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Is LA still 7 X TdF champ

Old 06-22-15, 01:50 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by buddy View Post
So is Greg LeMond the only American winner of the TOF?
Yes.

Ben
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Old 06-23-15, 10:41 AM
  #27  
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Still 7x champ. If a tree falls in the forest it makes a sound, even when you cover your ears and pretend otherwise. But it's hard to argue that LeMond is not the greater champion, even before they tried to rewind and erase history.
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Old 06-23-15, 01:36 PM
  #28  
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sorry, I still have an issue with USADA and Tygart basically hand-waving away the statute of limitations for LA. Had they not done so, they still could have stripped him of the 2004 and 2005 wins if I remember the timing correctly. I'm no LA fanboi but the ends do not justify the means. LeMond Rules
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Old 06-23-15, 01:43 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by dbf73 View Post
sorry, I still have an issue with USADA and Tygart basically hand-waving away the statute of limitations for LA. Had they not done so, they still could have stripped him of the 2004 and 2005 wins if I remember the timing correctly. I'm no LA fanboi but the ends do not justify the means. LeMond Rules
Had he chosen to try to defend himself he certainly could have used that argument. The USADA themselves actually said they would have stopped at the 2005-2004 wins if he had been cooperative. He chose to stonewall them, they chose to throw the book at him, and he knew fighting it in any way would have made him look even worse.
The guy is a dirtbag cheat and liar. Statute of limitations rules are generally in place to protect people from being unfairly persecuted. What happened to LA was justice.
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Old 06-23-15, 11:47 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by mprelaw View Post
His results pre-EPO: 4 TdF starts, 3 DNF, 1 stage win, 1 finish at 36th overal GC. Draw your own conclusions.

Armstrong was originally a bit stockier but had enough natural power & endurance to do very well at one-day & shorter stage races. Le Tour is crazy tough & it's fairly common for talented cyclists to still require years to excel there. I think Lance might have had some trouble cutting weight in transition from power rider to all-round GC contender.

W/O doping I'd guess he'd have at least later worked up to TDF GC top-ten.

BTW after NFL "Inflate-Gate" scandal I saw old star quarterback Fran Tarkenton being interviewed. He tried to steer conversation to rampant NFL doping (ie far more important than inflation nonsense) & the interviewer not the least bit interested. Bizarrely, pro wrasslin' seems to have really steered away from doping. In times past almost all the top guys did steroids but now many of them are far less muscled. Of course wrasslin' is fixed anyway.
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Old 06-24-15, 01:00 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by cale View Post
I don't think he has any claim to TDF victories.
The people he beat would disagree with you.

I'll go with them.
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Old 06-24-15, 02:06 PM
  #32  
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You can't claim victories when they've been erased from the record books. You can point to the record books and say that they once contained his name as a 7 time champ but the cheat was stripped of his victories and has no claim to them.

What other people "go with" is not always a strong indication of the validity of a claim. Even if you vigorously object.
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Old 06-25-15, 06:49 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by cale View Post
You can't claim victories when they've been erased from the record books. You can point to the record books and say that they once contained his name as a 7 time champ but the cheat was stripped of his victories and has no claim to them.
But then there is reality. Who is going to stop him from claiming the titles? You're left with only with the record book to point to as it exists today. Maybe not tomorrow, and certainly not as it existed 5 years ago. Everything else remains. Fortunately for us all the universe doesn't revolve around the UCI. If it did, planes would fall out of the sky, loved ones would disappear before our eyes and the sun would no longer rise in the east.

This kind of alternate reality thinking seems to be peculiar to cycling. Pete Rose broke the rules of baseball, he is banned from baseball for life and will likely never be in the hall of fame, yet the records remain. All over the world politicians lie and cheat to get elected. Some get caught and are forced to resign, others are simply executed. But the history remains because most people recognize that you can't change a past sequence of events. What is it about cycling? How can you learn from the past if you bury your head in the sand and pretend it never happened.
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Old 06-25-15, 07:42 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by sprince View Post
This kind of alternate reality thinking seems to be peculiar to cycling. Pete Rose broke the rules of baseball, he is banned from baseball for life and will likely never be in the hall of fame, yet the records remain.
Vacating victories is not unique to Baseball. You get caught cheating in the Olympics, your gold medal gets vacated and passed down.

You cheat in college football, you lose your national championship, see e.g. USC.

And the Pete Rose analogy doesn't hold up. There's zero evidence that Rose cheated in anyway to get his 4000 plus hits. He's banned from baseball, not for cheating as a player, but for gambling as a manager.

Originally Posted by sprince View Post
can you learn from the past if you bury your head in the sand and pretend it never happened.
Wut? Leaving Armstrong as the winner of the 7 TDF's would be burying your head in the sand and ignoring the entire doping issue. You can't address doping in cycling if you act like that never happened.
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Old 06-25-15, 09:04 AM
  #35  
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Sorry but I don't think the Olympics and college football are shining examples of, anything really. Should either of those be a role model for cycling?

I don't even watch baseball and I know this one... The reason that betting on baseball is not permitted is because betting could, and does, effect the outcome of sport. And yet his record as a manager remains in the "record book". What about his years as a player/manager? Should they expunge exactly half of those stats?

So address doping by acknowledging that the UCI was corrupt, that the anti-doping agencies failed miserably, that most of the riders were doping (both before and after Armstrong), and move on. He won 7x, he was found to have cheated, these things happened in that order, they are the past and you can't change it.
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Old 06-25-15, 09:09 AM
  #36  
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If he would have just admitted to it in the beginning and not been such a huge ****** he most probably would not have had all his titles stripped.
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Old 06-25-15, 11:16 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by sprince View Post
But then there is reality. Who is going to stop him from claiming the titles? You're left with only with the record book to point to as it exists today. Maybe not tomorrow, and certainly not as it existed 5 years ago. Everything else remains. Fortunately for us all the universe doesn't revolve around the UCI. If it did, planes would fall out of the sky, loved ones would disappear before our eyes and the sun would no longer rise in the east.

This kind of alternate reality thinking seems to be peculiar to cycling. Pete Rose broke the rules of baseball, he is banned from baseball for life and will likely never be in the hall of fame, yet the records remain. All over the world politicians lie and cheat to get elected. Some get caught and are forced to resign, others are simply executed. But the history remains because most people recognize that you can't change a past sequence of events. What is it about cycling? How can you learn from the past if you bury your head in the sand and pretend it never happened.
Pete Rose is as big a cheat as LA. LA's legacy and Pete's too. That's in my book.
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