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this is gonna get ugly

Old 07-05-17, 06:08 AM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Okay sunshine, you've started attacking me rather than the subject. [\discussion]
You can't be possibly addressing me, but since I am the only one here at the moment...
Attacking? What? I am simple painting the argument for both sides. Perhaps you don't like your viewpoint challenged which didn't agree with race officials. Officials at the race ruled based upon Sagan's intention. They deemed that Sagan put Cav and the peloton at risk by how he rode his bike.
If a guy is coming up hard on your right, even if you want the spot you didn't already occupy which is to the right to follow the rider in front of you, you know you are going to cut somebody off and put that rider at risk. That is what Sagan did. Even if he wanted to go right, he knew Cav was there and he was going to cut him off. Some may call this simply racing and I believe that is a fair argument btw. After all Cav, wanted to win and saw the hole and believed he could get through until Sagan closed the hole and he had no where to go.
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Old 07-05-17, 06:12 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
Should Peter Sagan have been disqualified from the Tour de France? Hell, no? | Cyclingnews.com

"Really, whether you're a fan of the zany Slovakian or not, his expulsion leaves a gaping hole in this year's race – a gap that even Mark Cavendish could fit through."

Lolol. It'd be funny if it wasn't so messed up.
I believe all agree its really messed up to have two stars of cycling out of the biggest race of the year.
Pretty clear that race officials don't want to turn the tour into Nascar...even at the risk of putting out their star rider.
But hey, we still have Froome with his metronome like consistency who never throws elbows common to sprinters because he can't sprint like they can.
Chemistry. When you get two guys like Sagan and Cav trying to occupy the same spot, likely Vegas money is going to be on Sagan as he proved. Bike handling genius trumps slippery little guy every time. Down goes Frasier.

PS: as a comedic sidebar, I believe Cav has Sagan beat by a long shot....maybe you guys have noticed...on how many times in his career Cav has hit the deck versus Sagan. My personal belief is...its for a reason. Careful when you play with sharks.

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Old 07-05-17, 06:19 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
Penalty is BS. It's 100% Cavendish's fault for forcing himself in to a spot that didn't exist. What was Sagan supposed to do, stop and move over? F that.
Looked to me that Sagan went out of his way to cut off his line.
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Old 07-05-17, 06:22 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by Tombaatar View Post
Looked to me that Sagan went out of his way to cut off his line.
Bottom line...and how the race officials saw it...versus Sagan's intention to follow Demare.
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Old 07-05-17, 06:45 AM
  #155  
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I think it's pretty clear that the elbow didn't cause the crash, and after watching the video several times, I don't think Sagan even "threw" an elbow at all. It looks like Cavendish's brake hood hooked Sagan's forearm and that's what caused his elbow to come out. It appears that you can even see the moment the hood releases and his elbow pops back in. So I wouldn't even consider the elbow movement to be an indication of aggression.

Sagan's line change, on the other hand, was questionable, but I still wouldn't have kicked him out because of it. Should have been penalized and allowed to continue.
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Old 07-05-17, 06:58 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by Tombaatar View Post
Looked to me that Sagan went out of his way to cut off his line.
Well you are ignoring Demare then who wildly changed lines. Cav and Sagan both changed their lines as a result. If you are going to penalize Sagan for changing lines then you have to penalize Demare definitely and Cav maybe.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:05 AM
  #157  
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I don't have a dog in the fight. After looking at both camera angles this is what I see. In the overhead shot it doesn't appear that Sagan has made a decision on which path to take. He is still looking at his options as Demare goes. Cav commits to following Demare on the outside and accelerates into that lane. Sagan is still waiting for things to open up. As Cav comes up on the right, Sagan is still not full throttle. Sagan veers right for some unknown reason. Maybe he finally commits/decides on a path. He is still not full throttle. It looks like he has a slight hesitation about a second before the crash. It looks like a brief letup. Then he veers more right and the crash occurs. The first time I saw the overhead angle I thought Sagan decided he was beat when Demare took off. Then he changed his mind at the last minute and the crash occurred. As others have said, the intent is the main issue here. Only Sagan knows that, but a ruling was made.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:07 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post
I think it's pretty clear that the elbow didn't cause the crash, and after watching the video several times, I don't think Sagan even "threw" an elbow at all. It looks like Cavendish's brake hood hooked Sagan's forearm and that's what caused his elbow to come out. It appears that you can even see the moment the hood releases and his elbow pops back in. So I wouldn't even consider the elbow movement to be an indication of aggression.

