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this is gonna get ugly

Old 07-04-17, 06:53 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
You would be wrong. Then it's on Cavendish for choosing to lean into Sagan rather than passing through a space in which a "truck" could get through. I see no evidence that Sagan pushed into Cavendish. When Cavendish began to fall, you can clearly see Cavendish was trying to ride through Sagan. Seems clear to me, Cavendish believes he can ride through solid objects.
Truthfully, they are both at fault. Sagan clearly blocked Cav. Where Cav f-ed up was when blocked, he tried to make a hole that didn't exist. A massive hole was there and in an instant the hole was gone because Sagan plugged it with intention to keep Cav from coming through. Sagan is the master bike handler. Not only the heavier and bigger guy but nobody better at body control and Cav paid the price. You don't push on Superman's cape even though Cav can fit through openings others can't. Keep in mind Cav is only a child and rides a toddler's bike...almost unfair anyway because he can ride through other's wheels to get to an opening unless rebuffed like a fly.

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Old 07-04-17, 06:54 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Hmm, the Mike Tyson gambit. I didn't see that one coming
Either did Holyfield but Sagan saw the fight and it honestly made him flinch and cost Cav the tour.
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Old 07-04-17, 07:55 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
Cav slammed himself into the barrier by being a dumbass. He bounced his head off Sagan and couldn't keep it upright. Sagan's elbow never touched him as seen by numerous shots and camera angles.
Cav may be a lot of things, including excessively aggressive. I'm not a fan of his.

That said, Cav is an experienced sprinter, one of the best in the business, and he isn't going to run up the outside if there isn't space. He had more than enough room to get around Sagan, he had a clear line, and he stuck to it. Sagan did not hold his line, flicked his elbow at Cav, and pushed him into the barriers.

That wasn't the first time during this tour, either; he threw an elbow at Greipel yesterday as well.

Also, read what the pros and ex-pros are saying. Most of them recognize that Sagan is at fault, and think he should be disciplined -- DQ'd on the stage, lose points, lose time etc. Their objection is to the extremity of the punishment.
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Old 07-04-17, 08:10 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
Plain English for old people
Uh huh

Again, Tweets are a whopping 140 characters. That's an expression of an opinion, not an argument.

Meanwhile, many of the pros and ex-pros -- Lemond, Voight, Greipel, McEwen, Millar -- say that Sagan was in the wrong. What they object to is the extremity of the punishment.

That said, I must give you props for pointing directly to experts whose claims undercut your own position.
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Old 07-04-17, 08:49 PM
  #130  
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wow. where the hell are all you people the rest of the year? definitely not in the professional cycling forum. dunno if you're just lurking
the rest of the year and feel compelled to come out from under your collective rocks every july or what? there's more to life/racing than the tour.
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Old 07-04-17, 09:10 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
Cav may be a lot of things, including excessively aggressive. I'm not a fan of his.

That said, Cav is an experienced sprinter, one of the best in the business, and he isn't going to run up the outside if there isn't space.
Actually, I AM a Cav fan but I'll also admit he'll dive into a gap that doesn't exist and try to force it open.

He's a damned good sprinter but he's also a loose cannon which I guess is one of the things I like about him. My lbs is owned by someone who used to race against him (pre pro tour days) and he was no different then, I'm looking forward to going in there later today and discussing this latest incident.
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Old 07-04-17, 09:31 PM
  #132  
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Amateur (yet not without a certain sophistication) point of view: Sagan didn't have rights to that line, he bumped the innocent and handsome and struggling underdog Cav -

Sagan should have gotten DQ'd. That fact that he waited until he was under that tree to give him the elbow in the throat makes all the more obvious it was a planned maneuver.
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Old 07-04-17, 09:52 PM
  #133  
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https://www.google.com/amp/www.velon...dsq_442744/amp
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Old 07-04-17, 09:54 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by keg61 View Post
Somebody has to start the Cav vs Sagan argument, it might as well be me.... it's been 30 years since I did any racing and yes I "only watch it on tv a few days a year" but it seemed pretty clear to me that there was not room for Cavendish to try to pass between Sagan and the barrier, he asked for trouble and got what he asked for
Ya i saw sagan elbow cav and im wondering why the announcers didnt call it out, it was pretty obvious
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Old 07-04-17, 10:02 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
Cav may be a lot of things, including excessively aggressive. I'm not a fan of his.

That said, Cav is an experienced sprinter, one of the best in the business, and he isn't going to run up the outside if there isn't space. He had more than enough room to get around Sagan, he had a clear line, and he stuck to it. Sagan did not hold his line, flicked his elbow at Cav, and pushed him into the barriers.

