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Giro D'Italia (spoilers)

Old 05-19-15, 06:25 PM
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Oh! Sucks! That is an act of sportsmanship, that shouldn't have been penalized. Rules are rules, I guess, but this was an innocent heat of the moment thing. I'm now officially rooting for Porte.
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Old 05-19-15, 08:53 PM
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Wow, didn't know about the two minute penalty. It's a shame as things were getting quite tasty. It is all looking good for Contador. Quite enjoyable Giro so far.
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Old 05-19-15, 09:24 PM
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that's what i like about Porte. consistency ...never fails to disappoint.

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Old 05-19-15, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WCroadie
Yeah I'm with most of you guys, not a fan of Porte or Sky, but the rule is kinda stupid. If Clarke wants to give a competitor his wheel, why punish the recipient? I'd prefer to see Porte beaten fair and square. It's another dumb UCI rule.
Why punish either of them? Clarke's been fined 200f and 2 minutes too, but it doesn't affect his race in any way.
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Old 05-20-15, 02:06 AM
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I guess I'm in the minority on this but the rule makes some sense to me. Would the OGE guys have helped Aru or Contador in the same situation? Maybe, but I'm inclined to think not. I know cycling has a long history of nationality blurring the team lines but I don't think that justifies it.

That said, two minutes seems incredibly harsh in this context.
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Old 05-20-15, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
Why punish either of them? Clarke's been fined 200f and 2 minutes too, but it doesn't affect his race in any way.
Yeah I agree, neither should be punished.
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Old 05-20-15, 06:54 AM
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Agree. True sportsmanship should always be applauded.
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Old 05-20-15, 07:38 AM
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They were punished because that is what the rule says. If someone doesn't like the rule then they should ask for it to be changed, but if that is what is stipulated then not much can be done. I would prefer if there was no penalty as it would make for a more entertaining race, but if that's what the rule says then there isn't much to defend.
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Old 05-20-15, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PepeM
They were punished because that is what the rule says. If someone doesn't like the rule then they should ask for it to be changed, but if that is what is stipulated then not much can be done. I would prefer if there was no penalty as it would make for a more entertaining race, but if that's what the rule says then there isn't much to defend.
Except the UCI has a long and stupid history of deciding when rules will be applied and when they will not. ie they decided to make everyones saddle flat before one stage. at Paris - Roubaix like 30 riders jumped the barriers at a train crossing and about got themselves killed but the rule to disqualify everyone who did it was ignored. Riders share water bottles and food all day long. "Gianni Meersman (Etixx-Quick-Step) admitted he received a wheel from Sky earlier in this Giro, but no one took notice of that." Some times riders who miss the time cutoff are given an exception. sometimes they get sent home. depends on who is deciding.
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Old 05-20-15, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by WCroadie
Yeah I'm with most of you guys, not a fan of Porte or Sky, but the rule is kinda stupid. If Clarke wants to give a competitor his wheel, why punish the recipient? I'd prefer to see Porte beaten fair and square. It's another dumb UCI rule.
I guess that's designed to avoid reserve teams on cycling. Teams of only 9, not 18. Sounds fair.
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Old 05-20-15, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rebayona
I guess that's designed to avoid reserve teams on cycling. Teams of only 9, not 18. Sounds fair.
On Sunday at the ToC, Daniel Oss, former leadout man for Cannondale, gave Peter Sagan, former sprinter for Cannondale, a leadout for the mid-stage time bonus sprint at a time when Sagan's understaffed Tinkoff team were all too exhausted to raise a gallop after chasing every breakaway all day. In the past, Contador has had former teammates pace him up mountains when he's run out of support himself. You see riders on opposite teams working together all the time to form and/or chase down breakaways, and share food and bottles while doing it. Any of these things had/have a much bigger effect on the eventual race result than a friend helping out a friend behind the peloton in the last kms of a flat stage.