Sagan's line change, on the other hand, was questionable, but I still wouldn't have kicked him out because of it. Should have been penalized and allowed to continue.
Cav himself called out the elbow. Now maybe Cav couldn't determine 'why' the elbow came out which reduced the hole he could ride through. But when interviewed after the crash Cav said he wanted to speak to Peter again about the elbow. You would think that Cav would know whether his brake hood hooked Sagan's forearm causing his elbow to splay out. Cav was there. It was his bike.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:10 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
Well you are ignoring Demare then who wildly changed lines. Cav and Sagan both changed their lines as a result. If you are going to penalize Sagan for changing lines then you have to penalize Demare definitely and Cav maybe.
That point has been made before. But, the question has to be asked, when Demare changed his line, did his change in line put anybody at risk? I believe the answer is no. This was not the case with Sagan...even if he followed Demare's change in course which he did. Anybody can change line in a sprint provided they don't put others at risk. A judgement call and in this case ruled against Sagan.
Let's say Sagan both wanted to to follow Demare's line...which he did and close the hole for the hard charging Cav to ride through. He accomplished both ends...but the latter was deemed to put Cav in great harm which it did.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:18 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
You post a single picture that somehow validates your position, then I state a fact that is backed up by the race footage. So yeah, I'm right. Consensus among the actual racers and those involved? You got names?
Greipel himself who was the harshest critic came out after the race saying he saw the replays and believed it was the wrong judgement.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:20 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
I don't have a dog in the fight. After looking at both camera angles this is what I see. In the overhead shot it doesn't appear that Sagan has made a decision on which path to take. He is still looking at his options as Demare goes. Cav commits to following Demare on the outside and accelerates into that lane. Sagan is still waiting for things to open up. As Cav comes up on the right, Sagan is still not full throttle. Sagan veers right for some unknown reason. Maybe he finally commits/decides on a path. He is still not full throttle. It looks like he has a slight hesitation about a second before the crash. It looks like a brief letup. Then he veers more right and the crash occurs. The first time I saw the overhead angle I thought Sagan decided he was beat when Demare took off. Then he changed his mind at the last minute and the crash occurred. As others have said, the intent is the main issue here. Only Sagan knows that, but a ruling was made.
I believe you articulated Sagan's intent well. Based upon what you wrote, Sagan thought he was beat by the hard charging Cav because unlike Cav, Sagan wasn't fully spooled up as you say. He moved over to stop Cav however Cav had other ideas and wanted to motor through to follow Demare. Will meet intention. The smaller man lost and the bigger guy who body checked him was kicked out of the race.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:21 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
That point has been made before. But, the question has to be asked, when Demare changed his line, did his change in line put anybody at risk? I believe the answer is no. This was not the case with Sagan...even if he followed Demare's change in course which he did. Anybody can change line in a sprint provided they don't put others at risk. A judgement call and in this case ruled against Sagan.
Let's say Sagan both wanted to to follow Demare's line...which he did and close the hole for the hard charging Cav to ride through. He accomplished both ends...but the latter was deemed to put Cav in great harm which it did.
Yes, his change of line did put the Cofidis rider in danger and if it were not for the Cofidis rider taking measures to prevent an accident, they would have crashed. Notice in this video (look at time of 2:50 - 3:00-minute points. Notice how the Cofidis rider stopped pedalling and swerved to miss and fell back all because Demare cut him off.


