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Chris Froome.....UH-OH!

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Chris Froome.....UH-OH!

Old 12-15-17, 12:33 PM
  #51  
HardyWeinberg
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Originally Posted by fantom1 View Post
Can you explain a little bit more what you mean? 1600 is obviously more than 2, but I realize that is not what you are saying.
He's allowed to inhale 1600 micrograms per 24 hours. That's powder inhaled to his lungs, does not all get absorbed. But if he is peeing 2 micrograms per mL of urine, unless he is peeing less than 800 mL per day, he is peeing out more than the legal intake.
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Old 12-15-17, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Someone please explain.... How much does this drug open up the airways of an athlete that suffers from asthma in comparison to the airways of an athlete that doesn't suffer from asthma?

My point is, would this drug help a non-asthmatic athlete?

It would seem to me that an athlete's airways are open as much as possible; however, an athlete that suffers from asthma would not, but any use of this drug would open the airways only so much, thereby not giving them any real benefit over non-asthmatic athletes. But I've never heard of this kind of "doping", so I need some catching up...
My $0.02 (which likely isn't even worth that much):
From what I understand, generally the limit to performance isn't the amount of air going in and out of a person's lungs, but the ability to get that oxygen from the lungs to the muscle (and get the CO2 back to the lungs). Since the amount of air being breathed in and out isn't a limiting factor, there shouldn't be much of a benefit for a normal person.

Edit to add: unless, of course, it also does something else that affects performance.
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Old 12-16-17, 07:42 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
Demonstrated to enhance performance of cyclists both trained and untrained when ingested but not when inhaled in therapeutic doses (which cannot produce the output that Froome's body did)

Brief thoughts on Froome's salbutamol result | The Science of Sport

To get a handle on what Froome had to have been doing, the amount allowed into your body for therapeutic use (1600 micrograms in 24 hours) is less than the amount Froome was peeing out (2 micrograms per mL of urine)
I like that link, I've read his articles before on other topics; however, I still don't have a handle on exactly how this is a PED and from what I've read in the link, it's still not completely known and is somewhat debatable, as well as it being a masking agent, which is not confirmed according to the article.

However, I've yet to read any of the numerous links in Ross' article -- I will get around to it.

It's really easy to see how things like EPO, testosterone, growth hormones, blood transfusions, etc... enhance performance, but I still don't see how a drug that opens airways that would normally be constricted adds any benefit -- it seems it would only put an athlete back to "normal" WRT to their airways.

P.S. I'm not saying I don't believe salbutamol has a performance enhancing effect, rather I just want to understand how it enhances performance. And why is it, supposedly, performance enhancing when taken orally and not inhaled? But, like I said, I'll get around to reading the links in Dr Tucker's article.


.
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Old 12-16-17, 07:48 AM
  #54  
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"If you're a fan of froome it's harder to accept/understand so pretend it's Lance and you'll get it right away".
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Old 12-16-17, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
P.S. I'm not saying I don't believe salbutamol has a performance enhancing effect, rather I just want to understand how it enhances performance. And why is it, supposedly, performance enhancing when taken orally and not inhaled? But, like I said, I'll get around to reading the links in Dr Tucker's article..
oral (vs inhaled) beta agonists like salbutamol and clenbuterol (Contador's steak) have anabolic effects building muscle in addition to the effect of muscle relaxation that allows airways in the lung to expand.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7943228
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Old 12-16-17, 08:49 AM
  #56  
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One of the articles mentioned increased fat metabolism (which is no doubt related to lean muscle mass. ) and I believe also increase storing glucose/glycogen. Taken orally in high doses Salmonbutterball might enable a rider to build better muscle, store more glycogen, and then, in competition, use whatever fat reserves might be present .... and as far as masking other PEDs ....

I am not a scientist. All I can do is read what other non-scientists have written, and some of what scientists have written ... but just because a guy or girl has some extra letters on his/her letterhead ... doesn't mean that whatever s/he says is right, or that the matter has been fully explored (I recall a recent thread where it was "discovered" that EPO is Not a PED. Go, Science!)

Trying to reason it out, I come up with some crap like this: Sky is a big, rich team which doesn't desperately need a Vuelta win, and Chris Froome is widely accepted as the best stage racer of the day, whether he can do the Tour/Vuelta double or not.

