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Armstrong Tweet at Tour of California

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Armstrong Tweet at Tour of California

Old 05-26-16, 04:09 PM
  #26  
Miele Man
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Originally Posted by mapeiboy View Post
I really don't understand why there is so much hate on Lance . Did he kill lot of people in his cycling career that he is the enemy number 1 even after all those years . As far as I concern they all cheat even to these days except they know how to hide it well . UCI took away his 7 tour wins but have they found a worthy winner ( drug free) for each of those 7 years . That is right , non so far because they knew not one ride was clean .
Read my post #20 in this thread. People hate Lance not because of his doping but because of the extreme lengths he went to in order to hide it. He ruined a lot of people financially only because they kept saying he was doping. Again it's not the doping but the actions he took to hide/protect it that have made people hate the amn.

Cheers
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Old 05-26-16, 05:01 PM
  #27  
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"And others are proud of their modicum of righteousness, and for the sake of it do violence to all things: so that the world is drowned in their unrighteousness.

"Ah! how ineptly cometh the word 'virtue' out of their mouth! And when they say: 'I am just,' it always soundeth like: 'I am just- revenged!'

"With their virtues they want to scratch out the eyes of their enemies; and they elevate themselves only that they may lower others."

(Thus Spoke Zarathustra)
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Old 05-27-16, 10:18 AM
  #28  
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@Crewchief911: Does it not bother you seeing Mark McGwire as coach for the Padres, or is your holier-than-thou attitude selectively biased?

Do you think McGwire is "cleaner" than Bonds? Other than the fact that one is white and the other black and one hit more homers than the other, what's the source of your hatred?

Both cheated. One was forced into retirement while the other got a pass for not wanting to "testify about the past"... and then went on to be a coach for the Cardinals. So now that the "other" is also coaching it's all wrong?

LA beat a whole bunch of cheaters at their own game. He is rightfully banned, but if they don't wipe the records of other cheaters neither should they wipe his. LA was the winner of all those TdF. Let's be consistent in judgement, otherwise it all reeks of hypocrisy, which is really what it is.
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Old 05-27-16, 03:32 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
@Crewchief911: Does it not bother you seeing Mark McGwire as coach for the Padres, or is your holier-than-thou attitude selectively biased?

Do you think McGwire is "cleaner" than Bonds? Other than the fact that one is white and the other black and one hit more homers than the other, what's the source of your hatred?

Both cheated. One was forced into retirement while the other got a pass for not wanting to "testify about the past"... and then went on to be a coach for the Cardinals. So now that the "other" is also coaching it's all wrong?

LA beat a whole bunch of cheaters at their own game. He is rightfully banned, but if they don't wipe the records of other cheaters neither should they wipe his. LA was the winner of all those TdF. Let's be consistent in judgement, otherwise it all reeks of hypocrisy, which is really what it is.
While I don't agree with everything Crewchief911 had to say in his post, his "hatred" as you call it is just his perspective, and I don't see that it has anything to do with black and white-you brought that into it, GreenAnvil. Additionally, Barry Bonds demeanor was far more combative and disagreeable at the time than McGwire-and that has nothing to do with black and white either. What people consistently miss is that LA went after people who disagreed with him or talked about the fact that he was doping AND that he was so completely horrible to others in the process. There are "regular" dopers, and then there's LA, two completely different species, imo.
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Old 05-27-16, 04:17 PM
  #30  
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@dcsix: I agree that LA was toxic. If he wronged people (as we all know he did) then there are legal avenues to address that. But you don't go after athletes' records based on their a$$holeness. These races are not popularity contests. So, if LA doped (and we all know he did), then, you are stripping records/wins based on unfair competition through the use of banned substances. Fair enough. Oh, but you're allowing other wins/records to stand because the guys were nicer dopers?! Gimme a break.

