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Chris Froome.....UH-OH!

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Chris Froome.....UH-OH!

Old 12-19-17, 07:50 AM
  #76  
CliffordK
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
I think Froome is done.

There is one thing I don't understand... How could he make this mistake?
Yep, assuming he was using it for the anabolic benefits, then it sounds like a pretty stupid mistake when he knew he would be tested.

As I mentioned earlier (in one of the two topics), a person's urine concentration varies considerably with the time of day and one's hydration.

One might expect some kind of a standardized test to be expressed in drug/creatinine.

Instead, the UCI apparently tests for an absolute concentration of salbutamol. It could be that the one sample of urine was unusually concentrated. Or, perhaps Froome was taking the drug at close to the maximum dosage, and then gave a concentrated drug sample.

If drugs are being tested on an absolute urine concentration, then one would expect an athlete to have a morning routine such as waking up, immediately heading to the bathroom and flushing one's morning urine. Then drinking lots of water with breakfast before the official morning sample. And such a routine should be pretty routine... until the one time one forgets to do the morning flush. Or, perhaps that time when one finishes a race on a hard hill climb without water.
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Old 12-19-17, 10:27 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
I don't know what specific marginal gain Sky was looking for in dosing Froome up to the level he tested at. UCI has reason to regulate salbutamol and it is demonstrated to enhance performance in trained and untrained cyclists when ingested not inhaled so the fact that he missed the already generous limit by 100% is good enough for me to not really care if the various published mechanisms of the drug's effect map precisely to the gap between Froome and his nearest competitors that day.
Oh I agree completely. My saying it's "odd" doesn't mean I think Froome shouldn't be punished. This is a clear (and blatant) violation and the rules state that you're responsible for what is in your body.

I'd just like to know, for curiosity's sake, what Sky/Froome was thinking or how they messed up.
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Old 12-19-17, 10:39 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I find the harder I work, the harder I breathe, to the point where I can breathe in any more air.

Now, you may be right that in ordinary activity, only a portion of the O2 is utilized, and 100% of the blood passing through the lungs is oxygenated. But, the heart pumps blood faster, and perhaps the lungs work more for marginal gains.
Yes, you breath harder, but it still isn't the limiting factor. Getting the air into your lungs isn't the issue, the issue is getting it from your lungs to your muscles. If the main limiting factor was how much air you could breath into your lungs, something like EPO would be much less effective.

https://www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/capacity

You'll note that Pulmonary Ventilation is given only a passing mention here, while: " In fact, some researchers have concluded that 70 to 85 percent of the limitation in VO2max can be attributed to maximal cardiac output (Cerretelli & DiPrampero 1987)."

Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I would imagine that a "tour" type race is like extreme training, so perhaps one would also use one's training aids. But, it all seems a bit odd.

If I was going to take anabolic steroids, perhaps I'd accept the risk of some random passport failure, but also hire people to track the monitors and testers, hopefully getting some warning before they show up.

On the other hand, knowing that one's urine and perhaps blood would be tested 3x a day during a race, I'd be extremely cautious during races.

Of course, there is the risk of having one's lab results jump around too much, or showing up high on training days, and low on race days, or other suspicious patterns.

I wonder if the drug is addictive, so if one takes high does during training, then stops during races, asthma would act up, or perhaps even be induced.
It would definitely help during a tour. The article linked shortly after my post was a pretty good explanation IMO. But it would still have to be high for a while to work. But you'd want to be taking more than just one day I'd think. What I find odd is that his levels were fine the rest of the days, but bad for this one. Likely someone messed up with the dossage or something, but from the sounds of it, they would have messed up very badly. Maybe he was trying to keep it at 1,000 ng/ml or close to that and accidentally took a double dose?
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Old 12-19-17, 12:46 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Oh I agree completely. My saying it's "odd" doesn't mean I think Froome shouldn't be punished. This is a clear (and blatant) violation and the rules state that you're responsible for what is in your body.

