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More Motor Doping?

Old 03-20-16, 10:30 AM
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Leinster
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More Motor Doping?

A couple of Italian riders claimed Demarre got a tow up the Cipressa on his way to winning Milan San Remo. And FDJ have allegedly deleted his Strava file, despite his ds saying they might release his power data.

Demare's Milan-San Remo data file deleted from Strava | Cyclingnews.com

According to race directors, they didn't see him do it, there's no video of him doing it, so the result stands.
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Old 03-20-16, 11:30 AM
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Oh, the old "Sticky Water Bottle". It has been around for years.

I wonder if Power/GPS/HR data will be collected to help verify riding/racing. Of course, drafting will also affect power.
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Old 03-20-16, 01:35 PM
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It was, certainly, a remarkable recovery. Watching on Eurosport it seemed impossible that he should get back on, yet there he was. And it wasn't drafting, he had a teammate come back to help him but those in the bunch would have had much more protection than that.

Most unusual for other riders to accuse the winner of cheating, they must have felt it was pretty outrageous.
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Old 03-20-16, 08:19 PM
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He has the Strava KOM for the Cipressa now, which is <ahem> impressive for a sprinter. Maybe he drafted a teammate who could just bury himself up the climb and not worry about the finish, or maybe he just is that good of a climber who doesn't usually have to show it, but it definitely all looks suspect.
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Old 04-17-16, 10:39 AM
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Just in:

Mechanical doping used in Strade Bianche and Coppi e Bartali, claims investigation | Cyclingnews.com

Of course, UCI cannot ever make the move to heat guns. Far more important than catching a few cheaters is never admitting Greg Lemond was right.

LeMond: The UCI should use a heat gun to detect motors | Cyclingnews.com (May, 2016)

Ben
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Old 04-18-16, 08:51 AM
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If heat is used to detect motors, I wonder how far efficiencies and insulation will go to hide or dissipate heat? I'm no engineer so I have no clue about how possible it would be to hide or avoid excess heat.
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Old 04-18-16, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Far more important than catching a few cheaters is never admitting Greg Lemond was right.
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Old 04-18-16, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratzinger View Post
If heat is used to detect motors, I wonder how far efficiencies and insulation will go to hide or dissipate heat? I'm no engineer so I have no clue about how possible it would be to hide or avoid excess heat.

Yeah, you can dissipate heat better if you increase the surface area of the radiating surface, but when racers start sporting seat tubes with radiator fins, I think the level of secrecy diminishes just a bit, don't you?


And you don't want a motor that is insulated so that it doesn't radiate heat. Bad things would happen.
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Old 04-18-16, 05:18 PM
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Maybe the Domestiques carrying a dozen Water bottles back Up to the Peloton from off the back
where the team car is, to their team mates, can use a little help..
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Old 04-18-16, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Maybe the Domestiques carrying a dozen Water bottles back Up to the Peloton from off the back
where the team car is, to their team mates, can use a little help..
Maybe the domestiques can use those water bottles to spray down the seat tubes of the GC riders and keep them cool.
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Old 04-19-16, 12:44 AM
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I've gotta say, the UCI looks even more pathetic than usual in this case. "We have looked at thermal imaging, x-ray and ultrasonic testing but by far the most cost effective, reliable and accurate method has proved to be magnetic resonance testing,” doesn't do anything to address the substance of the allegations for the Strada Bianche. Who cares is their silly little ipad method is their idea of the "best"? I don't think those infrared hot seat tubes and hubs can be explained away so easily.

But now everybody knows that there will be multiple independent investigators training heat guns at the Giro and TdF this summer. Does that mean that the teams won't cheat? Or will they cheat with impunity knowing that the UCI won't act on independent evidence?
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Old 04-19-16, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Maybe the Domestiques carrying a dozen Water bottles back Up to the Peloton from off the back
where the team car is, to their team mates, can use a little help..
& the Tifosi can ride to their Alpine Col roadside spot, and haul the whole picnic with them ..
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Old 04-19-16, 08:14 AM
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A modern brushless motor and its electronics are very efficient, they should produce very little heat unless it's really overburdened. I was really amazed about ten years ago when those arrived on the R/C car scene and were so much better than the DC motors with commutators - quiet, and cool to the touch after a race. More likely source of heat is the battery, probably.
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Old 04-20-16, 11:44 AM
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I have not found an article that clearly describes what the reporters found out think they found, or the technology that they think is being used.

The video and images that are being reposted on various sites are not of a racer. They are of a older guy riding a motordoped bike (motor in the seat tube) in a demonstration arranged specifically for the story.

If the motor systems use permanent magnets, the magnetic field sensor in an iPad or iPhone will find them easily, whether the motor is running or not. You can download a free magnetic field detector app and try it for yourself.

If the motor systems use metal components, an inexpensive metal detection wand (the kind that focuses detection on a narrow zone at the tip of the wand) will also find them easily. Since racebikes are carbon fiber now, metal in the rims or seat tube would be cause for suspicion.

Random physical checks will also reveal motors, quite readily. Remove crank, spin rear wheel to check it's weight, etc.