There had to be some reason why Sky and Froome would risk illegal levels of the drug showing up .... and "asthma" doesn't cut it (as life-long asthmatic I can assure you, you cannot get your lungs more open with more shots of spray.)

So what's up? Why would Sky risk so much to win a race which most of the world doesn't even know happens?

Maybe Sky was pretty sure they could get away with it. Maybe someone as Sky lost sight of the big picture and got too focused on the Vuelta. Maybe Chris Froome Really wanted the double for his own satisfaction, and pushed for it ... and maybe he knew who to push, who would back him and make a potentially foolish move. Maybe Sky was looking for Spanish sponsors?

Whatever, I am pretty certain nothing happened accidentally. Doubling the dose through the inhaler ... he would have had to use the inhaler enough during the race that it would have been noticed. And all the day and night before too .... he was tested after the stage, so he would have had to use the inhaler 20-40 times between breakfast and the end of the race ... and still likely wouldn't have come close to that concentration in his urine.

The only sensible answer (to me, so far) is that Froome took a pill, which he knew was illegal, and figured Sky could talk/bribe/bargain its way out of it.

As people have noted, he was sucking wind on Stage Six, but riding right up front the next day, when he tested over the limit. What a Coincidence!

Originally Posted by texaspandj View Post
"If you're a fan of froome it's harder to accept/understand so pretend it's Lance and you'll get it right away".
This is funny in that, "Man that is nauseating but accurate" sort of way.

A rider who was losing on Stage Six rocked Stage Seven--and tested positive for drugs. Where's the confusion?
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Old 12-16-17, 11:01 PM
  #57  
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Good. This guy was Lance Armstrong 2.0, UK version. Such a phony, and I'm surprised it took so long to catch him. Although, not really, with the Sky/BC puppet in charge of the UCI for all those years.
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Old 12-17-17, 04:53 AM
  #58  
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One thing about urine is that the concentration can vary considerably depending on the time of day, or whether the person is dehydrated.

Perhaps the test should be a ratio of Salbutamol to Creatinine, or a similar ratio.
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Old 12-17-17, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Someone please explain.... How much does this drug open up the airways of an athlete that suffers from asthma in comparison to the airways of an athlete that doesn't suffer from asthma?

My point is, would this drug help a non-asthmatic athlete?

It would seem to me that an athlete's airways are open as much as possible; however, an athlete that suffers from asthma would not, but any use of this drug would open the airways only so much, thereby not giving them any real benefit over non-asthmatic athletes. But I've never heard of this kind of "doping", so I need some catching up...
I use an albuterol inhaler. At the normal therapeutic level of up to 12 puffs a day the only difference it makes for me is being able to finish hill climbs without walking or stopping at the top to catch my breath before I pass out.

But the normal therapeutic level is well under 100 ng/ml. I'm surprised the rules permit as high as 1,000 ng/ml. And as the doctor and other experts have noted, it would be practically impossible to get to 1,000 ng/ml with an inhaler, let alone the 2,000 ng/ml alleged against Froome.

Personally I wouldn't risk it. At age 60 with a wonky thyroid, borderline hypertension, normally rapid resting heart rate and other health issues, such high doses of albuterol would kill me before I saw any benefit in cycling.

The problem with inhalers for albuterol and similar asthma meds is the inhalers are trying to spray a dry powder into the airways. It's incredibly inefficient. Most of the powder sticks to the tongue, inside the mouth and throat. When my airway is constricted it takes at least 6 puffs just to get any down the windpipe. I have to space them out, 2 puffs at a time, about 15 minutes apart, until the airway gradually eases open and a tiny amount of the albuterol actually reaches the right place. It's ridiculously inefficient, and most asthmatics I've talked with agree.

If you need a rescue bronchodilator, good luck. Better be prepared to do an impromptu roadside cricothyrotomy on yourself. A pocket knife and the hose from my tire pump should do the trick, if I don't pass out first.

I get as much benefit, if not more, from Sudafed, ephedrine and coffee as from albuterol. In fact my insurance plan just stopped covering albuterol inhalers and if I can't get an exemption to reduce the copay I'll just do without. In emergencies I can pop an ephedrine tablet, wait a few minutes and I'm good to go again. I'm not competing so I can take whatever works that's legal for ordinary consumers.

