Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

this is gonna get ugly

Old 07-04-17, 03:51 PM
  #101  
USAZorro
Señor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,285

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1203 Post(s)
Liked 563 Times in 373 Posts
Here's what's really going to be ugly. Watch ratings plummet worldwide for the rest of the Tour.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 03:53 PM
  #102  
Philly215
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
Yup. I watched the race, I watched the replays numerous times, including before posting.

In fact, if you watch Stage 3, you see Sagan do the same thing yesterday that Demare did today -- he swung over to his right, directly in front of Dan Martin. 1:39 on the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpThWGelq6o

Changing lines is fine. Shutting the door on a rider (like Sagan did to Cav) is fine. Slamming someone into the barriers is a bit more problematic.
Cav slammed himself into the barrier by being a dumbass. He bounced his head off Sagan and couldn't keep it upright. Sagan's elbow never touched him as seen by numerous shots and camera angles.
Philly215 is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 03:54 PM
  #103  
cthenn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 2,615

Bikes: 2015 Trek Emonda SLR, 2002 Litespeed Classic, 2005 Bianchi Pista, 2016 Devinci Hatchet, Some BikesDirect MTB I never ride.

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Liked 117 Times in 78 Posts
Plain English for old people:

Chris Horner:
Just saw the finish of today's @Letour stage. Totally disagree with the decision to DQ Sagan. Put @petosagan back in the race!

Jens Voigt:
Take your time and watch the replay in slowmotion. Then forget about Peter and Cav. Focus on Demarre. He is the first to change trajectoire

So in my private opinion-the disqualification is too much.I am ok with -80 points in green jersey,last place today and timepenalty for sagan

Michael Rassmussen
https://streamable.com/j7gqb Cavendish is trying to knock Sagan away with his head -and tumble. Way before he sticks out his elbow. #Bsalert #UCI

Baden Cooke
Sending Sagan home was a bad decision. It was unintentional. You often use your elbows to give yourself space to avoid crashing yourself.

Greg Lemond
Sagan's expulsion from Tour is harsh, says LeMond | Cycling Today

And finally, my whole argument over this entire affair
https://twitterDOTcom/Trudgin/status/88233382993509172

Total bull that Sagan is kicked out and absolutely nothing said about Demare. Can't get the Boardman video to link so if anyone actually wants to hear what he says, replace DOT with .
cthenn is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 03:55 PM
  #104  
Philly215
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Here's what's really going to be ugly. Watch ratings plummet worldwide for the rest of the Tour.
I've watched every stage so far and this leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I'm not even necessarily a fan of either one. I just bought Cav's book but I just like good riding and Cav was wrong here at worst. Sagan had nothing to do with him crashing other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I really despise the UCI and cycling leaders.
Philly215 is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 03:57 PM
  #105  
Lazyass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minas Ithil
Posts: 9,335
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2430 Post(s)
Liked 628 Times in 388 Posts
Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Here's what's really going to be ugly. Watch ratings plummet worldwide for the rest of the Tour.
I watch it mainly for the mountain stages. On days like today I don't hardly even watch until the last 10 miles or so. Unfortunately, there's not really any great climbers anymore. It was almost better watching in the doping era.

RIP Marco
Lazyass is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 03:57 PM
  #106  
Gallo
Senior Member
 
Gallo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 775

Bikes: 2003 Litespeed Vortex 2016 Intense Spider Factory Build2008 Wilier Motorolio Specialized Stumpjumper Hardtail 1986 Paramount 2014 Pivot Mach 429c

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 10 Posts
Sagan is one of my favorite riders. Not a guy that does not Cav either even as cheeky as he can be but a great rider nonetheless. There is always contact on a sprint as everyone follows the fastest wheel before the line and the launches. From what I saw it looked like Peter muscled his way and changed his line which put Mark on the tarmac.

I can say while disappointed because I like Sagan so much I think the DQ justified.

There was not much room there for Cav but that is not rare. Its a sprint and mayhem always ensues. He did however own that line and had nowhere else to go. Sagan positioned himself to win as well but by doing so endangers not just Cav but anyone behind him

With as fast as they are moving and well past the redline physically I am surprised this does not happen more often. It is a testimony to how good sprinters are as bike handlers.

