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-   -   A poll: Cavendish or Sagan (https://www.bikeforums.net/professional-cycling-fans/1113571-poll-cavendish-sagan.html)

brianmcg123 07-04-17 01:44 PM

A poll: Cavendish or Sagan
 
So who's fault do you think it is? Cavendish or Sagan.

NYMXer 07-04-17 01:51 PM

Hard to say but from the angle that they showed us viewers, I'd say Sagan got an elbow in there before the crash..... and that's racing.

work4bike 07-04-17 02:00 PM

I say neither, but at the same time it was dangerous for Cav to attempt to go between Sagan and the wall, but again, it's racing and you do some crazy things.

Remember back in 2010 when Renshaw was taken out of the tour for headbutting, but I thought he was just keeping the other guy from coming into his line. It seems like the officials just like to hate on those that are really successful.


Look at the video, yes Renshaw was head-butting, but the other guy instigated the whole thing.


Lazyass 07-04-17 02:05 PM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 19695875)
I say neither, but at the same time it was dangerous for Cav to attempt to go between Sagan and the wall

He didn't attempt to do that. You have to see footage of the 100 meters before the crash. They were next to each other in the middle of the road. Side by side. Then Cav veered to the left, nothing but daylight in front of him, and Sagan followed and pinched him into the wall.

work4bike 07-04-17 02:10 PM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 19695884)
He didn't attempt to do that. You have to see footage of the 100 meters before the crash. They were next to each other in the middle of the road. Side by side. Then Cav veered to the left, nothing but daylight in front of him, and Sagan followed and pinched him into the wall.

I want to see an overhead shot of this, because these telephoto lens really obscure depth perception.

Bacciagalupe 07-04-17 02:16 PM

The overhead shot is a bit obscured because of some trees.

However, it's clear from the footage that Sagan deliberately moved to the right; had plenty of room on his left; and threw an elbow before Cav started to go down. There is no indication that Cav tried to shove Sagan. Cav saw a hole, and Sagan deliberately tried to shut him down.

work4bike 07-04-17 02:20 PM

Without seeing an overhead shot you can't make a judgement that Sagan was pushing Cav into the wall on purpose. He never leaned once during the encounter and his elbow did not push Cav.

All of them were moving to the right, not just Sagan, even Cav was moving to the right, do you think he checked to make sure no one was coming up his ass as he was drifting to the right?

Bacciagalupe 07-04-17 03:06 PM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 19695919)
Without seeing an overhead shot you can't make a judgement that Sagan was pushing Cav into the wall on purpose. He never leaned once during the encounter and his elbow did not push Cav.

All of them were moving to the right, not just Sagan, even Cav was moving to the right, do you think he checked to make sure no one was coming up his ass as he was drifting to the right?

Cav wasn't moving to the right. There was no room for him to move to the right.

Sagan came up behind Cav, then started moving to the right. Sagan was trying to shut the door on Cav, but wasn't far enough ahead for that to work.

Sagan may not have known precisely where Cav was, but he generally knew (or was responsible for knowing) where Cav was.

As to doing it "on purpose," no one is accusing Sagan of putting a hit on Cav. Rather, he behaved in a reckless fashion, and in doing so caused Cav and two other riders to crash at very high speeds, resulting in severe injuries. He apparently pulled similar stunts yesterday.

brianmcg123 07-04-17 03:13 PM


Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe (Post 19695989)
Cav wasn't moving to the right. There was no room for him to move to the right.

Sagan came up behind Cav, then started moving to the right. Sagan was trying to shut the door on Cav, but wasn't far enough ahead for that to work.

Sagan may not have known precisely where Cav was, but he generally knew (or was responsible for knowing) where Cav was.

As to doing it "on purpose," no one is accusing Sagan of putting a hit on Cav. Rather, he behaved in a reckless fashion, and in doing so caused Cav and two other riders to crash at very high speeds, resulting in severe injuries. He apparently pulled similar stunts yesterday.



At no point was Sagan ever behind Cavendish during the last 1k of the race.


one4smoke 07-04-17 03:14 PM

Rubbin' is racin'

gaucho777 07-04-17 03:14 PM

At first I thought Sagan threw an elbow, especially when viewed from the front. However, after many times watching, I am now convinced the elbow came out because Cav initiated the contact with Sagan's arm from behind.

work4bike 07-04-17 03:25 PM


Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe (Post 19695989)
Cav wasn't moving to the right. There was no room for him to move to the right.