Frankly, EPO would be safer than massive doses of asthma meds. Which again underscores how silly it is to try to stop competitive athletes from gaining an edge. It's like trying to stop alcoholics from drinking by banning potable booze. They'll just turn to drinking mouthwash or Sterno and kill themselves. Same with banning heroin and other drugs. It just results in addicts turning to far more lethal stuff.

To reach 2,000 ng/ml, Froome was almost certainly ingesting the stuff. And it probably was being used to cover up something else.

Jacques Anquetil was the last honest competitive cyclist where doping is concerned.
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Old 12-17-17, 09:26 PM
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https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017...roomes-doping/
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Old 12-18-17, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
oral (vs inhaled) beta agonists like salbutamol and clenbuterol (Contador's steak) have anabolic effects building muscle in addition to the effect of muscle relaxation that allows airways in the lung to expand.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7943228
If you're looking to build muscle, having a high value for one day (or a few days) likely isn't all that useful. You'd have to use it for an extended period of time for it to work.
The whole thing just seems very odd to me.
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Old 12-18-17, 01:07 AM
  #62  
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That makes sense. I learned a lot from reading that. I'm still curious to know why only the one test result was high though.
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Old 12-18-17, 04:27 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
That makes sense. I learned a lot from reading that. I'm still curious to know why only the one test result was high though.
Maybe he forgot to take some other "medicine" he was taking, which would normally mask the excessive salbutamol intake, which was needed to mask some other other "medicine" he was taking.
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Old 12-18-17, 05:19 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Jacques Anquetil was the last honest competitive cyclist where doping is concerned.
Yes honest when asked did he take drugs he answered Yes.

Also, Alcohol is a drug.

Last edited by texaspandj; 12-18-17 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 12-18-17, 08:47 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by torero310 View Post
If you don't mind me asking? Is there a reason you (correct me if I'm wrong) don't like Team Sky? (granted I like all of the teams in pro races currently). And I agree with you on the rest of it.
Hard to describe in rational terms, but...to me Team Sky is the N.E. Patriots of cycling. Their dominance kind of spoils the sense of competition.
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Old 12-18-17, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
If you're looking to build muscle, having a high value for one day (or a few days) likely isn't all that useful. You'd have to use it for an extended period of time for it to work.
The whole thing just seems very odd to me.
I don't know what specific marginal gain Sky was looking for in dosing Froome up to the level he tested at. UCI has reason to regulate salbutamol and it is demonstrated to enhance performance in trained and untrained cyclists when ingested not inhaled so the fact that he missed the already generous limit by 100% is good enough for me to not really care if the various published mechanisms of the drug's effect map precisely to the gap between Froome and his nearest competitors that day.
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Old 12-18-17, 10:41 AM
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This is good. I am a lifelong asthmatic, and had to take albuterol/salbutamol smuggled in from Canada before it was legalized in the US, I cannot see leaving the circumstances that led to those kinds of adventures out of a hypothetical biography. Heck, I have told my kids about it.

And with all of that I know there is no defensible therapeutic reason to inhale it at the rate Froome tests at. If the right amount of the rescue inhaler doesn't work you need to move onto something else. Why don't we see him chugging up Mont Ventoux with a domestique holding a solar powered nebulizer for him so he can make it to the summit? (or taking up the slack in the power cord connecting a nebulizer to the cigarette lighter in the team car)
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Old 12-18-17, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
He's allowed to inhale 1600 micrograms per 24 hours. That's powder inhaled to his lungs, does not all get absorbed. But if he is peeing 2 micrograms per mL of urine, unless he is peeing less than 800 mL per day, he is peeing out more than the legal intake.
The solution is to either get rid of the "doctors exemptions" where cyclist can get a doctor to allow them to take a prescription that others are not allowed to take at all. Or allow all athletes to take the same medications regardless of pre-existing conditions. No more middle ground.
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Old 12-18-17, 07:18 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
The solution is to either get rid of the "doctors exemptions" where cyclist can get a doctor to allow them to take a prescription that others are not allowed to take at all. Or allow all athletes to take the same medications regardless of pre-existing conditions. No more middle ground.
Not a solution... asthma meds like the ones in question here, do not require any such exemption to be used. Also, to allow a free for all where everyone can take whatever they want is not a solution either.
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Old 12-19-17, 02:25 AM
  #70  
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it would be more than a little bit ironic(al) if fair españa's major stage race was the country/race that brought down the bright light(s) of team
sky given the reluctance of the powers that be to advance the findings of operation puerto over a decade ago...
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Old 12-19-17, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
My $0.02 (which likely isn't even worth that much):
From what I understand, generally the limit to performance isn't the amount of air going in and out of a person's lungs, but the ability to get that oxygen from the lungs to the muscle (and get the CO2 back to the lungs). Since the amount of air being breathed in and out isn't a limiting factor, there shouldn't be much of a benefit for a normal person.