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Old 07-05-17, 07:26 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by MZilliox View Post
Greipel himself who was the harshest critic came out after the race saying he saw the replays and believed it was the wrong judgement.
Christian who does the commentating for SNNBC said the same thing. Sagan shouldn't have been kicked out of the race. So there is intention and there is judgment regarding Sagan's intention. Sagan didn't want to let Cav through and pass him. You may not believe this warrants kicking him out of the race and I agree, a very tough call. I believe to transcends Sagan really. It is setting the table for what is acceptable in racing. Not to overstate it, but Cav could have been crippled by this.
Truth is...bike racing is a blood sport and in part why we watch. These guys are not only far more skilled than average riders but much braver in terms of taking chances.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:31 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Cav himself called out the elbow. Now maybe Cav couldn't determine 'why' the elbow came out which reduced the hole he could ride through. But when interviewed after the crash Cav said he wanted to speak to Peter again about the elbow. You would think that Cav would know whether his brake hood hooked Sagan's forearm causing his elbow to splay out. Cav was there. It was his bike.
Well maybe he has incentive to not be honest? Who would have thunk it? The elbow didn't come out until after he crashed so how could he even claim that? That right there is good reason that he's confused.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:36 AM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
Haha ok ask Bouhanni about "clear space".
Yes he really made a serious move to avoid contact. Letting DeMare go without penalty when Sagan is DQ isn't right. If Sagan got DQ'd for his actions, DeMare should have at least been relegated to last. DeMare getting no penalty when Sagan gets DQ'd from the tour is a joke. If they hold the same standard to all sprinters in the future as Sagan in this sprint, there will be many future DQs or penalties. They won't.

I suspect Cav has ridden his last tour. His dream of having the most TDF wins is likely over.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:39 AM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Yes, his change of line did put the Cofidis rider in danger and if it were not for the Cofidis rider taking measures to prevent an accident, they would have crashed. Notice in this video (look at time of 2:50 - 3:00-minute points. Notice how the Cofidis rider stopped pedalling and swerved to miss and fell back all because Demare cut him off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmozSZjbRYk
I just found this article on the Cofidis cyclist that was cut off from Demare's very erratic and unsafe lane change

Bouhanni: Demare cut me up in Tour de France sprint | Cyclingnews.com

Demare's move was much more dangerous, so why wasn't he relegated?

“It was a nervous sprint. I was in the ideal position in the final kilometres and I knew the finish by heart. But at 150 metres from the line, as I was on the wheel of Alexander Kristoff, Arnaud Démare cut me up and I touched his back wheel,” explained Bouhanni.

“At that moment it was over. If I didn’t brake, I’d have fallen.”
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Old 07-05-17, 07:44 AM
  #167  
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This video shows the crash pretty well. Sagan's arm getting hooked might have even been what caused the crash.


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Old 07-05-17, 07:48 AM
  #168  
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I don't think the elbow is even an issue. The issue is a rider had a squirrel moment and caused a crash. I don't even think it was intentional. He just happened to be the beefier guy. If the winner was zigging and zagging on his way to the win, then he needs to be penalized as well.

Edit: Looking at the overhead video again, it appears there are 2 squirrels in that sprint. One gets the win and the other gets DQed!

Last edited by seypat; 07-05-17 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:55 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Yes, his change of line did put the Cofidis rider in danger and if it were not for the Cofidis rider taking measures to prevent an accident, they would have crashed. Notice in this video (look at time of 2:50 - 3:00-minute points. Notice how the Cofidis rider stopped pedalling and swerved to miss and fell back all because Demare cut him off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmozSZjbRYk
So it comes down to level of intent. How egregious basically. Officials didn't see Demare's intent as egregious. Nor do I.


But you brought up a good point about taking two to tango. You mentioned...notice how the Cofidis rider backed off when he was cut off by Demare. What did Cav do? He didn't back off. That is what Sagan was trying to get Cav to do...cut him off to back him off...likely not want to hurt him but that is what happened.