I do not think it was premeditated but it happened.

And now we have a race for the Green Jersey on the TDF for the first time in many years. I as well as many others I am sure will miss not seeing him for the rest of this race
Gallo is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 03:59 PM
  #107  
Lazyass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minas Ithil
Posts: 9,335
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2430 Post(s)
Liked 628 Times in 388 Posts
Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
Total bull that Sagan is kicked out and absolutely nothing said about Demare. Can't get the Boardman video to link so if anyone actually wants to hear what he says, replace DOT with .
Demare and Sagan's punishment is a fair debate. But Sagan did what he did, man.
Lazyass is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 04:00 PM
  #108  
USAZorro
Señor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,285

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1203 Post(s)
Liked 563 Times in 373 Posts
Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
I've watched every stage so far and this leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I'm not even necessarily a fan of either one. I just bought Cav's book but I just like good riding and Cav was wrong here at worst. Sagan had nothing to do with him crashing other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I really despise the UCI and cycling leaders.
Sagan and Cavendish are my two favorite sprinters. Have great respect for them both, and with both of them out, I may watch a couple of Mountain stages, but nothing else. So glad I didn't shell out for the race package.

While I also have issues with the UCI, today's decision was rendered by the officials of ASO.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 04:05 PM
  #109  
gaucho777 
Senior Member
 
gaucho777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 7,231

Bikes: '72 Cilo Pacer, '72 Gitane Gran Tourisme, '72 Peugeot PX10, '73 Speedwell Ti, '74 Peugeot UE-8, '75 Peugeot PR-10L, '80 Colnago Super, '85 De Rosa Pro, '86 Look Equipe 753, '86 Look KG86, '89 Parkpre Team, '90 Parkpre Team MTB, '90 Merlin

Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 736 Post(s)
Liked 1,495 Times in 427 Posts
I see it the same as @cthenn. Terrible decision by the Tour. Elbow came out because Cav initiated contact with Sagan, first with Cav's head on Sagan's side (obviously Cav was slightly behind Sagan at this point) and then it looks like Cav catches the inside of Sagan's elbow as he goes down which gives the false appearance Sagan threw an elbow.
gaucho777 is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 04:06 PM
  #110  
USAZorro
Señor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,285

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1203 Post(s)
Liked 563 Times in 373 Posts
Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
I watch it mainly for the mountain stages. On days like today I don't hardly even watch until the last 10 miles or so. Unfortunately, there's not really any great climbers anymore. It was almost better watching in the doping era.

RIP Marco
If it's a SKY train again this year, I will just chuck the remote and hope for better next year.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 04:22 PM
  #111  
Lazyass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minas Ithil
Posts: 9,335
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2430 Post(s)
Liked 628 Times in 388 Posts
Cav is out with a broken scapula.
Lazyass is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 04:47 PM
  #112  
badger1
Senior Member
 
badger1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 4,685
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1301 Post(s)
Liked 672 Times in 366 Posts
Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
I watch it mainly for the mountain stages. On days like today I don't hardly even watch until the last 10 miles or so. Unfortunately, there's not really any great climbers anymore. It was almost better watching in the doping era.

RIP Marco
Pretty much agree. I've followed pro cycling, closely, since my mid-teens in the late '60s, and being an academic sort am an amateur devotee of its history, including that of the Tour.

The past few years in this particular race have been beyond dull. It's all a bit sad.

Back on the present topic, Sagan, like Contador, can at least animate a race/a stage and is willing to do so. He's out. Contador appears to be struggling; we shall see. I predict, however, another excruciatingly dull Sky procession to Paris from here on in.

As to RIP Marco, +1000.
badger1 is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 04:48 PM
  #113  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,429

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1810 Post(s)
Liked 1,944 Times in 1,192 Posts
The debate over the Sagan DQ won't be resolved, but it is a sad commentary that he is one of the few bright spots because modern racing is so mechanized and planned out. Gone are the days when GC leaders took real risks that led to real excitement. Except for a few stages, the only excitement is found in the sprints and breakaways usually by stage win hopeful domestiques. Everything is so choreographed by team management and every rider just steps into his role.

