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Chris Froome and the 2018 TdF

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Old 06-10-18, 09:09 PM
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The last few articles I've read indicate the regulatory organizations and interested participants are quibbling over whether it's possible to reproduce the conditions claimed by Froome's people. Apparently the only way to determine this is with human subjects in the lab, using salbutamol, under various conditions of hydration/dehydration, over a time span designed to replicate grand tour conditions.

You can imagine the money it takes to put together a statistically significant sampling group of elite level athletes who are considered physiologically comparable to someone like Froome, yet have nothing better to do than serve as lab rats for 3-4 week experiments conducted under rigorously controlled conditions.
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Old 06-13-18, 05:49 AM
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One of the components in Vape juice is the same as used in an inhaler for opening the airways. When I started cycling back in Sept. 15 I was still vaping, (smoked cigs 27 years before that) and found breathing very easy even though I wasn't cycling fit. A month later when I quit vaping, breathing felt like I was doing it under water. All the sudden I had another choice, continue vaping to ease my cycling stress, or go all natural. I went the hard route by telling myself it was that or nothing. Talked to several guys that took up vaping to help breathing and they say their power meter confirmed the difference.
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Old 06-13-18, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
The last few articles I've read indicate the regulatory organizations and interested participants are quibbling over whether it's possible to reproduce the conditions claimed by Froome's people. Apparently the only way to determine this is with human subjects in the lab, using salbutamol, under various conditions of hydration/dehydration, over a time span designed to replicate grand tour conditions.

You can imagine the money it takes to put together a statistically significant sampling group of elite level athletes who are considered physiologically comparable to someone like Froome, yet have nothing better to do than serve as lab rats for 3-4 week experiments conducted under rigorously controlled conditions.
I thought the idea was to test FROOME, just one rider.

The first step would be to simply re-analyse all of Froome's data over the last few years. How many tests has he given. Urine concentration?

Putting together a team of test subjects to do the testing? Hmmm.. One could put together a team of elite asthmatic riders, and send them off somewhere to actually train (or race).

Why are we already into June, with Froome racing, and nobody has actually started the studies?

They should have put together their team of racers, to do the study well before the Tour Down Under in January.

I'm sure one could have built up a team of 8 asthmatic patients (and perhaps a team of controls) to do the race. Get some special wavers to race... it could well be good publicity for the Tour. How many elite amateurs would jump at the chance to head off to a training camp, then to Australia for a pro race with pay?

Simply regulate water intake, dosing schedules, and make sure someone is holding a cup whenever they have to take a whiz, 24 hours a day.

Oh, and these inhalers that Froome has, and other pro riders are using... how complex would it be to add electronics to track actual doses given, times, etc. Can one vary puff duration?
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Old 06-13-18, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I thought the idea was to test FROOME, just one rider.
Yeah, you'd think that would be the logical step. Froome's people claim his elevated salbutamol reading was a fluke, based on a combination of his metabolism, training and competition schedule, extraordinary expended effort, dehydration, blah-blah-blah.

IOW, they seem to be claiming he's so exceptional that no proxy test on other athletes could fairly duplicate him to prove that the elevated salbutamol level was a fluke not due to intentionally or inadvertently exceeding the dosage.

If that's the case, the logical step would be to retest Froome under conditions as possible to those at the time of the elevated level. But he'd need to take the maximum prescribed and legal amount of salbutamol every day. That poses an ethical dilemma. Can an athlete be compelled to use a drug that he and his doctor say he doesn't actually need right now? IOW, Froome's could claim You can't make me take salbutamol just to prove or disprove something. It could endanger my life if I'm not actually suffering from asthma *right now*."

It's a conundrum.

Oh, and these inhalers that Froome has, and other pro riders are using... how complex would it be to add electronics to track actual doses given, times, etc. Can one vary puff duration?
It could be done. These devices deliver metered amounts but they're made to fairly low standards so it's likely the metered amounts vary between uses. Not enough to risk efficacy, and probably not enough to double the amount delivered per puff, which is what Froome's people would need to claim.

Another problem is the inhalers are inherently inconsistent delivery methods. With my own albuterol inhalers only a little goes down the trachea into the bronchioles. Most ends up in the mouth and is ingested where it does relatively little good for relieving asthma constriction. The paradox is that the more constriction and congested you are, the less efficient the puff inhalers are at delivering the medication where it's actually needed. If the trachea and bronchioles are clearer, the inhaler works more effectively.