In a perfect world, race bikes would be checked with everything from x-rays to thermal imagers and team bikes would be impounded in parc ferme. But there are so many races, about 400 bikes and 2X that number of wheels at each race, races are organized and operated by independent entities (not the UCI), thermal imagers cost $9K each (?), and it seems to me that enough random physical checks plus lifetime bans for the rider plus severe penalties for the team should make the cheat-or-not math unattractive for a pro team. Amateurs in sportives, that's a different story.
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Old 04-20-16, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Just in:

Mechanical doping used in Strade Bianche and Coppi e Bartali, claims investigation | Cyclingnews.com

Of course, UCI cannot ever make the move to heat guns. Far more important than catching a few cheaters is never admitting Greg Lemond was right.

LeMond: The UCI should use a heat gun to detect motors | Cyclingnews.com (May, 2016)

Ben
Near as I can tell that article was a combination of cyclists who know nothing about physics and FLIR techs who hadn't been on a bicycle in 20 years. The only thermal images that looked in any way conclusive were of the bike THAT WAS INTENTIONALLY PLACED. The other images don't really make sense. Of course, the BB and hubs are going to warmer than the surrounding frame. Even a good hub dissipates a ~1 W, that heat has no where to go but into the bottom bracket, which is surrounded by carbon fiber, a notoriously poor thermal conductor.

I have personal access to a FLIR T420 camera, and looking a static image of metal parts can be incredibly confusing. One of the biggest issues, is that surfaces with high reflectivity and low emissivity (Al & Cu) will tend to reflect hotter background sources rather than giving you a true reading. For example, a cyclists legs reflecting off an aluminum hub.

Let's look at what is actually required to make to the alleged motor doping possible:

1) Weight.
Most frames are realistically having 100-300g of weight added, so the motor+battery can't weigh more than that. The motorized bike has to look like every other team bike, and weigh 6.80kg. To date, I've seen zero evidence of a potential motor solution fitting that profile. Everyone would notice if one bike had super-weight weenie components and still weighed 6.80kg, which means that you need to still be at or below weight running Dura-Ace Di2 and C50 wheels. I don't see it. A motorized bike fails the scale test.

2) Space.
Where exactly is this mythical motor located? Again, you have to the standard team equipment
Rear hub: I'm sure there's tons of useless space in a Shimano/SRAM/Mavic/etc hub. No. Oh, and the battery and wires are where?
Rear rim: Magnets in the rim. And the electrical part is where? In the seat stay? You'd practically have to saw a bike in half to even get in there. Not to mention this fails the magnet test laughably.
Crank/BB: Ok, this is at least realistic. How to you get the worm drive down in weight though?

3) Magnetics.
Rare earth magnets are heavy, see point 1. Secondary, the only way to shield the permanent magnet portion of the motor would be with some significant mu-metal wrapping. Causing you to again fail the scale test.
A cell phone magnetometer can pick up a simple rare earth cadence magnet from over a foot away (I personally tested it).

4) Logistics.
You're talking about a team wide effort and massive expense. You literally need a full-time engineer paid to figure out to develop the hardware and packaging required. Every team mechanic has to be in on it, and most of the other team members potentially. By comparison, for standard doping you need the team doctor and riders. And none of the mechanics can ever be allowed to leave the team, because if they did they could rat you out a race and watch your entire team take a major ban.

Some people just want to label cycling as full of cheats, and I have no doubt it is. These discussion just serve to distract from the real issue which is that top cyclists are still using boring old medical doping. The UCI would much rather look tough against a mythical boogeyman than actually admit that there's still a chemical problem.
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Old 04-21-16, 03:22 PM
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Stop it gsa103. It's the easiest thing on earth to do. Get with it.
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Old 04-21-16, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyro View Post
Stop it gsa103. It's the easiest thing on earth to do. Get with it.
But he's right. There's way way more chemical doping than there is motor doping. Also, infinitely harder to detect.
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Old 05-02-16, 01:09 PM
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Here you go: Got caught cheating
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Old 05-02-16, 04:53 PM
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Meh. Any more, pro sports are becoming like scifi: both require a "willing suspension of disbelief".

SP
OC, OR
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Old 06-04-16, 02:22 AM
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Hi all,
Something caught my eye at the Giro, stage 20, 11.3km to go.

Nibali loses Chaves and attacks to go over the big climb. At 11.3km to go, now solo Nibali takes a water bottle from the side of the road. Doesn't seem to have any water in it! You can tell. He then puts the bottle in is holder and immediately the bike seems to take an un-natural acceleration up hill! without pedalling! ( I even asked the mrs to look and she agreed!) I have heard batteries can be hidden in bottles. He then goes all the way to the top without taking any of the water and ditches the bottle over the top. Doesnt seem to be a constant acceleration all the way to the top but could definitely be a key burst of speed at the right time!! I really hope I am wrong with this, for cycling's sake - but it's worth a look!!
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Old 06-04-16, 11:53 AM
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As an owner of an IR imager and level one thermographer. I would guess that the heat is the reflection of the riders leg as it is almost the same color. Any shiny surface can show reflection and often does.

Thermal Imaging was best described by a expert to me as a liar that tell many truths. You need to be able separate the lies from the truth in IR Imaging.

A piece of black electrical tape on the frame would be useful in these images
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