And if Froome does not get injured, the tour will just roll along with virtually no threat to the eventual winner.

John
70sSanO is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 04:49 PM
  #114  
badger1
Senior Member
 
badger1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 4,685
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1301 Post(s)
Liked 672 Times in 366 Posts
Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
If it's a SKY train again this year, I will just chuck the remote and hope for better next year.
Yep.
badger1 is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 05:06 PM
  #115  
Lazyass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minas Ithil
Posts: 9,335
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2430 Post(s)
Liked 628 Times in 388 Posts
When Quintana came on the scene I had hopes he would be the next great climber and have some good battles with Froome. But I don't think he's ever going to take it to the next level.
Lazyass is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 05:09 PM
  #116  
195cranky
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
During the TV coverage with no dvr recording saw in the numerous video repeats from the front camera view that Cav's left brake hood contacted and slid up Sagan's inside forearm and as Cav was starting to fall to the right the pull on Sagan's forearm by the brake hood caused Sagan's elbow to come up and out. Watch it close and you will see the same.

Don't know how the jury could miss that. They were distracted by all the other conspiracy theories floating and looked at the elbow as the cause but not the effect. Cav tried to squeeze thru, brake hood hits Sagan's arm, Sagan under sprint load feels it and moves his elbow up and out. That all there is there. How can other's not see that??
195cranky is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 05:17 PM
  #117  
Lazyass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minas Ithil
Posts: 9,335
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2430 Post(s)
Liked 628 Times in 388 Posts
Originally Posted by 195cranky View Post
During the TV coverage with no dvr recording saw in the numerous video repeats from the front camera view that Cav's left brake hood contacted and slid up Sagan's inside forearm and as Cav was starting to fall to the right the pull on Sagan's forearm by the brake hood caused Sagan's elbow to come up and out. Watch it close and you will see the same.

Don't know how the jury could miss that. They were distracted by all the other conspiracy theories floating and looked at the elbow as the cause but not the effect. Cav tried to squeeze thru, brake hood hits Sagan's arm, Sagan under sprint load feels it and moves his elbow up and out. That all there is there. How can other's not see that??
There was absolutely no reason for Sagan to be that close to Cav. He followed him all the way to the right and into the wall. Cav didn't try to "squeeze" through anything, it was his line and he had nowhere else to go. Brake hood, elbow, leg or whatever it is that made him go down (Cav says he was elbowed) doesn't even really matter. It's against UCI rules to take someone's line like that.
Lazyass is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:23 PM
  #118  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1187 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
Greipel is one person, not a "consensus among actual racers and those involved". People can debate the punishment, but Sagan is guilty.

I also posted a video. Here it is again since you missed it. Start at 7:00, watch them next to each other in the middle of the road (no, Cav was not "behind"), then watch as Cav veers to the right to get open and Sagan follows him all the way to the wall. Yes, I know you won't admit you're wrong, but you are.


https://youtu.be/y9tphVXAOec
Sorry to correct you but Greipel is technically a gorilla which are known to be unreliable in such matters.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:26 PM
  #119  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1187 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by 195cranky View Post
During the TV coverage with no dvr recording saw in the numerous video repeats from the front camera view that Cav's left brake hood contacted and slid up Sagan's inside forearm and as Cav was starting to fall to the right the pull on Sagan's forearm by the brake hood caused Sagan's elbow to come up and out. Watch it close and you will see the same.

Don't know how the jury could miss that. They were distracted by all the other conspiracy theories floating and looked at the elbow as the cause but not the effect. Cav tried to squeeze thru, brake hood hits Sagan's arm, Sagan under sprint load feels it and moves his elbow up and out. That all there is there. How can other's not see that??
Yeah but, did you see Cav adjusting Sagan's rear derailleur when he was trying to be mercury and ride thru Segan's legs? Maybe the officials are going easy on Cav because even though adjusting a derailleur on a competitor's bike while racing isn't permitted, likely Cav's racing is all done this tour. The other theory is...Cav came up from behind and tried to wedge his head under Sagan's arm pit so Sagan would drag him across the finish line in a tie.