Sagan came up behind Cav, then started moving to the right. Sagan was trying to shut the door on Cav, but wasn't far enough ahead for that to work.

Sagan may not have known precisely where Cav was, but he generally knew (or was responsible for knowing) where Cav was.

As to doing it "on purpose," no one is accusing Sagan of putting a hit on Cav. Rather, he behaved in a reckless fashion, and in doing so caused Cav and two other riders to crash at very high speeds, resulting in severe injuries. He apparently pulled similar stunts yesterday.

Cav was moving right as was the whole group, you gotta look at the whole video, not just the instant of the crash.

Too many other points you're wrong on and so little time...I gotta go, but I've read this, posted by someone else and it's pretty good analysis. Please tell me where they're wrong.



Why the jury is wrong on Sagan's DQ | VeloNews.com




.

Lazyass 07-04-17 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 19696027)
Cav was moving right as was the whole group, you gotta look at the whole video, not just the instant of the crash.

And when you see the whole video, it's clear than Sagan followed him to the right all the way until he pinched him into the wall. He had no reason to, there was nobody on Sagan's right pushing him over.

195cranky 07-04-17 04:50 PM

Totally agree with gaucho777. During the TV coverage with no dvr recording saw in the numerous video repeats from the front camera view that Cav's left brake hood contacted and slid up Sagan's inside forearm and as Cav was starting to fall to the right the pull on Sagan's forearm by the brake hood caused Sagan's elbow to come up and out. Watch it close and you will see the same.

Don't know how the jury could miss that. They were distracted by all the other conspiracy theories floating and looked at the elbow as the cause but not the effect. Cav tried to squeeze thru, brake hood hits Sagan's arm, Sagan under sprint load feels it and moves his elbow up and out. That all there is there. How can other's not see that??

zymphad 07-04-17 05:01 PM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 19695884)
He didn't attempt to do that. You have to see footage of the 100 meters before the crash. They were next to each other in the middle of the road. Side by side. Then Cav veered to the left, nothing but daylight in front of him, and Sagan followed and pinched him into the wall.

What video were you watching? Cavendish was never next to Sagan, Sagan was ahead of Cavendish the entire time. Sagan was following the wheel of the person in front of him, Cavendish tried to push through where there was no room. And if you watch the video the carefully, when Sagan leaned his elbow, Cavendish was leaning full body into Sagan. If you actually look at the footage, Cavendish's shoulder was well into Sagan's torso prior to Sagan's elbow catching him.

And c'mon, we all know Cavendish and what his reputation is. He causes crashes, he doesn't look up, he doesn't care. He's done this before multiple times, and will do it again.

And as the poll says, this is part of sprinting. Sagan elbow was no more than any other shovin I see on other sprint finishes, it's wasn't a huge elbow shove. If Cavendish actually looked where he was going, and didn't try to pass by where there was no room on barrier, he would not have crashed. His own fault.


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 19696035)
And when you see the whole video, it's clear than Sagan followed him to the right all the way until he pinched him into the wall. He had no reason to, there was nobody on Sagan's right pushing him over.

Again... This is impossible. How can Cavendish crash behind Sagan if Sagan was following Cavendish. That's impossible. Cavendish was never ahead of Sagan, ever. It's the other way around, Sagan moved right with whoever wheel he was on, it was Cavendish who followed trying to pass Sagan where he couldn't. This was all on Cavendish.

And as said before, this is what Cavendish does. He's a reckless sprinter, who doesn't care where he goes or for that matter, often doesn't look where he is going. He's always been a dangerous cyclist. He's a dangerous cyclist on the track, he's caused crashes on the track, he's a dangerous cyclist on the road, causing crashes on the road, it doesn't matter what discipline it is, he causes crashes in any type of cycling race he participates in. I think it's absurd he wasn't disqualified in the past Olympics.

TejanoTrackie 07-04-17 05:02 PM

Vladimir Putin.

Cigarguy 07-04-17 05:04 PM

I blame everything on Putin and Armstrong.

Steve B. 07-04-17 05:09 PM

On the Velonews slo-mo it looks like Cavendish head butts Sagan, who reacts by pushing with his arm. His elbow goes out but it's Sagans upper arm that catches Cavendish in the jaw and L side of his face, that's what pushes Cavendish over into the barriers.