And as said before, the UCI and race organisers the world over constantly pick and choose which regulations to uphold and when. This is a weird time to enforce a rule when they let 30 guys jump a railroad crossing at Paris Roubaix.
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Old 05-20-15, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
On Sunday at the ToC, Daniel Oss, former leadout man for Cannondale, gave Peter Sagan, former sprinter for Cannondale, a leadout for the mid-stage time bonus sprint at a time when Sagan's understaffed Tinkoff team were all too exhausted to raise a gallop after chasing every breakaway all day. In the past, Contador has had former teammates pace him up mountains when he's run out of support himself. You see riders on opposite teams working together all the time to form and/or chase down breakaways, and share food and bottles while doing it. Any of these things had/have a much bigger effect on the eventual race result than a friend helping out a friend behind the peloton in the last kms of a flat stage.

And as said before, the UCI and race organisers the world over constantly pick and choose which regulations to uphold and when. This is a weird time to enforce a rule when they let 30 guys jump a railroad crossing at Paris Roubaix.
I remember last year when members of Team Colombia helped Quintana when Movistar couldn't. That was a little unfair to other teams if you ask me, but still legal.

I see your point, but there should be limits. One thing are "unwritten rules/codes" between them, but giving your tyre or bicycle to an opponent is a good place to draw a line.
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Old 05-20-15, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by patrickgm60
Yes, tough break - GC contender mechanical on flat stage only ~5 km from the finish.

Is this an obscure rule, that no one on Team Sky knew about? They could have given RP their wheel or bike. I also wonder how far back the team car or wheel moto was.
About as obscure as offside in Football (Gridiron, Soccer or Rugby).

That is to the riders. Fans could easily be unaware of it because it never happens.

Best one that is really like this is throwing your stick at a puck in Hockey or your glove at a ball in baseball. Very illegal. The former is a penalty shot and in some instances a flat out goal. A fan may never learn that rule because it never happens at the top level becasue the players all know better.
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Old 05-20-15, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
On Sunday at the ToC, Daniel Oss, former leadout man for Cannondale, gave Peter Sagan, former sprinter for Cannondale, a leadout for the mid-stage time bonus sprint at a time when Sagan's understaffed Tinkoff team were all too exhausted to raise a gallop after chasing every breakaway all day. In the past, Contador has had former teammates pace him up mountains when he's run out of support himself. You see riders on opposite teams working together all the time to form and/or chase down breakaways, and share food and bottles while doing it. Any of these things had/have a much bigger effect on the eventual race result than a friend helping out a friend behind the peloton in the last kms of a flat stage.

And as said before, the UCI and race organisers the world over constantly pick and choose which regulations to uphold and when. This is a weird time to enforce a rule when they let 30 guys jump a railroad crossing at Paris Roubaix.
+1 I have never heard of the rule enforced in the past and a really odd time to enforce it. A rule is a rule unless it is a UCI rule. Subject to enforcement depending the race director to interpretation or disposition that day. An act of pure class and sportsmanship sullied by a dubiously run organization. And what specifically is helping another rider/team anyway? Because everyday the peloton helps each other regardless of team. what breakaway would succeed unless riders from other teams work together. I think this rule was made for situations where riders colluded to win or lose stages for payoffs and this clearly was not the case. This was helping a mate. This penalty sucks and a weak interpretation of the rule in my view.
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Old 05-20-15, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
On Sunday at the ToC, Daniel Oss, former leadout man for Cannondale, gave Peter Sagan, former sprinter for Cannondale, a leadout for the mid-stage time bonus sprint at a time when Sagan's understaffed Tinkoff team were all too exhausted to raise a gallop after chasing every breakaway all day. In the past, Contador has had former teammates pace him up mountains when he's run out of support himself. You see riders on opposite teams working together all the time to form and/or chase down breakaways, and share food and bottles while doing it. Any of these things had/have a much bigger effect on the eventual race result than a friend helping out a friend behind the peloton in the last kms of a flat stage.

And as said before, the UCI and race organisers the world over constantly pick and choose which regulations to uphold and when. This is a weird time to enforce a rule when they let 30 guys jump a railroad crossing at Paris Roubaix.
Originally Posted by Gallo
+1 I have never heard of the rule enforced in the past and a really odd time to enforce it. A rule is a rule unless it is a UCI rule. Subject to enforcement depending the race director to interpretation or disposition that day. An act of pure class and sportsmanship sullied by a dubiously run organization. And what specifically is helping another rider/team anyway? Because everyday the peloton helps each other regardless of team. what breakaway would succeed unless riders from other teams work together. I think this rule was made for situations where riders colluded to win or lose stages for payoffs and this clearly was not the case. This was helping a mate. This penalty sucks and a weak interpretation of the rule in my view.
Actually, the rule is pretty straight forward. There is no mis-interpretation going on. It's black and white.