I'd just like to know, for curiosity's sake, what Sky/Froome was thinking or how they messed up.
I hear you. I wonder if he (or his sommelier) just accidentally grabbed 2 from Bottle A instead of 1 from A and 1 from B.
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Old 12-19-17, 01:02 PM
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All this debate over the benefits of the inhaled form of this drug is useless, whether the increase of air or oxygen, with the use of an inhaler, can provide a marked improvement has already been played down quite a bit.

The concentration levels CF had in his system seem to indicate that there may have been oral or even intravenous use going on which presents other benefits. Mainly helping the rider maintain or even build lean muscle mass. These benefits would only be realized over a longer period, not as an instant stimulant during an event. If this is the case, it means that a more calculated attempt to skirt the system has been underway for an extended time.
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Old 12-19-17, 07:10 PM
  #81  
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Ok, so I wanted to see if I could find the entire stage 18 on youtube, which I couldn't. But I did find this where Froome is apparently like a peach and says he felt great. Not damning, but I don't think it helps his case since he wouldn't have used a bunch of inhaler unless he was suffering somewhat.

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Old 12-19-17, 08:15 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
The solution is to either get rid of the "doctors exemptions" where cyclist can get a doctor to allow them to take a prescription that others are not allowed to take at all. Or allow all athletes to take the same medications regardless of pre-existing conditions. No more middle ground.
Originally Posted by Moose View Post
Not a solution... asthma meds like the ones in question here, do not require any such exemption to be used. Also, to allow a free for all where everyone can take whatever they want is not a solution either.
As I understand it, Salmeterol no longer requires a TUE, and thus anybody can take low dose inhaled Salmeterol. Exceptions can be made for high dose therapeutic use with a TUE.

Therapeutic Use Exemptions

Here is an interesting article about Asthma and Sports.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933613/

The interesting thing is the large number of athletes with Asthma in endurance sports, and they in fact do VERY WELL in general. Various theories about Asthma and sports are entertained in the article including micro damage to the lungs during extended training efforts.

For Froome, I think the next step is to do a "detox", then evaluate whether he actually has Asthma. It should be easy enough to do in a lab setting. If he can prove therapeutic use of Salmeterol in a lab setting, that would go a long ways towards clearing his name. If he can't prove he needs it, then throw him under the bus.

There are also excretion studies that can be preformed, although, the question is why only one sample was high for Froome. Unfortunately, we haven't been provided with the actual data for all of his other tests. Was he close to the legal limit?

The article also lists several Asthma medications that are not regulated. If Froome really wants to get ahead of this, he could voluntarily stop using Salmeterol, and choose one of the other non-regulated drugs.

Glucocorticoids (corticosteroids) are also allowed by inhalation, but not injection or oral during competition (but, I think can be used without restrictions during training).
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Old 12-20-17, 12:32 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Here is an interesting article about Asthma and Sports.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933613/

The interesting thing is the large number of athletes with Asthma in endurance sports, and they in fact do VERY WELL in general. Various theories about Asthma and sports are entertained in the article including micro damage to the lungs during extended training efforts.
Having experienced exertion related asthma attacks many times over the decades, my best guess is that it's related to a pesky but non-fatal auto-immune disorder I've been battling for years (Hashimoto's thyroiditis). I'm betting it's provoked by the body's overreaction to mold and other allergens stirred up along some roads, particularly in rural areas.

So in bad conditions the harder I ride, the harder I breathe, the deeper the stuff gets into the airway, and the stronger the reaction after 30 minutes or so into a ride.

And it doesn't necessarily correspond with daily reports of airborne allergens. Airborne pollen, etc., may not be the problem. Some of us seem to respond more strongly to stuff that's accumulated along the roads, then stirred up by wind, passing vehicles, etc., particularly in dry conditions.

Several years ago my then-wife and I met her father in the mountains for a camping trip he'd already begun a few days earlier. As soon as we arrived we noticed he was very ill, unusual for him -- he was a big, strong, healthy ox of a guy. But he could hardly breathe and looked gray. I was concerned it might be a pulmonary embolism, which I'd seen in my grandmother when a blood clot that formed in her legs during a long automobile trip broke loose and lodged in her lungs.

