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EF + Rapha & Non Traditional Races

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Old 10-10-18, 07:31 AM
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EF + Rapha & Non Traditional Races

This makes me excited to see riders like Phinney and the rest of EF squad possibly take on events like Dirty Kanza, Red Hook, Transcontinental, Grinduro etc. I think it's brilliant and makes total sense. Great squad to do it too.

EF Education First X Rapha
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Old 10-11-18, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Hmmm View Post
This makes me excited to see riders like Phinney and the rest of EF squad possibly take on events like Dirty Kanza, Red Hook, Transcontinental, Grinduro etc. I think it's brilliant and makes total sense. Great squad to do it too.

EF Education First X Rapha
American cycling needs to start winning on the pro circuit and that's where I believe they should concentrate their efforts. All that other stuff is just sideline fluff that will likely make the team worse on the pro circuit. It will just spread them thin and be waste of effort. Sorry, but nobody cares about a Grinduro winner or remembers who the last Dirty Kanza winner was, or likely even knows what the heck the Dirty Kanza is. They care about TDF winners and Classics winners. And right now we have nobody that can win a Monument, or even be competitive in one, and we have no Grand Tour threats either. We have no sprinters, and maybe one or two decent climbers and maybe a couple of very average TT riders. We are a huge country of domestiques, while tiny countries like Australia, Great Britain and tiny Eastern European countries that I can't find on a map produce winners. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. This is what needs to change if Americans are going to once again care about cycling.

As you can see, I am down on American cycling right now, and sideshows like this by an American team give me the appearance that they have given up on winning on the pro circuit. Guess Ill check the map and find a rider from Khazikstan or Estonia to root for because they will likely produce a winner before we do.

But I'm approaching 60 years old now and maybe I no longer have any idea what sells these days, so excuse my curmudgeon rant and don't take it personally. So good luck in Red Hook. Its a very nice neighborhood these days...

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Old 10-11-18, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
American cycling needs to start winning on the pro circuit and that's where I believe they should concentrate their efforts. All that other stuff is just sideline fluff that will likely make the team worse on the pro circuit. It will just spread them thin and be waste of effort. Sorry, but nobody cares about a Grinduro winner or remembers who the last Dirty Kanza winner was, or likely even knows what the heck the Dirty Kanza is. They care about TDF winners and Classics winners. And right now we have nobody that can win a Monument, or even be competitive in one, and we have no Grand Tour threats either. We have no sprinters, and maybe one or two decent climbers and maybe a couple of very average TT riders. We are a huge country of domestiques, while tiny countries like Australia, Great Britain and tiny Eastern European countries that I can't find on a map produce winners. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. This is what needs to change if Americans are going to once again care about cycling.

As you can see, I am down on American cycling right now, and sideshows like this by an American team give me the appearance that they have given up on winning on the pro circuit. Guess Ill check the map and find a rider from Khazikstan or Estonia to root for because they will likely produce a winner before we do.

But I'm approaching 60 years old now and maybe I no longer have any idea what sells these days, so excuse my curmudgeon rant and don't take it personally. So good luck in Red Hook. Its a very nice neighborhood these days...
Nobody in the US cares about european races either. Gaimon is more famous now that he's "retired" and is famous on strava and IG. Rapha's market is not really the wannabe pro anymore, its the Cat 6 rider trying to look cool at the group ride.
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Old 10-11-18, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
American cycling needs to start winning on the pro circuit and that's where I believe they should concentrate their efforts. All that other stuff is just sideline fluff that will likely make the team worse on the pro circuit. It will just spread them thin and be waste of effort. Sorry, but nobody cares about a Grinduro winner or remembers who the last Dirty Kanza winner was, or likely even knows what the heck the Dirty Kanza is. They care about TDF winners and Classics winners. And right now we have nobody that can win a Monument, or even be competitive in one, and we have no Grand Tour threats either. We have no sprinters, and maybe one or two decent climbers and maybe a couple of very average TT riders. We are a huge country of domestiques, while tiny countries like Australia, Great Britain and tiny Eastern European countries that I can't find on a map produce winners. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. This is what needs to change if Americans are going to once again care about cycling.

As you can see, I am down on American cycling right now, and sideshows like this by an American team give me the appearance that they have given up on winning on the pro circuit. Guess Ill check the map and find a rider from Khazikstan or Estonia to root for because they will likely produce a winner before we do.

But I'm approaching 60 years old now and maybe I no longer have any idea what sells these days, so excuse my curmudgeon rant and don't take it personally. So good luck in Red Hook. Its a very nice neighborhood these days...
Americans overwhelmingly don't have a clue about EU monuments or classics either. Unpaved road events have much more of a cult following than even pavement here. When was the last time you heard about an amateur road race needing to hold a lottery for 2,000 start-line spots, because it was too popular for itself? How about never. Period. Never. I'd be very surprised if it ever happened in US history....only RAGBRAI comes to mind--but that isn't a race.