Edit to add: unless, of course, it also does something else that affects performance.
I find the harder I work, the harder I breathe, to the point where I can breathe in any more air.

Now, you may be right that in ordinary activity, only a portion of the O2 is utilized, and 100% of the blood passing through the lungs is oxygenated. But, the heart pumps blood faster, and perhaps the lungs work more for marginal gains.
Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
If you're looking to build muscle, having a high value for one day (or a few days) likely isn't all that useful. You'd have to use it for an extended period of time for it to work.
The whole thing just seems very odd to me.
I would imagine that a "tour" type race is like extreme training, so perhaps one would also use one's training aids. But, it all seems a bit odd.

If I was going to take anabolic steroids, perhaps I'd accept the risk of some random passport failure, but also hire people to track the monitors and testers, hopefully getting some warning before they show up.

On the other hand, knowing that one's urine and perhaps blood would be tested 3x a day during a race, I'd be extremely cautious during races.

Of course, there is the risk of having one's lab results jump around too much, or showing up high on training days, and low on race days, or other suspicious patterns.

I wonder if the drug is addictive, so if one takes high does during training, then stops during races, asthma would act up, or perhaps even be induced.
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Old 12-19-17, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I wonder if the drug is addictive, so if one takes high does during training, then stops during races, asthma would act up, or perhaps even be induced.
I cannot speak to salbutamol taken orally, but I have used several different inhalers and none of them had that effect.

Basically, a shot would help--but not always cure--a bronchioconstriction, allowing me to breathe more as if I weren't suffering inflamed bronchi. Three or five shots at once wouldn't make it any better .... or rather, once I got the effect (got enough of the drug actually into my lungs through my constricted airways, which might take three or five shots) then more wouldn't have any more effect.

On days when I didn't need the inhaler, I didn't need the inhaler. It wasn't that the symptoms would recur if I didn't take the drug. Some days my bronchi would be more sensitive, or produce more mucus, or just swell up ... but the next day I might be much better for some reason.

Taking the drug has a short-term effect on the symptoms, but in no way reduces or increases the underlying affliction. It is like taking aspirin after a heart attack ... it will thin the blood but in no way strenghen or weaken the heart.
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Old 12-19-17, 06:44 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Someone please explain.... How much does this drug open up the airways of an athlete that suffers from asthma in comparison to the airways of an athlete that doesn't suffer from asthma?

My point is, would this drug help a non-asthmatic athlete?

It would seem to me that an athlete's airways are open as much as possible; however, an athlete that suffers from asthma would not, but any use of this drug would open the airways only so much, thereby not giving them any real benefit over non-asthmatic athletes. But I've never heard of this kind of "doping", so I need some catching up...
I know understand...Thanks to all that provided some great links to read on this issue.

I think Froome is done.

There is one thing I don't understand... How could he make this mistake?
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Old 12-19-17, 07:15 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
I know understand...Thanks to all that provided some great links to read on this issue.

I think Froome is done.

There is one thing I don't understand... How could he make this mistake?
When people keep telling you how great you are or that you're Superman, you start believing it. It's human nature. Then your actions become based more on that than reality.
It happens, it could happen to you or me.

Last edited by texaspandj; 12-19-17 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 12-19-17, 07:24 AM
  #75  
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I don't see why this should end Froome's career. Credibility, sure. But it's not a banned substance, doesn't even need a TUE, and so far only one lab test has been reported.

If he suffers serious repercussions it's mainly because Sky has pissed off all the right people and Froome is one of the least engaging champions in decades.

Keep in mind that in pro cycling, nobody likes a winner. Even Eddy Merckx was harshly criticized and even physically assaulted toward the end of his career for being too successful and too dominant.

Pro cycling is a wonderfully stupid sport that makes absolutely no sense. Doping can only make it better. If by better I mean crazier and more entertaining. Which I do.
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