We took him to the nearest ER and discovered he'd had a severe allergic reaction, probably to mold stirred up by vehicles passing on the gravel road near his tent. They gave him a steroid injection, a week's worth of predisone and some inhalers. He was okay the next day and well again in a couple of days. We moved the camp farther from the road to avoid a repeat.

I also have problems with airway constriction in cold dry air. I often feel my best on cool or moderately warm humid days. So on cold dry rides I wear a disposable paper medical mask, and occasionally carry one on hot dry days although so far I haven't used one in hot weather. I'm more concerned about overheating than asthma since I can use my inhaler and ephedrine tablets in an emergency.
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Old 12-20-17, 09:00 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
As I understand it, Salmeterol no longer requires a TUE, and thus anybody can take low dose inhaled Salmeterol. Exceptions can be made for high dose therapeutic use with a TUE.
That's not the drug he tested in excess for.
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Old 12-20-17, 09:11 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
That's not the drug he tested in excess for.
Oh, sorry, Salbutamol.

From the TUE page:
Therapeutic Use Exemptions
Inhaled salbutamol (maximum 1600 micrograms over 24 hours in divided doses not to exceed 800 micrograms over 12 hours starting from any dose), inhaled formoterol (maximum delivered dose 54 micrograms over 24 hours) and inhaled salmeterol (maximum delivered dose of 200 micrograms over 24 hours) are not prohibited and therefore do not require a TUE.
For inhaled salbutamol, you must obtain a TUE if you need to take more than 1600 micrograms over 24 hours in divided doses not to exceed 800 micrograms over 12 hours starting from any dose.
So, any rider should be able to take up to 1600 micrograms per day of inhaled Salbutamol, but best not come out high unless one can prove a medical need.
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Old 12-20-17, 07:18 PM
  #86  
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I have exercise induced asthma (EIA) which I developed over a period of years of going all out on long climbs. I don't know the physiology of why and how this develops but it does. So much for that.

The odd thing about this is that Sky has the very best of everything, including doctors and drugs. However in all the studies I've read, salmeterol works better than salbutamol at every dosage. Salmeterol is longer lasting, requires a lower dose, and works better. OK, so then why are his doctors giving him salbutamol?

I use an inhaled corticosteroid (fluticazone) daily and salmeterol when it's going to be a long high-output day. Salmeterol lasts 12 hours. The inhaled steroid has no anabolic effect.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:09 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
The odd thing about this is that Sky has the very best of everything, including doctors and drugs. However in all the studies I've read, salmeterol works better than salbutamol at every dosage. Salmeterol is longer lasting, requires a lower dose, and works better. OK, so then why are his doctors giving him salbutamol?
Anabolic Effects?

Even so, it would certainly seem reasonable to give the "better" drug on race days.
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Old 12-20-17, 11:29 PM
  #88  
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Anyone know how long salbutamol can be detected in the urine? Is it something that one could mask by being diluting one's urine (drinking a lot of water before a test)? I'm just thinking that if Froome/Team Sky had a general idea of when tests are given they may have been able to masks abuse with some knowledge of how long it takes for levels to drop in the body, testing times, and dilutions techniques.
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Old 12-22-17, 06:58 AM
  #89  
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Lance did a podcast on this...

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Old 12-22-17, 07:38 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Lance did a podcast on this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eXvB0FwwW0
Damn! LA looks like he has aged 15 years since the Oprah interview.
And I just learned this scandal has been dubbed "Puff-Gate".

Last edited by Shimagnolo; 12-22-17 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 12-22-17, 09:25 AM
  #91  
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As Lance said: Chris Froome's reputation is tarnished forever. He'll never hear the end of it from the cycling fans along the roads. Who knows what some jackass may try to pull.
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Old 12-22-17, 02:11 PM
  #92  
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Lance and friends got all hung about a lot of side issues ... but never addressed that Froome might have been taking drugs to improve performance. They refused to consider anything but too many puffs on the inhaler. However, if salbutamol can mask other PEDs ... and his performance one day was markedly better than the prior day ...

Not saying he is guilty but definitely saying it is worth examining.

Further ... his reputation has been damaged by ... A Positive Test. A and B samples. Just like any other cyclist he can argue his case but even Sky admits that there was twice the legal limit in his urine.