And EU road racing for their part is barely treading water. They can't keep sponsors, and teams go bust regularly, their model can barely keep races afloat....and are struggling to find some formula that will get people to even watch the last 50km of a cycling race. Go and watch Paris-Tours this year, very interesting race---because they put in a many miles of vineyard backtrack MMR. Grand Tours for their part are only tourism-porn, because generally there is never any actual racing until maybe 30km to go.
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Old 10-11-18, 02:47 PM
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Ah the old "if it's not in New York no one knows about it". Haven't seen that one in a while. Brings back memories.
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Old 10-11-18, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Nobody in the US cares about european races either.
They did when Lemond and Armstrong were over there WINNING. They were excited when Team 7/11, Team Postal and Discovery were competitive and looked like Sky does today. There were more American flags than French flags on the side of the road in the TDF back then as well.

Americans love a winner and will not continue to watch when smaller nations, or tiny ones even, continue to kick our butts and produce winners while we play domestique to them and go pretty much unseen somewhere deep in the peloton. We need a standout personality, a bigger than life-type that will catch our imaginations again and be competitive. Win and they will come back.

And if Rapha cares more about the Cat 6 rider, they have no place being in the pro circuit. We need an American team that thinks big, employs American riders, that replicates Team 7/11 and wants to win, not create a pro team to compete with amateurs or be another quasi American team like BMC.
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Old 10-11-18, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
They did when Lemond and Armstrong were over there WINNING. They were excited when Team 7/11, Team Postal and Discovery were competitive and looked like Sky does today. There were more American flags than French flags on the side of the road in the TDF back then as well.

Americans love a winner and will not continue to watch when smaller nations, or tiny ones even, continue to kick our butts and produce winners while we play domestique to them and go pretty much unseen somewhere deep in the peloton. We need a standout personality, a bigger than life-type that will catch our imaginations again and be competitive. Win and they will come back.

And if Rapha cares more about the Cat 6 rider, they have no place being in the pro circuit. We need an American team that thinks big, employs American riders, that replicates Team 7/11 and wants to win, not create a pro team to compete with amateurs or be another quasi American team like BMC.
Which is the problem. No one stays a winner forever. See it with the local NCAA handegg team--dumping tens of millions of USD into trying to re-ignite the glory days of handegg winning #1 from 20 years ago, with private donors forking over the millions of cash (overnight) to pay coach's severance 3 times now....spoiler alert...it hasn't happened, and likely won't. Meanwhile fans are still fans in spite of...well....as of now an 0-5 season including losses to teams never lost to before, probably would have been 0-6 were it not for a game cancelled due to weather.

What sponsors in America would back a road team...given that no sponsors ever have come out ahead economically from title sponsorship? Even road cyclists barely watch road racing. And road racing, in general in the US, is on the out....which is in part a USACycling problem...meanwhile gravel racing is ascendent in the extreme here.

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Old 10-11-18, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
They did when Lemond and Armstrong were over there WINNING. They were excited when Team 7/11, Team Postal and Discovery were competitive and looked like Sky does today. There were more American flags than French flags on the side of the road in the TDF back then as well.

Americans love a winner and will not continue to watch when smaller nations, or tiny ones even, continue to kick our butts and produce winners while we play domestique to them and go pretty much unseen somewhere deep in the peloton. We need a standout personality, a bigger than life-type that will catch our imaginations again and be competitive. Win and they will come back.

And if Rapha cares more about the Cat 6 rider, they have no place being in the pro circuit. We need an American team that thinks big, employs American riders, that replicates Team 7/11 and wants to win, not create a pro team to compete with amateurs or be another quasi American team like BMC.
This is straight up delusional to expect this to happen again in the short term. Even in the long term the chances are slim to none, it took a cheater to catch American's attention, betting on that again is a hail mary.
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Which is the problem. No one stays a winner forever. See it with the local NCAA handegg team--dumping tens of millions of USD into trying to re-ignite the glory days of handegg winning #1 from 20 years ago, with private donors forking over the millions of cash (overnight) to pay coach's severance 3 times now....spoiler alert...it hasn't happened, and likely won't. Meanwhile fans are still fans in spite of...well....as of now an 0-5 season including losses to teams never lost to before, probably would have been 0-6 were it not for a game cancelled due to weather.

