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Peter Sagan great or what?

Old 07-04-17, 06:15 AM
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kcblair
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Peter Sagan great or what?

Pops his foot out of cleat in middle of full sprint, and still wins. KB
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Old 07-04-17, 06:26 AM
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Not only is he a great cyclist, but he's been great for the sport in general. Love him
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Old 07-04-17, 07:00 AM
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What a win yesterday. Have anyone seen a guy win a sprint after unclipping ? Fantastic.

On that final little climb he was looking really good. Everyone was grimacing with their mouths open and he had his closed and was looking relaxed.

Would like to see his power data for this final climb.
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Old 07-04-17, 08:53 AM
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Peter Sagan is my favorite pro athlete of any sport.
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Old 07-04-17, 10:22 AM
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Today was an 'or what' day for Sagan.
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Old 07-04-17, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post
Today was an 'or what' day for Sagan.

Cavendish chose poorly.
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Old 07-04-17, 11:22 AM
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I'm still waiting for more information, but part of me says this was Cavendish's fault, the other part says, it's just racing.

The problem with the elbow argument is that we're seeing this in slow motion, so that has a way of exaggerating things and it doesn't seem like he directly threw his body and elbow into Cav.

Still reviewing though, just my first impression.
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Old 07-04-17, 11:55 AM
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Sagan messed with the wrong rider.
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Old 07-04-17, 11:58 AM
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Aggressive sprinting leads to crashing...the more you slow it down the more wish washy you can read it.

My initial read on seeing it live...relegate at a minimum, and presuming not DQ'd.
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Old 07-04-17, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Aggressive sprinting leads to crashing...the more you slow it down the more wish washy you can read it.

My initial read on seeing it live...relegate at a minimum, and presuming not DQ'd.
Sagan got DQ'ed, and deserved it.

This isn't about making anyone slow down. If they had all been riding 10% slower, the outcome would have been the same. Sagan is usually an excellent rider, decent guy, good sprinter. Today, and apparently yesterday, he made some choices that were unsafe for other riders.

I.e. This is about making sure Sagan learns the difference between a cycling sprint and a hockey match.
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Old 07-04-17, 02:22 PM
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Even in hockey, an elbow will get you DQ.
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Old 07-04-17, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
Sagan got DQ'ed, and deserved it.

This isn't about making anyone slow down. If they had all been riding 10% slower, the outcome would have been the same. Sagan is usually an excellent rider, decent guy, good sprinter. Today, and apparently yesterday, he made some choices that were unsafe for other riders.

I.e. This is about making sure Sagan learns the difference between a cycling sprint and a hockey match.
Don't get me wrong, that is my read too.

Thing being for just as certain as we are that Sagan was the aggressor acting outrageously....there's the other camp just as certain that Cav was the aggressor doing dumb things (passing inside along the barriers) that endangered himself and others (he leaned into Sagan, and Sagan's elbow was "balancing"-and his elbow didn't touch Cav when looked at in slo-mo).


Same coin, two sides. The Acquit Sagan camp also thinks that Demare was riding recklessly too and got off scot-free with the stage win too.
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Old 07-04-17, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Don't get me wrong, that is my read too.

Thing being for just as certain as we are that Sagan was the aggressor acting outrageously....there's the other camp just as certain that Cav was the aggressor doing dumb things (passing inside along the barriers) that endangered himself and others (he leaned into Sagan, and Sagan's elbow was "balancing"-and his elbow didn't touch Cav when looked at in slo-mo).

Same coin, two sides. The Acquit Sagan camp also thinks that Demare was riding recklessly too and got off scot-free with the stage win too.
I don't think Sagan deliberately tried to KO Cav. I think he was just trying to shut him out, and was too reckless. Apparently he acted similarly yesterday, cutting off Greipel iirc.