That wasn't the first time during this tour, either; he threw an elbow at Greipel yesterday as well.

Also, read what the pros and ex-pros are saying. Most of them recognize that Sagan is at fault, and think he should be disciplined -- DQ'd on the stage, lose points, lose time etc. Their objection is to the extremity of the punishment.
Watch the video. Cavendish was already crashed when the elbow came out. It's a quick chain of events but it's clear the elbow was reactionary to Sagan getting thrown off balance from Cav running in to him. It's ridiculous, especially when everyone was shifting right due to careless riding from another and that's not even being talked about. Cav must still be laughing about this. Getting someone thrown out due to his recklessness. I'm guessing a lot of guys in the peloton aren't going to be happy with him though.
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Old 07-04-17, 10:06 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Amateur (yet not without a certain sophistication) point of view: Sagan didn't have rights to that line, he bumped the innocent and handsome and struggling underdog Cav -

Sagan should have gotten DQ'd. That fact that he waited until he was under that tree to give him the elbow in the throat makes all the more obvious it was a planned maneuver.
That's a pretty definitive analysis. I don't see how anyone could argue against it.
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Old 07-04-17, 10:10 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
Watch the video. Cavendish was already crashed when the elbow came out.
Only if you watch from the front. If you watch the helicopter video it's equally obvious that the elbow is what knocked Cav down.

Personally, I think there was a second elbower on the grassy knoll.
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Old 07-04-17, 10:30 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Yeah. Cav is used to getting his way for sure. Suffice to say because Sagan is such a star, if this wasn't beyond a shadow of a doubt, they wouldn't have put the biggest star in cycling out of the biggest race of the year.


An update on Sagan's reaction hours after the race. Sagan stated that he didn't see or hear Cav coming up on him. Instead he felt what he thought was a mosquito landing on his arm and all he did was to try and flick him off.


Further, Sagan went on to say that Cav really didn't belong on the tour because his bike is so small that Cav can cut between the wheels of bigger bikes like riding under a semi which he feels is an unfair advantage. He went on to say that Cav would clean up however on the tour for children on tot bikes.
Cav got the ugly end of what he has done many times to others.

IMO, "that's racing".

I don't think Sagan did anything outrageous.
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Old 07-04-17, 11:33 PM
  #139  
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for sagan to get dq'd for questionable activity but demare to go unsanctioned for his little whoopsiedoodle
right in front of bouhanni (resulting in bouhanni to pause and stop pedaling during the sprint) is the height of
hypocrisy. it's not like the judges didn't review the tape umpteen times and no one (?!?!) said anything about demare?
kristof probably shoulda been awarded the stage. a mess to be sure but throwing sagan from the race was the wrong call. i suppose we'll all forget/stop arguing about this stage soon enough. if history repeats itself, something tells me there will be a ridiculous incident with a motorbike just around the bend...
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Old 07-04-17, 11:45 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Cav got the ugly end of what he has done many times to others.

IMO, "that's racing".

I don't think Sagan did anything outrageous.
Yes, to each of these sentences.
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Old 07-05-17, 01:03 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Only if you watch from the front. If you watch the helicopter video it's equally obvious that the elbow is what knocked Cav down.

Personally, I think there was a second elbower on the grassy knoll.
Yeah, I think this is what did him in, the commissionaires got hold of the heli footage and said hang on a minute:

Tour de France: Sagan sparks Cavendish crash during Vittel sprint | Cyclingnews.com
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Old 07-05-17, 01:12 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Yeah, I think this is what did him in, the commissionaires got hold of the heli footage and said hang on a minute:

Tour de France: Sagan sparks Cavendish crash during Vittel sprint | Cyclingnews.com
Well, we now know who's side Cyclingnews is on don't we.
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Old 07-05-17, 01:38 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Well, we now know who's side Cyclingnews is on don't we.
I didn't read much of the article, but it did have a video of the overhead view.
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Old 07-05-17, 02:09 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
I didn't read much of the article, but it did have a video of the overhead view.
The head on and the overhead views both confuse the issue more than solve it. One view leads to one view, the other leads to another. I'm tending to believe that there'd be less controversy if Sagan hadn't been disqualified.
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Old 07-05-17, 05:03 AM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Actually, I AM a Cav fan but I'll also admit he'll dive into a gap that doesn't exist and try to force it open.