That's the main reason why I've long criticized the notion of albuterol inhalers as *rescue* inhalers. They are *not* rescue inhalers. They are preventive inhalers. If not taken early enough to prevent an asthma attack, the albuterol inhaler is useless as a rescue inhaler. Most of the medication lands on the tongue. You can ingest it and wait about an hour and it'll work a little. By then you're dead from a severe asthma attack.

The puff inhaler is inherently an inefficient delivery method that practically ensures the patient will occasionally take an "overdose" -- which is rarely, if ever, harmful to the patient, but could conceivably produce an elevated reading such as Froome experienced.

However I have not heard Froome's people describe this specific conundrum as a possible reason for his elevated reading. It would have been simpler last year for a frustrated Froome to say "Hey, I had an asthma attack, my throat was so constricted I couldn't breathe well enough to get anything down my trachea from the inhaler, and in a panic I lost count of how many puffs I used."

I would actually buy that excuse, having experienced it myself. I don't know whether that would be considered an acceptable excuse to the cycling authorities for Froome. It's a tacit admission to taking an overdose. Medically necessary, but not permissible in competition. Victory voided without penalty. Perhaps a DNF -- rider unable to complete course under the prescribed conditions.

But let's be realistic. Either:
The available tests are inadequate to check for use/misuse of albuterol/salbutamol.

Or

He probably deliberately ingested more than necessary as a PED, not as an asthma treatment, for the advantages in lean muscle mass without sacrificing strength and stamina. And counted on the imprecise nature of testing as an excuse to cast doubt on the results.

The end result will be unfortunate for many, many more people. Now even amateur athletes know that albuterol can be abused in large doses for certain types of gains. It opens the door to massive abuse which in turn will fuel the mass media paranoia and social media hysteria machine. And yet another perfectly useful medication will be tightly regulated and more expensive, harming millions of patients who legitimately needed albuterol.

Same as my complaint about the hysteria over opiates, harming patients with legitimate needs to control chronic, severe pain who do not become addicted.

And now the junkies have moved on to loperamide -- a diarrhea medication available over the counter -- in a attempt to get high. Loperamide is an opiate, but without any significant psychoactive or pain relieving effects. It primarily works on slowing motility to relieve diarrhea. One or two doses relieve most diarrhea. Junkies are taking fistfuls of the stuff trying to get high. Then they wind up in the ER with an impacted colon. Now the states and feds are considering regulating a perfectly good, cheap medication.

Junkies f**k everything up for everyone.
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Old 06-28-18, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bikecrate View Post
Since I'm an unrepentant irrational Froome\Sky hater...I say ban away. The tour will be more interesting without him.

BTW, has Froome ever lost a grand tour that he was the GC rider? Excluding the ones he crashed out.

I've watched every single TDF since the early 80s but I'm joining the boycott, if they allow Froome to race this year's TDF then I'm not watching any more.
Actually i'm also waiting before I renew my NBC Gold subscription until it's decided. If Froome's in, no renewal. Maybe I'll convert to some other sport even though cycling has been the only sport I have followed in decades.
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Old 06-28-18, 01:25 PM
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Seems to me that if Froome is out of this year's TdF, they'd already announced it with just over a week to go, but then again I don't know....
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Old 06-29-18, 12:08 PM
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my .02C...

As a kid w/ asthma that at times was so bad I had to lie down and try to relax as I struggled to breath through what felt like a straw....I believe the TUE for Froome is BS. Diet and exercise eliminated asthmatic episodes for me in my early 20s, although I still have a mild symptom at times. I have since won races, clean of course. Most kids grow out of asthma. It is an allergy more or less. Like getting a sniffle. But bc it has to do w/ breathing ppl get very emotional about it. If you are an obese adult and eat a poor diet high in sugar you will likely have symptoms for your entire life. But a pro athlete? c'mon man!!

Many kids from 1st world countries w/ very protective parents probably got a diagnosis of asthma at one time or another and have a rescue inhaler. So they ate a bunch of sugar, were probably dehydrated, got into some dust etc. Restricted bronchial passages...it is a natural and GOOD reaction from the body, vs inhaling a bunch of mold spores or cat dander or something like that. But we all know there are Drs lined up to write a presrciption for the $100 inhaler. A slight wheeze is all it takes. caching!$$$ (that's the sound of an old cash register for you youngsters...)

So here is my take on all the TUEs....there is no way to establish what brings one with a condition up to par. The meds unfairly catapult the users ahead. These rescue inhalers artificially dilate the bronchial passages and allow the users to race wide open and "unfiltered". When Froome was coughing, it was BC he had puffed so much he had overridden his the natural ability of his body to regulate air intake. He probably inhaled a contaminant and it went straight into his lungs repeatedly. Make sense? So he coughed it out. When you have real asthma you can't come close to a cough.