Demare clearly changed his line. However, he had plenty of room to do so, and didn't cause 3 riders to crash. I don't see that he did anything wrong, certainly nothing near forcing another rider into the barriers.
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Old 07-04-17, 03:36 PM
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Wow! DQ'd and sent home in utter disgrace, he should be ashamed of himself. So clearly a dirty and dangerous act against Cavendish, and caused multiple crashes and injuries.


And I'll save some apologists a bit of typing, we all know the other argument. It goes something like this: Hey, I didn't punch the other guy in the face- he pushed his face into my closed fist!
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Old 07-04-17, 05:55 PM
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It appears to me that Cav tried to fill a hole that wasn't there. It isn't clear whether the elbow hit him or not but again, as has been said, it is the intent that is most important relative to a penalty. I don't believe that Sagan has a previous history that would indicate that he would knowingly try to harm him whether an elbow to the body or crashing him into the barrier. At any rate, it just isn't clear enough to me to warrant throwing him out of the Tour. I would think that relegating him to the back for the stage would be the most that would have been handed out to him. All that said, I was pulling for Cav to win the stage. I really like Sagan as most do but I think it would have been amazing for Cav to get another stage win especially after being out and dealing with Epstein Barr virus.
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Old 07-04-17, 06:08 PM
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Some are coming to wrong conclusions. It is apparent that most journalists who have take the time to carefully look the footages from different angles, it was clear Sagan was only trying to remain balanced when Cavendish pushed into him, and hooking his elbow with his handlebar and bike. Sagan held his line behind Demare the entire time. Sagan did not push right purposefully into Cavendish, how could he? He never saw Cavendish, Cavendish was always behind him.

It's ludicrous to hold Sagan responsible for an idiot who habitually rides with his head down, doesn't look where he is going, and choosing to ride that close to the barriers during a physical sprint finish. The only person who should be held accountable for his stupid decisions and refusal to look where he is riding is Cavendish. This isn't the first time he's done this. Cavendish has done this during the Olympics on the track, causing an Olympian to crash, and he's done it multiple times on the road. I personally think Cavendish should be banned from UCI racing, he's done this far too many times. He proves every year, every tour, every Olympics, he's a dangerous rider who puts other cyclists career at risk for his refusal to look where he is going and barreling into other riders.

Let's be clear, this was not a shoving match between two sprinters next to each other. This is Cavendish coming from BEHIND Sagan and chose to crash into barriers rather than braking when it was clear there was no room to pass on the right. The way I see it, Sagan was the victim here. And Cavendish is the one who should be penalized for causing a crash that injured Degenkolb and others.

Last edited by zymphad; 07-04-17 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 07-04-17, 11:19 PM
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Unless there is more than what they are telling us, there seems to be enough reasonable doubt not to completely disqualify him but to dock him a load of points and relegate him to last for the day. Would like to know what a "jury" actually is and does during the TDF.

But I think if it had been a rider who we didn't hear much of, Sagan is still in the tour.
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Old 07-05-17, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
Unless there is more than what they are telling us, there seems to be enough reasonable doubt not to completely disqualify him but to dock him a load of points and relegate him to last for the day. Would like to know what a "jury" actually is and does during the TDF.

But I think if it had been a rider who we didn't hear much of, Sagan is still in the tour.
I think the exact opposite....the only reason Sagan was initially docked points and relegated was because he was basically always going to be the winner of the Green Jersey.
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Old 07-05-17, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
This is Cavendish coming from BEHIND Sagan
No he wasn't. You have to watch the 200 meters before the crash, not the two seconds before.
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Old 07-05-17, 05:16 AM
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As one of the commentators pointed out, it seems telling that the UCI rep, in announcing the jury's decision, made a point of mentioning that Sagan is the world champion. Had it been a lesser member of the peleton, would we be discussion a DQ or would we simply be dicussing Cavendish's injuries.
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Old 07-05-17, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
As one of the commentators pointed out, it seems telling that the UCI rep, in announcing the jury's decision, made a point of mentioning that Sagan is the world champion. Had it been a lesser member of the peleton, would we be discussion a DQ or would we simply be dicussing Cavendish's injuries.
Had it been a different member of the peloton...they'd have been DQ'd immediately....no confusion, no temporary relegation or points docking or time-penalty. Out.