FBinNY 07-04-17 06:14 PM

I voted that Sagan was wrong, because I think he intentionally moved to close off the passing lane. That said, I think the jury overreacted, and the penalty was out of proportion to the circumstances.

He should have been charged with a minor infraction -- if any -- and gotten a time penalty or whatever the rules allow.

Unfortunately, between this and prior accidents, too many key contenders are out, and this tour will lose interest, and the results mired in controversy.

work4bike 07-04-17 06:19 PM


Originally Posted by Lazyass (Post 19696035)
And when you see the whole video, it's clear than Sagan followed him to the right all the way until he pinched him into the wall. He had no reason to, there was nobody on Sagan's right pushing him over.

Cav was behind Sagan the whole way; Cav was following Sagan.


Tell me what's wrong with the VeloNews article in post #12.

Sagan wasn't being overly aggressive, he didn't elbow Cav, he didn't even lean into Cav. Maybe you've never watched sprinting before, but it's a dangerous game and I've seen things like this countless times and many times much more worse. Actually what the winner of the stage did was far more worse, he's just lucky it didn't result in an accident.

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd say the French are stacking the odds in their new great sprinter:D

Andy_K 07-04-17 06:21 PM

From the overhead view it looked a lot like Sagan was flagrantly throwing an elbow, but from the front view you can see that Cav was already falling before the elbow went out. I could buy that Sagan drifted over and cut off Cav's line but it really doesn't seem like a DQ offense.

zymphad 07-04-17 06:26 PM

Agreed. If you see the video, you can clearly see Cavendish leaned into Sagan. And you can also see that Cavendish was already falling before Sagan's elbow came out. I agree with the multiple analysis of the videos, Sagan pushed his elbow out to try to regain balance after Cavendish barreled into him.

And I said in another post, it's ludicrous to hold Sagan responsible for what a rider BEHIND HIM does. That's idiotic. Also Cavendish chose the route he took. Demare and Sagan was ahead of him, Cavendish saw Demare push right, Sagan was Demare's wheel the ENTIRE TIME for the sprint finish. Sagan wasn't on the left side and then veered suddenly right to try to draft Demare, he was with Demare the entire time. Cavendish saw Demare, he knew Sagan was on his wheel, and yet he chose to ride as close the barriers as he could to try to pass BOTH of them.

If Cavendish managed to pass Sagan, he would have crashed into Demare and then into barriers. There was no way Cavendish could have passed Demare on the right. Take Sagan away, say Sagan was on the right, Cavendish would have crashed into the barriers anyway trying to pass Demare. Sagan wasn't any further right than Demare was.

europa 07-04-17 06:33 PM

Cavendish tried to squeeze through a gap that wasn't there and Sagan closed it down with an elbow. What was Sagan supposed to do, move over and let him through? Though I'll grant keeping the elbow down would have been an improvement.
Just a sprinting crash between two hard chargers. I think ejecting Sagan is an over reaction and I'm rather sad that Cavendish is out, this could have been the start of an interesting battle.

zymphad 07-04-17 06:38 PM


Originally Posted by europa (Post 19696379)
Cavendish tried to squeeze through a gap that wasn't there and Sagan closed it down with an elbow. What was Sagan supposed to do, move over and let him through? Though I'll grant keeping the elbow down would have been an improvement.
Just a sprinting crash between two hard chargers. I think ejecting Sagan is an over reaction and I'm rather sad that Cavendish is out, this could have been the start of an interesting battle.

Agreed.

But I also believe, even if Sagan had managed to maintain balance and keep his elbow in, Cavendish would have crashed into the barriers anyway.

USAZorro 07-04-17 07:23 PM


Originally Posted by gaucho777 (Post 19696006)
At first I thought Sagan threw an elbow, especially when viewed from the front. However, after many times watching, I am now convinced the elbow came out because Cav initiated the contact with Sagan's arm from behind.

That's how I saw it happen also.

Note that one of the very first things that beginning racers are taught is how to react to shoves and bumps. This is practiced over and over until it becomes reflexive. When someone bumps you, you shield your handlebars, and lean slightly in the direction of the contact. Cav started a move, saw it going to crap, but tried to push through anyway. One of his dumber choices ever. The only way it might have gone worse were if he tried it on Griepel or Kittel.


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