Relatedly, love or hate Lance, his perspective is quite interesting. I think he falls in the 'tough call' camp:
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Old 07-05-17, 07:58 AM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
I just found this article on the Cofidis cyclist that was cut off from Demare's very erratic and unsafe lane change

Bouhanni: Demare cut me up in Tour de France sprint | Cyclingnews.com

Demare's move was much more dangerous, so why wasn't he relegated?
It can probably be debated as to 'whether Damare's move was much more dangerous' as you say. As to why he wasn't penalized? Because when he blocked the other rider who showed more conservative judgement unlike more aggressive Cav, Demare didn't block somebody into the barrier and hurt him. Putting a star out of the race due to injury is going to bring great focus and likely penalty compared to another rider that doesn't hurt anybody.

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Old 07-05-17, 08:10 AM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
I don't think the elbow is even an issue. The issue is a rider had a squirrel moment and caused a crash. I don't even think it was intentional. He just happened to be the beefier guy. If the winner was zigging and zagging on his way to the win, then he needs to be penalized as well.

Edit: Looking at the overhead video again, it appears there are 2 squirrels in that sprint. One gets the win and the other gets DQed!
Believe you forgot the third squirrel Cav who paid the biggest price.
Squirrel mentality is nothing foreign to sprinting and partly why we watch.
The more this is discussed, the more I am coming to the opinion that Sagan being tossed from the tour was unacceptably harsh even though I don't believe he was completely clean. A clash of wills all said.
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Old 07-05-17, 09:02 AM
  #172  
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I think it is the overhead clips -as is often the case in cycling- that gave judges their evidence to disqualify Sagan. The elbow may have very well been incidental; BUT, what is seen in the overhead -despite the trees blocking part of it- is that Sagan moved to his right and blocked Cavendish's way: he moved into his path, which became reduced because of the Sagan move to the right. The overhead view also shows that Sagan was NOT blocked, but DID have room to his left -probably plenty of room for me and for the judges.


To me, the announcers are part of the problem: after reviewing those shots (about 3:05 to 3:20 in the clip posted above) Christian Vande Velde distorts matters by saying that Sagan had nowhere to go, that he would have "smashed into Bouhanni" if he had gone to his left. This was a sprint to the finish: the rules say that a sprinter's obligation is to go straight -Sagan DID NOT GO STRAIGHT. Bouhanni was going straight. Cavendish's path was narrowed because Sagan moved to his right, and that rightward move quickly enough closed his straight sprint.


These announcers have been distorting matters, denying the wrong-doing of their heroes for many years now, not to mention their OWN wrong-doing.
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Old 07-05-17, 09:22 AM
  #173  
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I keep looking at the overhead, seeing what Demare, Sagan and Cav are seeing. It is just indecision on Sagan's part. As soon as Demare's wheel gets in front of Sagan the left opens up for Sagan. At that point there are 2 lanes on the right and 1 on the left for Sagan. He can't decide. Cav commits to the outside and puts the pedal to the metal. Sagan still waiting. He should have went to the left, but that closes up. Demare is gone and Cav is coming on. There are still 2 lanes on the right. Sagan's hesitation gives Cav the outside lane. Cav has moved up enough and the outside is closed as well for Sagan. Sagan should have stayed in the 2nd lane. Sagan tries to create another path and keeps moving right. He clearly did not hold his line. He is at fault for the crash. Demare, however was even worse.

Edit: BiciMan beat me to it.
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Old 07-05-17, 10:20 AM
  #174  
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Now we'll never know if Cav had it in his legs to kick that Yuppie disease to the curb and take the sprint -- he was coming on fast and had a straight shot on an inside line to the finish -- but, we now know for sure is that Sagan did not...
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Old 07-05-17, 10:57 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
Looks like both were to blame, Cavendish tried to force his pass but Sagan didn't need to flick his elbow like that.

If you saw todays' broadcast (I saw it just at the right moment today) he never touched Cav with his elbow. It was simply a reaction to Cav leaning on him.

Nice going to the UCI for making a horrible call, then realizing they could not take it back.

Idiots.
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