Froome Out of TdF?
07-02-18, 06:45 PM
#76
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A few problems:
A) "Innocent until proven guilty" is a strictly US jurisprudence thing. Everywhere else it is the other way around. And even then assuming that formula...Lance was never actually caught via testing, the biggest doper name so far of this millennium. He only confessed on the High Court of Oprah.
That jurisprudence difference leads to
B) Varying standards and rules/laws worldwide
And then of course there'd the elephant in the room....
C) National racing bodies have no more vested interest in outing dopers than the UCI does....in fact being intranational they're probably even more easily bribe-able and corrupt than the UCI. Much like how the Russian Federation doped the entire Sochi Olympics they held---their entire national sporting body and government was in on it....hence their paper-tiger "ban" from the recent SK Olympics.
A) "Innocent until proven guilty" is a strictly US jurisprudence thing. Everywhere else it is the other way around. And even then assuming that formula...Lance was never actually caught via testing, the biggest doper name so far of this millennium. He only confessed on the High Court of Oprah.
That jurisprudence difference leads to
B) Varying standards and rules/laws worldwide
And then of course there'd the elephant in the room....
C) National racing bodies have no more vested interest in outing dopers than the UCI does....in fact being intranational they're probably even more easily bribe-able and corrupt than the UCI. Much like how the Russian Federation doped the entire Sochi Olympics they held---their entire national sporting body and government was in on it....hence their paper-tiger "ban" from the recent SK Olympics.
As far as Armstrong testing positive, there have been allegations made that he did test positive but because the UCI didn’t want the cat let out of the bag, it never was.
The general public will never know the entire truth, but what I would love to see, is serious emphasis placed on this situation. I want this great sport cleaned up to the point that in say, a decade, we will not wonder if riders are clean. We will know. Again, I’m fantasizing.
07-02-18, 06:53 PM
#77
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I didn't accuse you of being a Froome-hater but there have been lots of them here from before last year's Vuelta.
I disagree about Dumoulin, the peloton was already upping the pace approaching the climb when he ran into the field. The 'rule' about waiting for the leader jersey (pink in this case) is much misunderstood and didn't apply on that occasion. Dumoulin didn't make an issue of it at the time because he understood what happened.
I want to see a competitive Tour too and that's what it's going to be with the number one GT rider on the start line. There's no guarantee Froome will win but if he does people should give him credit. He's been accused in the past of that old chestnut 'he's just a wheel sucker' but proved in the Giro this year that he can win a mountain stage on his own.
Just saying if he was an American lots these F-H'rs would be booking flights to Paris for the end of the month in anticipation of another awesome win.
I disagree about Dumoulin, the peloton was already upping the pace approaching the climb when he ran into the field. The 'rule' about waiting for the leader jersey (pink in this case) is much misunderstood and didn't apply on that occasion. Dumoulin didn't make an issue of it at the time because he understood what happened.
I want to see a competitive Tour too and that's what it's going to be with the number one GT rider on the start line. There's no guarantee Froome will win but if he does people should give him credit. He's been accused in the past of that old chestnut 'he's just a wheel sucker' but proved in the Giro this year that he can win a mountain stage on his own.
Just saying if he was an American lots these F-H'rs would be booking flights to Paris for the end of the month in anticipation of another awesome win.
Someone hates Americans as much as some of us hate Froome....it appears. LOL!
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07-02-18, 06:59 PM
#78
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The reason I still have grudging admiration for Lance and Froome isn't because they won, cheating or not. They have something all champions have and it doesn't come in a syringe or inhaler: an indomitable spirit and ability to shrug off setbacks and rebound psychologically. Same thing I admired in boxers like Muhammad Ali and Evander Holyfield, an indomitable spirit and ridiculous amount of courage. Ali benefited from some questionable decisions, and Holyfield certainly used PEDs, but these didn't detract from their overall career accomplishments.
We mere mortals can't relate to that level of sheer stubbornness and ability to overcome exhaustion, pain and occasional defeats. That, even more than the cheating or allegations of cheating, is what really pisses us off because we can't relate to such an intangible factor as indomitable courage being the real key to victory.