Regarding CrewChief911's comments, it's the same scenario. McGwire was on juice (along with his power twin, Canseco) long before Bonds decided that he had had enough playing clean and seeing McGwire and Sosa enjoy the spotlight. "Healing the Nation" the sportscasters were calling Big Mac's and Sosa's Nintendo homer spree, and Big Mac set the record and it was a great moment of national pride. Bull!! Bonds comes along, who was always the better naturally talented player, obliterates Big Mac's numbers, starts breaking stats rights right and left and, hold on a sec, now it is wrong! Oh that goes beyond Bonds being unlikeable... something is obviously wrong, some order has been uppended and therefore we're going to get him.

CrewChief appears to be a baseball fan, therefore he must know about all of this, and the fact that Big Mac went right from being subpoenaed, to not answering the questions, to being a St Louis batting coach, and no one gave a darn!!! Now, Bonds?? The dirty dude... he must not come close to a baseball diamond for the rest of his life! Please spare me the "it's not about race" argument. We Americans know there's still a LOT we need to come clean about when it comes to race, So I'm going to call it as I see it.

Big Mac, Bonds, and Sosa were all mentioned previously on the thread. You're indignant that Bonds is coaching? Ok. But you don't say anything about Big Mac? C'mon.

And BTW, Bonds has gone on to do some good, even sponsoring a women's cycling team. I'm sure Mr. McGwire has move on too and done himself some redemptive deeds, and perhaps even Sosa as well. Allow them both to coach, or get rid of BOTH.

Now, back to cycling. I don't like what LA did to a lot of people. But I also don't like that he was able to get away with it for so long because there were a LOT of people colluding with him, enabling and protecting him; people who one way or another gained from LA winning, but then went on to cut deals, etc. to save their own derrieres... And do you think the UCI is clean in all of this? I dislike the concept of scapegoating people when there's plenty of people who have done the exact same things getting away for free.

The fact that the UCI haven't assigned winners to those races is simply because they know there's NOBODY they can give those races to. So prosecute LA to the full extent of the law if you like, but in terms of performance, if it is true that the peloton was as dope-infested as it was, either you hit ALL of the era dopers, or accept the fact that LA was in fact the best darn rider of that era. I don't like what he did, but he did win those 7 TdF. Stop referring to LA as if he's some evil Voldemort like the rest of us are squeaky clean. Dude did some serious wrong, let's move on and let him move on as well.
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Old 05-27-16, 04:40 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
@dcsix: I agree that LA was toxic. If he wronged people (as we all know he did) then there are legal avenues to address that. But you don't go after athletes' records based on their a$$holeness. These races are not popularity contests. So, if LA doped (and we all know he did), then, you are stripping records/wins based on unfair competition through the use of banned substances. Fair enough. Oh, but you're allowing other wins/records to stand because the guys were nicer dopers?! Gimme a break.

Regarding CrewChief911's comments, it's the same scenario. McGwire was on juice (along with his power twin, Canseco) long before Bonds decided that he had had enough playing clean and seeing McGwire and Sosa enjoy the spotlight. "Healing the Nation" the sportscasters were calling Big Mac's and Sosa's Nintendo homer spree, and Big Mac set the record and it was a great moment of national pride. Bull!! Bonds comes along, who was always the better naturally talented player, obliterates Big Mac's numbers, starts breaking stats rights right and left and, hold on a sec, now it is wrong! Oh that goes beyond Bonds being unlikeable... something is obviously wrong, some order has been uppended and therefore we're going to get him.

CrewChief appears to be a baseball fan, therefore he must know about all of this, and the fact that Big Mac went right from being subpoenaed, to not answering the questions, to being a St Louis batting coach, and no one gave a darn!!! Now, Bonds?? The dirty dude... he must not come close to a baseball diamond for the rest of his life! Please spare me the "it's not about race" argument. We Americans know there's still a LOT we need to come clean about when it comes to race, So I'm going to call it as I see it.

Big Mac, Bonds, and Sosa were all mentioned previously on the thread. You're indignant that Bonds is coaching? Ok. But you don't say anything about Big Mac? C'mon.