Sagan being the world champion, I figured he'd get away with it. The people at the top live under different rules from everyone else.
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Old 07-05-17, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Let's be clear, this was not a shoving match between two sprinters next to each other. This is Cavendish coming from BEHIND Sagan and chose to crash into barriers rather than braking when it was clear there was no room to pass on the right. The way I see it, Sagan was the victim here. And Cavendish is the one who should be penalized for causing a crash that injured Degenkolb and others.


+1,
At first I thought Sagan elbowed a rider and should be disqualified. But then after reviewing the tape, I don't see how Cavendish ever thought he could fit between the barriers and Sagan. How would Sagan be aware of someone coming up behind him, between the barrier, during the heat of a hard sprint in the TDF? Furthermore Cavendish WAS ALREADY FALLING when the elbow was extended. Cavendish made a dangerous move, risking other riders including Sagan. He should have been punished but given his injuries, the point is mute. As for the disqualification of Sagan, that's a terrible decision. As I'm typing this, the TV just showed 86% of US viewers agree that Sagan should not have been disqualified.
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Old 07-05-17, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by roccobike View Post
+1,
At first I thought Sagan elbowed a rider and should be disqualified. But then after reviewing the tape, I don't see how Cavendish ever thought he could fit between the barriers and Sagan. How would Sagan be aware of someone coming up behind him, between the barrier, during the heat of a hard sprint in the TDF? Furthermore Cavendish WAS ALREADY FALLING when the elbow was extended. Cavendish made a dangerous move, risking other riders including Sagan. He should have been punished but given his injuries, the point is mute. As for the disqualification of Sagan, that's a terrible decision. As I'm typing this, the TV just showed 86% of US viewers agree that Sagan should not have been disqualified.
Yea...The one thing polls of Americans show-they'll believe anything. 50% of Americans think the Earth is only 6,000 years old and was cooked up in 7 days.
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Old 07-05-17, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Some are coming to wrong conclusions. It is apparent that most journalists who have take the time to carefully look the footages from different angles, it was clear Sagan was only trying to remain balanced when Cavendish pushed into him, and hooking his elbow with his handlebar and bike. Sagan held his line behind Demare the entire time. Sagan did not push right purposefully into Cavendish, how could he? He never saw Cavendish, Cavendish was always behind him.

It's ludicrous to hold Sagan responsible for an idiot who habitually rides with his head down, doesn't look where he is going, and choosing to ride that close to the barriers during a physical sprint finish. The only person who should be held accountable for his stupid decisions and refusal to look where he is riding is Cavendish. This isn't the first time he's done this. Cavendish has done this during the Olympics on the track, causing an Olympian to crash, and he's done it multiple times on the road. I personally think Cavendish should be banned from UCI racing, he's done this far too many times. He proves every year, every tour, every Olympics, he's a dangerous rider who puts other cyclists career at risk for his refusal to look where he is going and barreling into other riders.

Let's be clear, this was not a shoving match between two sprinters next to each other. This is Cavendish coming from BEHIND Sagan and chose to crash into barriers rather than braking when it was clear there was no room to pass on the right. The way I see it, Sagan was the victim here. And Cavendish is the one who should be penalized for causing a crash that injured Degenkolb and others.

I believe you nailed it. IMHO perhaps it could be argued Sagan deserved a penalty of some sorts, but a DQ for this is too steep a penalty where it was not clear Sagan deliberately tried to harm and where Cavendish at some culpability in this.
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Old 07-05-17, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
Sagan messed with the wrong rider.
LOL! Looks like Cav messed with the wrong rider to me...
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