The main reason I'm not a big fan of Froome is because he doesn't dominate stages like Merckx, doesn't drive the field with a dominating personality like Hinault, isn't as cocky and exciting to watch as Armstrong, isn't as graceful and resilient as LeMond, lacks the savoir faire of Anquetil, and, despite having one of the most proficient team machines in history, usually manages to make races boring. And he's awkward and gangly, like a pterodactyl on a bicycle.
But dammit, after watching Froome choking back tears after crashing early in the Giro, then sucking it up, rebounding and dominating in the mountains and actually making it exciting... what the heck. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until there's more definitive proof of cheating.
We mere mortals can't relate to that level of sheer stubbornness and ability to overcome exhaustion, pain and occasional defeats. That, even more than the cheating or allegations of cheating, is what really pisses us off because we can't relate to such an intangible factor as indomitable courage being the real key to victory.
The main reason I'm not a big fan of Froome is because he doesn't dominate stages like Merckx, doesn't drive the field with a dominating personality like Hinault, isn't as cocky and exciting to watch as Armstrong, isn't as graceful and resilient as LeMond, lacks the savoir faire of Anquetil, and, despite having one of the most proficient team machines in history, usually manages to make races boring. And he's awkward and gangly, like a pterodactyl on a bicycle.
But dammit, after watching Froome choking back tears after crashing early in the Giro, then sucking it up, rebounding and dominating in the mountains and actually making it exciting... what the heck. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until there's more definitive proof of cheating.
07-02-18, 07:29 PM
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While not generally binding on sports organizations, this principle is hardly unique to the US. We inherited it from English Common Law (in fact the phrase is attributed to an English lawyer (Sir Garrow), but similar ideas had been expressed centuries earlier in France and other countries). The Romans expressed the concept as "Proof lies on him who asserts, not on him who denies" under their legal code back in the 2nd century and it has been widely held in numerous civilizations, although certainly not all. The UN adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948 which includes "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence."
07-03-18, 01:11 AM
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more.. https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/44690324
Chris Froome says he is expecting "confrontation out on the road" at this year's Tour de France,
despite his anti-doping case being dropped.
Froome said he had urine thrown at him during the 2015 Tour, and he was booed by fans when passing through rival Romain Bardet's home region last year.
and these are the descendants of those who had fought 300 year wars..
Chris Froome says he is expecting "confrontation out on the road" at this year's Tour de France,
despite his anti-doping case being dropped.
Froome said he had urine thrown at him during the 2015 Tour, and he was booed by fans when passing through rival Romain Bardet's home region last year.
and these are the descendants of those who had fought 300 year wars..
07-03-18, 02:06 AM
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I agree that rules are rules, but in this case, Albuterol/Salbutamol gave no advantage to the rider, other than to bring his breathing capacity up to his normal level. From what I have read, he apparently took puffs from his inhaler after the stage and before the doping control, with his doctor's advice. In my view, it would be very easy to exceed the limit with a few extra inhalations. "When you can't breathe, nothing else matters" as the American Lung Assoc. used to say!
I am a very long time user of this inhaler, which, contrary to what Canklecat says, is very effective in emergency, but is not for prevention. Corticosteroids are used for that and for relief of severe asthma attacks. That is why I am far more suspicious of Wiggins' use of Triamcinolone, which is a corticosteroid, while than I am of Froome and Albuterol, which is not..
Last edited by Artmo; 07-03-18 at 02:14 AM. Reason: Afterthought
07-03-18, 05:38 AM
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So does this now mean that WADA will change its criteria on salbutamol testing? And what about the other riders already punished for "high" salbutamol levels? What's going to happen with future riders with higher levels of salbutamol in their system?
BTW, I'm not a Froome hater, my angst is with all the governing bodies.
BTW, I'm not a Froome hater, my angst is with all the governing bodies.
Last edited by work4bike; 07-03-18 at 05:49 AM.
07-03-18, 08:31 AM
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Hopefully the head of the UCI who leaked the information about Froome's test will resign.