Last edited by Campag4life; 07-04-17 at 06:29 PM.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:29 PM
  #120  
zymphad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,575

Bikes: Super Cheap gc3 approved Bike

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by keg61 View Post
Somebody has to start the Cav vs Sagan argument, it might as well be me.... it's been 30 years since I did any racing and yes I "only watch it on tv a few days a year" but it seemed pretty clear to me that there was not room for Cavendish to try to pass between Sagan and the barrier, he asked for trouble and got what he asked for
Agreed
zymphad is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:32 PM
  #121  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1187 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Agreed
And you would be wrong. When Cav came up behind and to the right of Sagan, you could drive a truck through the hole between Sagan and the fence. Sagan shut the door on Cav and put him into the fence. Further Sagan had plenty of room on his left hand side to hold his line but he didn't. He came over on Cav and was put out of the tour for his poor judgement and/or sportsmanship.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:32 PM
  #122  
zymphad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,575

Bikes: Super Cheap gc3 approved Bike

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
There was absolutely no reason for Sagan to be that close to Cav. He followed him all the way to the right and into the wall. Cav didn't try to "squeeze" through anything, it was his line and he had nowhere else to go. Brake hood, elbow, leg or whatever it is that made him go down (Cav says he was elbowed) doesn't even really matter. It's against UCI rules to take someone's line like that.
No it was not his line. Cavendish was behind 100% of the time. At no point ever, was Cavendish ahead of Sagan. You are completely wrong on this. Every footage, every angle shows Cavendish was behind Sagan the entire time. Why should any rider or for that matter, any competitor in any type of race be responsible for a moron who is BEHIND them. If racers ahead of you move right, you don't just keep moving right and crash into them, it's on the person who is BEHIND to adjust their line. People in front should NEVER be held accountable for a moron like Cavendish does behind them.

The entire sprint group moved right. Demare moved right. Sagan was on Demare's wheel the entire time. Cavendish was behind the sprint group, never mind Sagan, he was behind everyone and he saw what they were doing and yet he chose to ride into barriers. Why? Cause he's an idiot? Probably.

Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
And you would be wrong. When Cav came up behind and to the right of Sagan, you could drive a truck through the hole between Sagan and the fence. Sagan shut the door on Cav and put him into the fence. Further Sagan had plenty of room on his left hand side to hold his line but he didn't. He came over on Cav and was put out of the tour for his poor judgement and/or sportsmanship.
You would be wrong. Then it's on Cavendish for choosing to lean into Sagan rather than passing through a space in which a "truck" could get through. I see no evidence that Sagan pushed into Cavendish. When Cavendish began to fall, you can clearly see Cavendish was trying to ride through Sagan. Seems clear to me, Cavendish believes he can ride through solid objects.

Last edited by zymphad; 07-04-17 at 06:36 PM.
zymphad is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:39 PM
  #123  
europa
Grumpy Old Bugga
 
europa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 4,229

Bikes: Hillbrick, Malvern Star Oppy S2, Europa (R.I.P.)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Cavendish has a long track record of aggressive riding, bordering on the reckless. This is another example of how he earned that reputation by trying to force his way into a gap that wasn't there. Sagan should be pinged for that elbow but it didn't take Cavendish down. It's just a racing incident between two aggressive sprinters and it's a crying shame that both are now out of the tour.
europa is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:44 PM
  #124  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1187 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by europa View Post
Cavendish has a long track record of aggressive riding, bordering on the reckless. This is another example of how he earned that reputation by trying to force his way into a gap that wasn't there. Sagan should be pinged for that elbow but it didn't take Cavendish down. It's just a racing incident between two aggressive sprinters and it's a crying shame that both are now out of the tour.
True he does. But the gap was there. Another theory is, Sagan made a hard move to the right so he could be closer to the fence to high five his fans. I believe Sagan gave Cav the elbow because he was afraid Cav was going to bite his ear.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 07-04-17, 06:47 PM
  #125  
europa
Grumpy Old Bugga
 
europa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 4,229

Bikes: Hillbrick, Malvern Star Oppy S2, Europa (R.I.P.)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 370 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I believe Sagan gave Cav the elbow because he was afraid Cav was going to bite his ear.
Hmm, the Mike Tyson gambit. I didn't see that one coming
europa is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.