He's a damned good sprinter but he's also a loose cannon which I guess is one of the things I like about him. My lbs is owned by someone who used to race against him (pre pro tour days) and he was no different then, I'm looking forward to going in there later today and discussing this latest incident.
The story line of what fuels Cav's loose cannon style of riding is a bit more insidious. Cav has been in a lot of therapy because its common knowledge he takes unnecessary chances. And because of his size, he sometimes can do the impossible and is rewarded by slipping through small openings that other riders can't fit through. So what appears to be reckless style of riding by common riders can be rewarded.


The basis however of what fuels his road rage and compulsion to win...at its essence revealed through hours of therapy is...Cav has a pretty significant case of 'short man's disease'. This of course starts at the school yard when fellow school mates picked on him for being small and of course he learned he could get away by hopping on his bike and they couldn't catch him. Cav has admitted that his rage is fueled even in latter life when he is offered the kiddy meal at McDonalds. So, a bit more insight into the micro missile and what makes him tick.

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Old 07-05-17, 05:15 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by ooga-booga View Post
for sagan to get dq'd for questionable activity but demare to go unsanctioned for his little whoopsiedoodle
right in front of bouhanni (resulting in bouhanni to pause and stop pedaling during the sprint) is the height of
hypocrisy. it's not like the judges didn't review the tape umpteen times and no one (?!?!) said anything about demare?
kristof probably shoulda been awarded the stage. a mess to be sure but throwing sagan from the race was the wrong call. i suppose we'll all forget/stop arguing about this stage soon enough. if history repeats itself, something tells me there will be a ridiculous incident with a motorbike just around the bend...
Many agree with you. As to the motorbike incident, yes, history has an uncanny way of repeating itself because biology and will to dominate and win trumps data of lessons learned.


To me, the core of this issue is 'why did Sagan move over and not hold his line?' He was wide open on the left.
Maybe...and perhaps your point, he moved hard to the right just when Cav was coming up on Sagan's right...because strategically in front of Sagan, this was Sagan's best path to victory in the sprint...where he went.


By repeated angle shots and video, this 'has to be determined' before he is thrown out of the race. If...again...if, there was NO reason for Sagan to move right strategically to get to better position for path to win the race....then the only reason Sagan didn't HOLD his line, was to block Cav which happens everyday in auto racing for example. When a top rider changes his line in a crowded sprint, they know the risk and have 360 degree situational awareness.


My belief is Sagan moved over to block Cav and Cav wasn't deterred and kept coming as he has so many times in the past...squeezing through. Not this time. So when bumped by Cav used his balance and size to stay upright which put the smaller rider into the fence. Now...maybe...this would have to be confirmed....Sagan changed lines abruptly because he was focused forward and to the right was his best path to win the race. This question IMO is the crux of whether Sagan should be disqualified. Sagan moved hard to the right in the sprint. He did not hold his line and the question is intent...to get to a better path to win the race...or....to block Cav and put the peloton at risk. Officials saw it as the latter.

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Old 07-05-17, 05:19 AM
  #147  
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Sagan was trying to follow Demare (?) which is why he went right. You might also mention that Cav was leaning on Sagan before the elbow (head onto his back).
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Old 07-05-17, 05:26 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Sagan was trying to follow Demare (?) which is why he went right. You might also mention that Cav was leaning on Sagan before the elbow (head onto his back).
If you believe that Sagan didn't know that Cav was coming up and moved over with deliberation to block him which had an associated risk....so that Sagan could follow Demare, then you are right, Sagan didn't deserve to get kicked out of the race. That is the crux of the decision...why Sagan moved right. According to you, you believe Sagan was a victim. I will tell you, officials don't take kicking out the no. 1 star in cycling out of the biggest race of the year lightly. So there has to be some level of benefit of the doubt. They saw this as egregious and blatant or Sagan wouldn't be gone.


The only way that Sagan could get kicked out of the TdF was....a decision was made regarding his intention. That he didn't move right to follow Demare...but rather moved right to block Cav from passing him. Sagan moved hard right for a reason and the question is why.

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Old 07-05-17, 05:35 AM
  #149  
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Okay sunshine, you've started attacking me rather than the subject. [\discussion]
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Old 07-05-17, 05:48 AM
  #150  
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Should Peter Sagan have been disqualified from the Tour de France? Hell, no? | Cyclingnews.com

"Really, whether you're a fan of the zany Slovakian or not, his expulsion leaves a gaping hole in this year's race a gap that even Mark Cavendish could fit through."

Lolol. It'd be funny if it wasn't so messed up.
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