Contador lost multiple Grand Tour titles and most of a season of riding for amounts of clenbuterol verging on experimental error.

I don't recall a lot of people hating him afterwards, either.

In any case, it is interesting to debate the politics ... whether the change of UCI presidency (UK to France) is in some way coupled with a UK team getting hit, or whatever ...

But at the base, it seems to me that other, less famous riders have gotten suspensions for lower results. Are we all crying about their "reputations"? Are we claiming it was "politics"? Are we demanding inquiries?

Fact seems to be, Froome Badly failed a drug test. That is what has to be dealt with. All the stuff other people who would rather discuss .... not to the point. Sky will spend enormous sums trying to prove Froome didn't break the rules ... he just somehow tested that way.

Funniest thing to me was LA and the other dude asking,"Why are we seeing this movie again?" and then blaming the various groups running cycling .. . but NOT blaming then for allowing doping.

We are watching this movie again because for all the talk, no one has really tried to "clean up" cycling---just tried to clean up the "image" of cycling. Paint over the rust, turn the dirty side down, and spin, spin, spin. But actually make athletes ride on bread and water? No way. Actually reform the sport? No way. Too many people are getting rich today, and tomorrow can take care of itself.

One interesting point ... Sky's annul budget, LA points out, is less than some star baseball players make. makes it even more silly, how hard people fight to keep a sport dirty when it really isn't even "big league."
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Old 12-22-17, 02:25 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by maelochs View Post
fact seems to be, froome badly failed a drug test. That is what has to be dealt with. All the stuff other people who would rather discuss .... Not to the point. Sky will spend enormous sums trying to prove froome didn't break the rules ... He just somehow tested that way.
+100000000
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Old 12-22-17, 07:05 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Fact seems to be, Froome Badly failed a drug test. That is what has to be dealt with. All the stuff other people who would rather discuss .... not to the point. Sky will spend enormous sums trying to prove Froome didn't break the rules ... he just somehow tested that way.
Likely they'll spend less than a week's worth of wages for Froome.

If I was them, I'd practice failing this pharmakinetic study before going in for the official study. It likely will involve taking the maximum allowed daily dose in a relatively short time period, and also extreme dehydration.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
One interesting point ... Sky's annul budget, LA points out, is less than some star baseball players make. makes it even more silly, how hard people fight to keep a sport dirty when it really isn't even "big league."
Yet, I think the top tier riders do reasonably well. Despite erased titles and a legal mess, Armstrong came out of the cycling career as a multi-millionaire.
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Old 12-22-17, 07:55 PM
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He could always retire, and run a podcast about doping in cycling
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Old 12-22-17, 11:57 PM
  #96  
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A reminder. Lance never failed (that stuck) a drug test. Froome has.
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Old 12-23-17, 12:24 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
A reminder. Lance never failed (that stuck) a drug test. Froome has.
He did and got an after the fact TUE. Cortisone, 1999 I believe. Postal claimed it was applied externally for saddle sores which would not have triggered the positive and UCI knew that. (Yeah, you did say "stuck". Had we a clean UCI it would have.)

Ben
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Old 12-23-17, 08:21 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
A reminder. Lance never failed (that stuck) a drug test. Froome has.
That one sentence explains everything that is wrong.

He never failed a test in over a decade, and admitted to doping that entire time.

Yeah right .... "Nothing to see here, folks, move along and continue to digest the media pap we created just for you ... rainbow unicorn bicycle Wheeee .... greatest sport in the world. Bread and water, folks, move along."

Admitted. to Doping. The Entire Time.

" ....never failed a drug test ...."

Well, I guess that sure proves Something ......
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Old 12-23-17, 09:25 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
He did and got an after the fact TUE. ...
That is what I meant by
Originally Posted by Doge View Post
(that stuck)
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Old 12-27-17, 04:24 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by bikecrate View Post
Hard to describe in rational terms, but...to me Team Sky is the N.E. Patriots of cycling. Their dominance kind of spoils the sense of competition.
Hmmm... I can definitely respect that. Makes it easy to win if you support only one guy rather than making it a free for all.
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