Maybe I'll talk to my gastro doc whom I've been seeing for 20 years. Maybe the reason it always went away is that I'd eventually start drinking as a normal part of the ride. Maybe I simply need to start doing that earlier. Oddly enough, that pain does not recur later in the ride, so definitely a maybe and maybe it really is just my lungs opening up. Everything's complicated.

Reflux occurs when intragastric pressure exceeds lower esophageal sphincter pressure. So anything that increases intragastric pressure (like obesity), or anything that decreases LES pressure (like alcohol or cannabis) will likely cause reflux. Obesity’s role in reflux relates to its effect on the increased intragastric pressure that it causes, and to the hiatus hernia displacing the LES that it tends to promote. An obese person drinking alcohol or smoking weed is likely to get reflux. A thin person might get reflux too, but perhaps less likely due to decreased intragastric pressure. There are many other factors too, including a variety of esophageal conditions/diseases and some physiologic conditions of the stomach and esophagus. The answer to your question is that a person with normal BMI is generally less likely to get reflux from drinking/smoking than an obese person doing the same.

The most common cause of non-cardiac chest pain is esophageal spasm or dysmotility. The most common cause of esophageal spasm/dysmotility is reflux. A person coming to me with those symptoms...the standard process would be an EGD to evaluate the anatomy of the esophagus and stomach (hiatus hernia, stricture, erosive esophagitis, Barrett’s esophagus, esophageal cancer), ambulatory pH testing to determine the extent of reflux and how it correlates with symptoms, and high resolution manometry to evaluate esophageal and LES performance (spasm, hypercontractility, outflow obstruction). If your gastroenterologist hasn’t recommended this process for your long-standing reflux and your chest symptoms for which you “eat Pepcid like candy”, especially if it’s been more than 3 years, then I would suggest getting a second opinion.
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Old 10-07-18, 09:28 AM
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Cuyuna, I have learned a bunch. Thanks for sticking around and commenting.
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Old 10-07-18, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Cuyuna



Reflux occurs when intragastric pressure exceeds lower esophageal sphincter pressure. So anything that increases intragastric pressure (like obesity), or anything that decreases LES pressure (like alcohol or cannabis) will likely cause reflux. Obesity’s role in reflux relates to its effect on the increased intragastric pressure that it causes, and to the hiatus hernia displacing the LES that it tends to promote. An obese person drinking alcohol or smoking weed is likely to get reflux. A thin person might get reflux too, but perhaps less likely due to decreased intragastric pressure. There are many other factors too, including a variety of esophageal conditions/diseases and some physiologic conditions of the stomach and esophagus. The answer to your question is that a person with normal BMI is generally less likely to get reflux from drinking/smoking than an obese person doing the same.

The most common cause of non-cardiac chest pain is esophageal spasm or dysmotility. The most common cause of esophageal spasm/dysmotility is reflux. A person coming to me with those symptoms...the standard process would be an EGD to evaluate the anatomy of the esophagus and stomach (hiatus hernia, stricture, erosive esophagitis, Barrett’s esophagus, esophageal cancer), ambulatory pH testing to determine the extent of reflux and how it correlates with symptoms, and high resolution manometry to evaluate esophageal and LES performance (spasm, hypercontractility, outflow obstruction). If your gastroenterologist hasn’t recommended this process for your long-standing reflux and your chest symptoms for which you “eat Pepcid like candy”, especially if it’s been more than 3 years, then I would suggest getting a second opinion.
Thanks for the advice, though I'm not the Pepcid kid. I don't take antacids, never did. Stomach feels just fine. I only get that "heart pain" near the start of hard aerobic exercise, no other time. I usually start a bike ride with an empty stomach, too. So that's all a bit odd. Nonetheless, I will talk to my gastro.
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Old 11-10-18, 03:00 PM
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My brother-in-law dropped dead yesterday. I saw him about a month ago with a 30-pack in is hand. He was 59. I've been taking Nexium for two weeks and all my Gerd symptoms have disappeared. I usually take it for six weeks twice a year. My nurse practitioner told me I'm not the only one doing that. I have taken a month off from riding to let my saddle sores heal. Next week I'll be back on my seated recumbent bike. I only take one 500 mg beetroot capsule a day and my BP was 112/49 the last time it was checked. I'm not getting a bunch of tests for Gerd. I need a hernia operation even though it doesn't prevent me doing anything. My surgeon moved to Oregon> Maybe Ill ride my bike there to get that hernia dealt with.
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Old 11-10-18, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray9
My brother-in-law dropped dead yesterday. I saw him about a month ago with a 30-pack in is hand. He was 59. I've been taking Nexium for two weeks and all my Gerd symptoms have disappeared. I usually take it for six weeks twice a year. My nurse practitioner told me I'm not the only one doing that. I have taken a month off from riding to let my saddle sores heal. Next week I'll be back on my seated recumbent bike. I only take one 500 mg beetroot capsule a day and my BP was 112/49 the last time it was checked. I'm not getting a bunch of tests for Gerd. I need a hernia operation even though it doesn't prevent me doing anything. My surgeon moved to Oregon> Maybe Ill ride my bike there to get that hernia dealt with.
Also lost a 59-year old -- wife's cousin -- to cancer... attended eulogy last week. He was 100% teetotaller and many AA friends showed up. Ditto on getting hernia dealt with... not looking forward to it. Dates back to going over the bars in an offroading bodyslam.

Last edited by McBTC; 11-10-18 at 10:56 PM.
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