I would love to see all pro athletes compete on a truly level playing field. as in same diet. that's Utopian, and it will never happen. just like the Viking Berserkers tripping on Psilocybin "Food of the Gods" and fearlessly and without any sense of fatigue hacking through the English back in the day, I guess doping is just part of history. So while it is BS to those of us that ride on pan y agua, I say stop distracting me from the battle and just let them dope, it's their body their choice. We allow women to murder babies, might as well allow pro athletes to use the Earth's resources and the latest science to push the limits of their bodies. they still suffer, just while riding a lot faster.
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Old 06-29-18, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ct-vt-trekker View Post
I've watched every single TDF since the early 80s but I'm joining the boycott, if they allow Froome to race this year's TDF then I'm not watching any more.
Actually i'm also waiting before I renew my NBC Gold subscription until it's decided. If Froome's in, no renewal. Maybe I'll convert to some other sport even though cycling has been the only sport I have followed in decades.
I haven't gone that far yet (I have given up on NFL due to the Patriots, so I get what you're saying). I still like watching for the spectacle and scenery. Every once in a while some exciting racing breaks out too.

Froome is making the Lance mistake IMO. Going back to the well too many times.
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Old 06-30-18, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Cog_wild View Post
...So here is my take on all the TUEs....there is no way to establish what brings one with a condition up to par. The meds unfairly catapult the users ahead. These rescue inhalers artificially dilate the bronchial passages and allow the users to race wide open and "unfiltered". When Froome was coughing, it was BC he had puffed so much he had overridden his the natural ability of his body to regulate air intake. He probably inhaled a contaminant and it went straight into his lungs repeatedly. Make sense? So he coughed it out. When you have real asthma you can't come close to a cough...
This reminds me of the question I had when all this first came out and that is: Do these inhalers dilate the bronchial passages beyond normal?

The way I see it (but I could be wrong) is that these inhalers only dilate the bronchial passages to a point of normality, but can't open them any further, thereby only giving a sufferer of asthma normal breathing, but would be useless in someone that does not suffer from asthma.

Secondly, from what I understand is that it's impossible for anyone to have such a high level of salbutamol in their system without taking via injection or orally. And when that's done the drug has a whole different effect, i.e. one that enhances performance. So in other words, this talk about inhalers is a complete distraction.
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Old 07-01-18, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Cog_wild View Post
...just like the Viking Berserkers tripping on Psilocybin "Food of the Gods" and fearlessly and without any sense of fatigue hacking through the English back in the day, I guess doping is just part of history...
There's no evidence the Berserkers had access to psilocybin mushrooms. For years there was a theory that some viking warriors used amanita muscaria mushrooms which were known to have a psychoactive effect, but the effect was generally calming or sedative with some trance or hallucination in some people. But more recent research casts doubt on either mushrooms or alcohol being used by Berserkers. The more recent theory points to henbane, nightshade, mandrake and other plants.

But the most likely intoxicant was simply fear, anger and tribal ritual and the effect of psychological bonding against an enemy. This has proven to be at the root of many recent worldwide instances of particularly brutal attacks and war crimes. When interviewed and interrogated most participants didn't blame or cite alcohol or drugs. They got caught up in the fever of the moment and fed off the infectious rage of their military cohorts.

We allow women to murder babies, might as well allow pro athletes to use the Earth's resources and the latest science to push the limits of their bodies. they still suffer, just while riding a lot faster.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, other than the compulsion to interject nonsequiturs about one's pet issues. One of my longtime Facebook contacts and I will be discussing some of our common interests in art, literature, movies, etc., and suddenly out of nowhere he's ranting about commies. I just assume it's a tic or like a sneeze in the middle of an otherwise enjoyable conversation. So I treat it like a sneeze and say "Bless your heart," in the traditional Texas style. He doesn't seem put off by my sarcastic retorts to his tics and I'm not put off enough by those off topic interjections to unfriend him since we have so much else in common.
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Old 07-01-18, 06:25 AM
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Froome ‘blocked from signing in to Tour de France’ over unresolved drug appeal


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...tour-de-france
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Old 07-01-18, 09:38 AM
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Yep, they are headed for a show-down. If he is allowed , I hope the riders protest "sit-down". KB.
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Old 07-01-18, 12:08 PM
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Old 07-01-18, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post