And BTW, Bonds has gone on to do some good, even sponsoring a women's cycling team. I'm sure Mr. McGwire has move on too and done himself some redemptive deeds, and perhaps even Sosa as well. Allow them both to coach, or get rid of BOTH.

Now, back to cycling. I don't like what LA did to a lot of people. But I also don't like that he was able to get away with it for so long because there were a LOT of people colluding with him, enabling and protecting him; people who one way or another gained from LA winning, but then went on to cut deals, etc. to save their own derrieres... And do you think the UCI is clean in all of this? I dislike the concept of scapegoating people when there's plenty of people who have done the exact same things getting away for free.

The fact that the UCI haven't assigned winners to those races is simply because they know there's NOBODY they can give those races to. So prosecute LA to the full extent of the law if you like, but in terms of performance, if it is true that the peloton was as dope-infested as it was, either you hit ALL of the era dopers, or accept the fact that LA was in fact the best darn rider of that era. I don't like what he did, but he did win those 7 TdF. Stop referring to LA as if he's some evil Voldemort like the rest of us are squeaky clean. Dude did some serious wrong, let's move on and let him move on as well.
GreenAnvil, I am the first to scream "racism!" when I see it, I just don't take your point here, I don't see it and don't see the need to bring it in. Whatever. I appreciate your side of it, but I think you're way over the top on it.
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Old 05-27-16, 05:27 PM
  #32  
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I always like to hear from Lance - as does the family. He is / was an amazing talent leaving out the PED use. How he went so long without mishap from crashes to flats speaks to his preparation.
I am disappointed that his results can't really be used for comparison. The current junior group is a level above what both Lemond and Lance were. No idea if it will stick. Ref point - the rider Lance tweated about is 0:2 against a junior in the TT. If nobody gets hurt - big surprises are coming.
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Old 05-27-16, 05:30 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
@Crewchief911: ...
Do you think McGwire is "cleaner" than Bonds? Other than the fact that one is white and the other black and one hit more homers than the other, what's the source of your hatred?

Both cheated....
How / where did McGwire cheat?

As a Lance fan - I am one. But that is I put the blame for cheating on the authorities, not the athletes.
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Old 05-27-16, 06:50 PM
  #34  
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@Doge: Seriously?
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Old 05-27-16, 06:53 PM
  #35  
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@dcsix: Appreciate and respect your perspective too. We're cool.
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Old 05-27-16, 07:02 PM
  #36  
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I still don't understand how LA got away with it for so long. Was it because he was only using EPO that wasn't easily detected? I thought he was "blood doping" as well? Why weren't his blood counts too high? I watched the film on Netflix and came out with more questions than answers. Nobody needs to answer my mostly rhetorical questions but I agree with the sentiment that it wasn't THAT he was cheating, like all the other top riders, but how he reacted to the accusations that makes him a jerk and a bully.
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Old 05-27-16, 09:02 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by sheltonlp View Post
I still don't understand how LA got away with it for so long. Was it because he was only using EPO that wasn't easily detected? I thought he was "blood doping" as well? Why weren't his blood counts too high? I watched the film on Netflix and came out with more questions than answers. Nobody needs to answer my mostly rhetorical questions but I agree with the sentiment that it wasn't THAT he was cheating, like all the other top riders, but how he reacted to the accusations that makes him a jerk and a bully.
"In the interview, broadcast on the Discovery Channel in the UK, Armstrong then admitted to taking performance-enhancing drugs Erythropoietin (EPO), testosterone, cortisone and human growth hormone as well as having blood transfusions." (wiki)
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Old 05-27-16, 09:59 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
"In the interview, broadcast on the Discovery Channel in the UK, Armstrong then admitted to taking performance-enhancing drugs Erythropoietin (EPO), testosterone, cortisone and human growth hormone as well as having blood transfusions." (wiki)
Right, but I don't understand how he got away with it all those years. From some of the testimony their rooms looked more like a hospital unit than a hotel room, crazy.
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Old 05-27-16, 10:01 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
@Doge: Seriously?
Well, yes. I don't follow USA sports so much. I understood he took things legal at the time and that was it. I had not heard he took/was convicted of anything not legal when he use it, so, I wouldn't say he cheated. My belief is very many do cheat - I just like to have a conviction before I say they did. Again - I don't follow baseball.
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Old 05-28-16, 05:53 AM
  #40  
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@Doge: Nice try pulling out the ignorance card when there is such a thing as the internet...