2.3.012
All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food, drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.


So...riders can give each other bidons, food, etc, and furthermore there is nothing in there about colluding within the boundaries of racing. Colluding happens all the time, as witnessed just recently by Aru and Contador while trying to drop Uran. Breakaways amongst different teams is collusion by definition. So, there is really no argument that Porte should not have gotten a penalty, it's as clear as day in the rules.
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Old 05-20-15, 01:54 PM
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The most flagrant violation of this rule ever:



Horner should have gotten a lifetime ban. Or is this OK because he wasn't pushing the other rider?
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Old 05-20-15, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by patrickgm60
My quick reading of the UCI regs indicates the penalties are mandatory, whereas the linked articles says the UCI "may" impose fines and penalties. Sloppy/lazy journalism?



Lesson: Don't accept help from a rival, no matter how innocent the help appears to be. : )
Nah,

I'd say the journalism is correct. The thing is most rules are worded to give some leeway. Any rider who has a mechanical problem in the middle of the race will work back through the cars. You are not allowed to draft the cars, but some is permitted. Any rider who has made it ti the TDF level knows the judgement part of the rules and also knows the commissioners are more lenient about someone off the back because of a mechanical than they are for someone off the back because they get dropped on a climb.

Since this is Hockey Playoff time I am reminded of a situation in Hockey that I think is likely the same. For almost all penalties the refs can use some judgement. If every instance that could be called a hook or slash was called the norm would be skating 3 on 3. But one call allows no judgement. If a puck is sent directly over the glass in the defensive zone it is a penalty, period. Only issue is did it barely hit the glass or another stick. Giving a wheel is going ot be in that class, no choice.

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Old 05-20-15, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cthenn
Actually, the rule is pretty straight forward. There is no mis-interpretation going on. It's black and white.

2.3.012
All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food, drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.


So...riders can give each other bidons, food, etc, and furthermore there is nothing in there about colluding within the boundaries of racing. Colluding happens all the time, as witnessed just recently by Aru and Contador while trying to drop Uran. Breakaways amongst different teams is collusion by definition. So, there is really no argument that Porte should not have gotten a penalty, it's as clear as day in the rules.
No one's arguing the rule is unclear, tho either Porte and Clarke didn't know the rule or they chose to disobey it. The rule is stupid and as others pointed out, the UCI has a lot of stupid rules that they sometimes enforce and sometimes don't. They should be consistent.
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Old 05-20-15, 11:06 PM
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Who thinks Porte can take two minutes from his deficit on the TT stage? More? Less?. How about Uran?
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Old 05-20-15, 11:11 PM
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not me.

... not him either.
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Old 05-21-15, 12:19 AM
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2 minutes from Aru, maybe.

2 minutes from Contador, nah.

I really hope Porte doesn't lose the Giro by less than 2 minutes now, it'd kinda ruin whatever the outcome is.
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Old 05-21-15, 12:55 AM
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I hate when I sign up for a group ride and it rains the day of the event.

Is the peloton fatigued or do the teams with good legs just not care if breakaways succeed?
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Old 05-21-15, 09:11 AM
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There's a lot of fatigues legs in the peloton. What was it, 30 riders in the lead group at the foot of the final climb today?

Great finish by Gilbert. Contador's shoulder looks fine. Aru and Porte both lost a smidge of time on that final ramp. I don't think there's any doubt who the strongest man in this Giro is.
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Old 05-21-15, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by WCroadie
No one's arguing the rule is unclear, tho either Porte and Clarke didn't know the rule or they chose to disobey it. The rule is stupid and as others pointed out, the UCI has a lot of stupid rules that they sometimes enforce and sometimes don't. They should be consistent.
I guess what I'm saying is can someone point out a case where wheels were swapped between different teams and NOT penalized? I would whole heartedly agree with you if there was such an example. Rules being "stupid" are clearly up to interpretation as well.
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Old 05-21-15, 09:31 AM
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Aru looks cooked.

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