I'd love to see a little more transparency with the actual data from this case. However, the whole thing stinks of being handled improperly.
I'd love to see a little more transparency with the actual data from this case. However, the whole thing stinks of being handled improperly.
07-03-18, 09:45 AM
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It more stinks of "OMG we have yet another TdF many-times-tested champion caught on a violation--please dear god WTF can we do to cover it up and make it go away quietly with no one noticing!?"
07-03-18, 12:35 PM
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But, not enough data was actually provided to make a valid conclusion.
07-03-18, 01:58 PM
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Froome and “Team Asthma” will continue to cheat and win ! Sky simply has to much money and control much like the Lance years and his sponsors ! Once Froome retires or goes away, and is not making big money for cycling, “they” will come down hard on him ! Until then, “ Team Asthma” simply has the best Team Chemistry !
07-04-18, 06:07 AM
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This is a pretty damning article on the sport of cycling. Really no defending, especially since the UCI won't release the evidence that they used to exonerate Froome.
https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a22...e3195e9e5e3ecd
https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a22...e3195e9e5e3ecd
It’s hard to imagine any other pro cyclist getting this kind of free pass. In fact, we don’t have to imagine it. During the 2014 Giro d’Italia, racer Diego Ulissi returned a salbutamol test that was remarkably similar to Froome’s. He was battling a respiratory infection, as Froome claimed he was during the Vuelta. Ulissi used a salbutamol inhaler and, as a two-time stage winner, had been tested at least twice prior to Stage 11. (As overall leader from Stage 3 on, Froome was tested 19 times at the Vuelta). Ulissi’s third test showed almost the same amount (1,900ng/mL) as Froome’s Vuelta test (2,000ng/mL).
Although he was in nearly the exact same circumstances as Froome, Ulissi was forced to do the study. Quelle surprise: It didn’t replicate his test-day results, and Ulissi was handed a nine-month ban.
Although he was in nearly the exact same circumstances as Froome, Ulissi was forced to do the study. Quelle surprise: It didn’t replicate his test-day results, and Ulissi was handed a nine-month ban.
07-04-18, 08:01 AM
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Money talks, whether you're in sport or in business. What else is new?
Doesn't mean Froome did anything wrong, just that having the resources to fight a case makes it more likely you will get a favourable outcome.
Anyway, the haters will continue to hate as they have been doing since before the 'adverse finding'.
Doesn't mean Froome did anything wrong, just that having the resources to fight a case makes it more likely you will get a favourable outcome.
Anyway, the haters will continue to hate as they have been doing since before the 'adverse finding'.
07-04-18, 08:19 AM
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So, we have a single number that has been released.
Where is this 1500 page document?
Where is the rest of his data including Creatinine, Specific Gravity, and the hundreds or thousands of other tests he has taken?
Did he take an extra puff because he was having breathing difficulty?
So, perhaps the big conclusion here is that other cyclists have been treated unfairly for similar issues. Does that mean that we need to perpetuate the problem?
Where is this 1500 page document?
Where is the rest of his data including Creatinine, Specific Gravity, and the hundreds or thousands of other tests he has taken?
Did he take an extra puff because he was having breathing difficulty?
So, perhaps the big conclusion here is that other cyclists have been treated unfairly for similar issues. Does that mean that we need to perpetuate the problem?
07-04-18, 09:55 AM
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Can't say I have many good ideas to be honest and I'm sure you have the intellect to comprehend sarcasm. I love this sport. I hate cheating. I follow this sport religiously every year whether there are American riders or not. I lost all respect for Armstrong and everyone else on that team who broke the rules and many other riders were cheating as well. My favorite riders are sometimes non-American. I absolutely loved Sean Kelly and Stephen Roche for example. I may not be a huge Froome fan, but I don't hate on him and I don't harbor any resentment because he was born in Africa or races with a British license.
You can say what you want. I'm neither misreading nor imagining the troll's who try and stir up controversy with Americans on some forums. American fans do the same thing. It's just human nature.