McGwire use of steroids is well known, primarily because 1) he himself admitted to it, 2) his power twin, Canseco, mentions in his book that he himself injected BigMac with the juice (before you discredit Canseco remember that he was the the one that blew open baseball's dope Pandora's box; his statements proved to be true after all), and 3) there is recorded testimony of a dealer that provided McGwire with the stuff.

To me it is funny how on the one hand people say, there is no evidence, I don't recall, etc. and they don't do due diligence to find out for themselves, but on the other hand, depending on who is it we're talking about, yes, absolutely, the guy is guilty! Our selective filters tune in/out depending on what we want to hear. Don't believe me? Look at the current presidential race... (running for cover).

FYI, none of the substances of which McGwire and Bonds were accused of taking were actually banned at the time they took them. McGwire's claim is that he did it for health and not performance reasons (duh), and Bonds' spin was that he never willingly took them (duh).

It's all out there so I won't do the legwork for you buddy.

Our own biases sometimes prevent us from looking at things objectively and impartially.

Back to cycling: Lance Armstrong.

See? The world didn't end and the guy probably didn't feel a thing when I mentioned his name.

Sports records are established based on performance; those are not congeniality contests! Put an asterisk after them if you will but you don't go after some people and not after others based on their shortcomings. If you're going after banned substances then the same measure should be objectively applied to ALL.

Wait... this is pro cycling what we're talking about. What was I thinking??
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Old 05-28-16, 05:59 AM
  #41  
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A final note: while the drugs we're talking about were not banned at the time, the court of public opinion only cared whether or not these two baseball players took ANYTHING to help them.

On strictly legal grounds...
McGwire was wise... he simply pulled a sad face and didn't answer the questions. He should tip his lawyer. Bonds was arrogant and lied under oath.

But semantics aside, both took the stuff and trotted around the bases like freaks of nature.
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Old 05-28-16, 05:59 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
@Doge: Nice try pulling out the ignorance card when there is such a thing as the internet...

McGwire use of steroids is well known, primarily because 1) he himself admitted to it, 2) his power twin, Canseco, mentions in his book that he himself injected BigMac with the juice (before you discredit Canseco remember that he was the the one that blew open baseball's dope Pandora's box; his statements proved to be true after all), and 3) there is recorded testimony of a dealer that provided McGwire with the stuff.

To me it is funny how on the one hand people say, there is no evidence, I don't recall, etc. and they don't do due diligence to find out for themselves, but on the other hand, depending on who is it we're talking about, yes, absolutely, the guy is guilty! Our selective filters tune in/out depending on what we want to hear. Don't believe me? Look at the current presidential race... (running for cover).

FYI, none of the substances of which McGwire and Bonds were accused of taking were actually banned at the time they took them. McGwire's claim is that he did it for health and not performance reasons (duh), and Bonds' spin was that he never willingly took them (duh).

It's all out there so I won't do the legwork for you buddy.

Our own biases sometimes prevent us from looking at things objectively and impartially.

Back to cycling: Lance Armstrong.

See? The world didn't end and the guy probably didn't feel a thing when I mentioned his name.

Sports records are established based on performance; those are not congeniality contests! Put an asterisk after them if you will but you don't go after some people and not after others based on their shortcomings. If you're going after banned substances then the same measure should be objectively applied to ALL.

Wait... this is pro cycling what we're talking about. What was I thinking??
Amen brother.
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Old 05-28-16, 08:06 PM
  #43  
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Was this about Powless or Armstrong?