Froome ‘blocked from signing in to Tour de France’ over unresolved drug appeal


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...tour-de-france

At the risk of asking a very stupid question, what the hell is taking UCI so long, anyway?
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Old 07-01-18, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by one4smoke View Post
+1
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Old 07-01-18, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
At the risk of asking a very stupid question, what the hell is taking UCI so long, anyway?
From Cycling news "Had it concerned a low-key rider, the case would have been resolved a long time ago. It could have been solved by Froome himself, he only had to say: 'listen, I made a mistake in the dosage, I take cognizance of it, I make a public apology and I accept a penalty.' At the limit, the penalty could have been… I won't say negotiated, but adjusted, had Froome and his team been in good faith. On the other hand, they've taken the case purely on legal basis."

This appears to be the bottom line, political BS. I just hope they (ASO) can keep him out. KB
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Old 07-01-18, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kcblair View Post
From Cycling news "Had it concerned a low-key rider, the case would have been resolved a long time ago. It could have been solved by Froome himself, he only had to say: 'listen, I made a mistake in the dosage, I take cognizance of it, I make a public apology and I accept a penalty.' At the limit, the penalty could have been… I won't say negotiated, but adjusted, had Froome and his team been in good faith. On the other hand, they've taken the case purely on legal basis."

This appears to be the bottom line, political BS. I just hope they (ASO) can keep him out. KB
+1 SKY has made it very clear that the only way to serve a penalty on Froome is if every i is dotted and every t crossed That the penalty has survived every possible legal challenge at every possible level. So UCO and WADA are busy dotting and crossing. They are up against the wealthiest team in bike racing with the deepest resources. All this takes time. Sky says they want this resolved fast but they are doing their utmost to keep that from happening.

Ben
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Old 07-01-18, 05:46 PM
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The ban from the TdF doesn't surprise me, even if they believe Froome's positive test was an anomaly. The TdF organizers and fans have never really liked dominant champions. They seem to prefer spreading the glory around.

Even Merckx and Hinault caught some criticism toward the ends of their careers. I'm not sure Anquetil ever cared what the organizers and fans thought -- he seemed to have a mercenary attitude, realizing as a young man it's all about making the money while you can.

Banning Froome now might have been a mistake after his Giro performance. If they'd banned him earlier some fans would have shrugged and said "Meh, Sky and Froome are boring anyway, always playing it too safe." But after Froome's incredible recovery and dominance in the Giro, he could have been very good for the TdF this year, if they'd cleared up the drug thing earlier -- including just admitting it was a mistake in dosage, even if it wasn't.
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Old 07-02-18, 05:57 AM
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Well it's all academic now as WADA and the UCI have cleared Froome and dropped the case.

Won't stop the Froome haters though.
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Old 07-02-18, 06:13 AM
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Something just ain't right here....
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Old 07-02-18, 06:28 AM
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Yep, case solved. Money speaks. KB
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Old 07-05-18, 11:27 AM
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He's going to get some serious grief from the punters during this TdF
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Old 07-05-18, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Everyone keeps mentioning "inhalers", yet I remember hearing soon after this story broke that it was impossible to get such a high level of salbutamol in one's urine without injections (not inhalers). This can only mean that he received injections, a clear violation.

Has there been some change to this information?




.
+1

I wonder what countries , teams & riders are allowed
to enter the TdF & use PEDs

we know one rider & team on the list,
should post whole list.
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Old 07-05-18, 09:16 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post


Not sure what that has to do with anything, other than the compulsion to interject nonsequiturs about one's pet issues..
I put the knuckledragger right onto the ignore list.
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Old 07-06-18, 07:06 PM
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The fans need to deliver the public reality to the UCI. We will not accept teams that abuse rules. Excessive use of TUEs before and during Grand Tours for your GCs hopefuls is doping. Chris must be ostracized along with the team's management.

Other riders found above the limit for this drug have had results nullified, wins disallowed and served penalties. None, to my knowledge, were even close to the level Sky cheaters put into CF. Pettacchi, Ulissi, and many others (I haven't searched the list). Why is CF different?

Let the roadside deliver justice, and protest the rider's participation.
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70 Bottecchia Giro 'd Italia/70s Follis 072/72 Zeus Competition/75 Carabela SemiPro/78 Batavus Competition/80 Mondia Super/81 AustroDaimler Olympian/82 Harding(Holdsworth) Special/84 Pinarello Montello/85 EM Corsa Extra/86 DeRosa Pro/88 Falcon Race/99 Pinarello Cadore/99 Calfee TetraPro/03 Macalu Cirrus/04 Tallerico
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