I want to see a very competitive Tour de France regardless of who wins. I have my favorites, but I don't hate on any of them. I only hope we see typical sportsmanship and not attacks on contenders when they stop to relieve themselves as was the case with Dumoulin in the Giro. Just like doping, attacking the leader in a mountain stage when he is out for a brief minute is unsportsmanlike imo. Waiting on the race leader due to a mechanical or such used to be the unspoken protocol. Riders want to win so badly now, sportsmanship and even their long term health doesn't seem to matter. It's a sad situation, again imo.
I strongly dislike very few people and only if I know them. I try hard to not discriminate for any reason. Please voice your own opinion. As long as we remain respectful, we all have that right.
You can say what you want. I'm neither misreading nor imagining the troll's who try and stir up controversy with Americans on some forums. American fans do the same thing. It's just human nature.
I want to see a very competitive Tour de France regardless of who wins. I have my favorites, but I don't hate on any of them. I only hope we see typical sportsmanship and not attacks on contenders when they stop to relieve themselves as was the case with Dumoulin in the Giro. Just like doping, attacking the leader in a mountain stage when he is out for a brief minute is unsportsmanlike imo. Waiting on the race leader due to a mechanical or such used to be the unspoken protocol. Riders want to win so badly now, sportsmanship and even their long term health doesn't seem to matter. It's a sad situation, again imo.
I strongly dislike very few people and only if I know them. I try hard to not discriminate for any reason. Please voice your own opinion. As long as we remain respectful, we all have that right.
Kelly tested positive in 1984 & 88 Cyclist Sean Kelly comments on his doping positives - Sticky Bottle
Stephen Roche while never testing positive certainly has a cloud over his career owing to his and his Carerra team's association with Professor Francesco Conconi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephe...Alleged_doping
Welcome to reality.
07-04-18, 10:07 AM
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Indurain tested positive for Salbutamol in 1994. He also worked with Prof. Conconi as did his team Banesto https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...g-1379584.html
Kelly tested positive in 1984 & 88 Cyclist Sean Kelly comments on his doping positives - Sticky Bottle
Stephen Roche while never testing positive certainly has a cloud over his career owing to his and his Carerra team's association with Professor Francesco Conconi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephe...Alleged_doping
Welcome to reality.
Kelly tested positive in 1984 & 88 Cyclist Sean Kelly comments on his doping positives - Sticky Bottle
Stephen Roche while never testing positive certainly has a cloud over his career owing to his and his Carerra team's association with Professor Francesco Conconi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephe...Alleged_doping
Welcome to reality.
Not specific to cycling for sure, but the down side to human nature was the intent John Lennon had when he wrote “Imagine”? I can hope for the best. I’ve already accepted the fact it will never be a reality. Viva Le Tour!
07-04-18, 01:55 PM
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C) National racing bodies have no more vested interest in outing dopers than the UCI does....in fact being intranational they're probably even more easily bribe-able and corrupt than the UCI. Much like how the Russian Federation doped the entire Sochi Olympics they held---their entire national sporting body and government was in on it....hence their paper-tiger "ban" from the recent SK Olympics.
07-04-18, 01:58 PM
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Interesting perspective on the action taken by WADA/UCI...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UOGgBy_gk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UOGgBy_gk
07-04-18, 02:08 PM
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A little off-topic, but not completely
Team Sky releases Chris Froome's data from key points of Giro d'Italia victory | VeloNews.com
So Froome aims to lose weight whilst riding a grand tour, and yet somehow doesn't bonk....
Team Sky releases Chris Froome's data from key points of Giro d'Italia victory | VeloNews.com
So Froome aims to lose weight whilst riding a grand tour, and yet somehow doesn't bonk....
07-04-18, 03:47 PM
#97
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This is a pretty damning article on the sport of cycling. Really no defending, especially since the UCI won't release the evidence that they used to exonerate Froome.
https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a22...e3195e9e5e3ecd
https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a22...e3195e9e5e3ecd
07-04-18, 03:52 PM
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07-04-18, 05:48 PM
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https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/more-details-of-chris-froomes-successful-salbutamol-defence/#disqus_thread