I do think Lance is fairly out of touch with the youth cycling greats. Powless is good, just not as good as our best 17 and 18 year olds. I expect Lance, Phil and others don't know that yet.
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Old 05-29-16, 05:37 AM
  #44  
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noone else is allowed to call out other people except mzbtc
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Old 05-29-16, 07:11 PM
  #45  
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If the UCI cared (past and present) about cheating they would hand out lifetime bans to anyone caught (not just Lance Armstrong).
Lance was a d**k to a lot of folks but I still say he won those seven tours as well as all the other race wins he was stripped of.
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Old 05-30-16, 06:07 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
@Doge: Nice try pulling out the ignorance card when there is such a thing as the internet...

McGwire use of steroids is well known, primarily because 1) he himself admitted to it, 2) his power twin, Canseco, mentions in his book that he himself injected BigMac with the juice (before you discredit Canseco remember that he was the the one that blew open baseball's dope Pandora's box; his statements proved to be true after all), and 3) there is recorded testimony of a dealer that provided McGwire with the stuff.

To me it is funny how on the one hand people say, there is no evidence, I don't recall, etc. and they don't do due diligence to find out for themselves, but on the other hand, depending on who is it we're talking about, yes, absolutely, the guy is guilty! Our selective filters tune in/out depending on what we want to hear. Don't believe me? Look at the current presidential race... (running for cover).

FYI, none of the substances of which McGwire and Bonds were accused of taking were actually banned at the time they took them. McGwire's claim is that he did it for health and not performance reasons (duh), and Bonds' spin was that he never willingly took them (duh).

It's all out there so I won't do the legwork for you buddy.

Our own biases sometimes prevent us from looking at things objectively and impartially.

Back to cycling: Lance Armstrong.

See? The world didn't end and the guy probably didn't feel a thing when I mentioned his name.

Sports records are established based on performance; those are not congeniality contests! Put an asterisk after them if you will but you don't go after some people and not after others based on their shortcomings. If you're going after banned substances then the same measure should be objectively applied to ALL.

Wait... this is pro cycling what we're talking about. What was I thinking??
They took away Lance 7 tour wins because of drug used and his mean personality . Pantaini is my all time favor climber and he took drugs but still get to keep his tour win . Ullrich admitted took drugs but get to keep his tour win . Like you said apply the rule fairly to all drug users no non at all . I can not stand this cherry picking method of hand out punishment . As far as I concern Lance is still the winner of 7 tours . UCI , what are you waiting for all those years . Show us the drug clean riders on those 7 tour wins you took away from Lance . If you can not find one clean rider then please gives those 7 wins back to Lance because he beat them fair and square .
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Old 05-30-16, 05:20 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Pemetic2006 View Post
If the UCI cared (past and present) about cheating they would hand out lifetime bans to anyone caught (not just Lance Armstrong).
UCI doesn't set doping penalties.
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Old 05-31-16, 07:32 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
UCI doesn't set doping penalties.
Well then if whatever body did bothered to do so. My point stands.
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Old 05-31-16, 08:59 AM
  #49  
asgelle
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Originally Posted by Pemetic2006 View Post
Well then if whatever body did bothered to do so. My point stands.
Maybe the whatever body has a more informed, nuanced view of the situation.
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Old 05-31-16, 10:25 AM
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unio...Internationale

"The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI; pronounced: [y.njɔ̃ si.klist ɛ̃.tɛʁ.na.sjɔ.nal], French for "International Cycling Union") is the world governing body for sports cycling and oversees international competitive cycling events. The UCI is based in Aigle, Switzerland."

"The UCI issues racing licenses to riders and enforces disciplinary rules, such as in matters of doping. The UCI also manages the classification of races and the points ranking system in various cycling disciplines including mountain biking, road and track cycling, for both men and women, amateur and professional. It also oversees the World Championships."

Paraphrasing President Truman, "the buck STOPS there..."
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