What sponsors in America would back a road team...given that no sponsors ever have come out ahead economically from title sponsorship? Even road cyclists barely watch road racing. And road racing, in general in the US, is on the out....which is in part a USACycling problem...meanwhile gravel racing is ascendent in the extreme here.
exactly, they see the writing on the wall and are at least trying to adapt to the times, the old sponsorship model is dying.
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Old 10-11-18, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
This is straight up delusional to expect this to happen again in the short term. Even in the long term the chances are slim to none, it took a cheater to catch American's attention, betting on that again is a hail mary.

exactly, they see the writing on the wall and are at least trying to adapt to the times, the old sponsorship model is dying.
Short term? Team 7/11 started in 81 and finished in 96. That's a long time ago. How much time do we need to bring a semblance of that back?

And they've been saying pro cycling is dead from the day it began. Its still here.
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Old 10-11-18, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
Short term? Team 7/11 started in 81 and finished in 96. That's a long time ago. How much time do we need to bring a semblance of that back?

And they've been saying pro cycling is dead from the day it began. Its still here.
More than any US sponsor is willing to spend money/time-wise. Pro-cycling sponsorship in the traditional sense is dying for sure. Quickstep won almost 100 races this year and just got title sponsorship for next year. Cannondale-Drapac(EF) had to crowdfund just to stay alive last year.
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Old 10-11-18, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
Short term? Team 7/11 started in 81 and finished in 96. That's a long time ago. How much time do we need to bring a semblance of that back?

And they've been saying pro cycling is dead from the day it began. Its still here.
It is? How many professional American teams are there? Heck, how many pro races are there in the USA--and how empty are the roads they ride on? If there was an American race scene--you wouldn't be here harping on the need for a winning American team getting wins to popularize the sport.

What is needed...is firstly cyclists...then we need racing cyclists....then we need people interested in sponsoring teams. 2 of those 3 things, we basically do not have, not on the road. It is why any amateur road race you will barely find enough entries for a field to race--meanwhile on gravel events you have hundreds turn out even in the most god awful of weather
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Old 10-11-18, 08:15 PM
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I'm not looking to be argumentive, but I am frustrated with the state of cycling in America.

It seems to me we have given up on proper road racing because we refuse to compete. The rest of the world seems to be doing fine in the pro peloton, but not us. We refuse to play by the rules Europe has rightly created for there sport and now we're taking our bikes and going home to ride in something called the Red Hook Crit. We now lean towards sophomoric X Game nonsense which is nothing but a flash in the pan. It might give us instant gratification but it won't have any staying power or make history and it'll be good for a couple of years before the next great thing comes along. In other words, its disposable entertainment, unlike true European road racing that has been with us for over a century and will be around long after America has left the sport.

I'd just like to see us get serious about road cycling again. Even as "troubled" as the pro cycling model is, its far better than an obscure crit race in Brooklyn.
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Old 10-12-18, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
I'm not looking to be argumentive, but I am frustrated with the state of cycling in America.

It seems to me we have given up on proper road racing because we refuse to compete. The rest of the world seems to be doing fine in the pro peloton, but not us. We refuse to play by the rules Europe has rightly created for there sport and now we're taking our bikes and going home to ride in something called the Red Hook Crit. We now lean towards sophomoric X Game nonsense which is nothing but a flash in the pan. It might give us instant gratification but it won't have any staying power or make history and it'll be good for a couple of years before the next great thing comes along. In other words, its disposable entertainment, unlike true European road racing that has been with us for over a century and will be around long after America has left the sport.

I'd just like to see us get serious about road cycling again. Even as "troubled" as the pro cycling model is, its far better than an obscure crit race in Brooklyn.
I appreciate your response and I get it, you want American's to win in the TdF, which is odd to me that you chose to derail this thread with your thirst for American winners when EF has riders from 13 nationalities. Their top riders/hope for wins being Uran, Woods, Vanmarcke, & Modelo, all who are not American (Ok, I do wish for a Phinney Roubaix win and Howes in the Ardennes). Only 6 out of the 27 riders on the team are American. First and foremost they are a cycling team with no obligation to fostering and hiring American talent. If they were obligated, they would have signed riders like Sepp Kuss, Neilson Powless, and maybe even Tj Eisenhart along with other promising young American riders. Maybe your passionate nationalist cycling fandom anger should be aimed at USA Cycling and lobbying for support for young riders the way Belguim supports their young riders.

I also disagree with "The rest of the world seems to be doing fine in the pro peloton" because as a non European country, I think the US is doing just fine, just don't compare us to Colombia.

As I said, EF-Drapac is first and foremost a cycling team, which is a marketing tool for the brands that put their names on the team. As people have stated in this thread, gravel racing is experiencing a surge with participants, especially in the US. The Red Hook crit is far from obscure and long distance races like the Transcontinental are gaining in popularity. EF might be the first pro team to take this approach, but many other forms of sponsorship dollars are choosing these routes. Look at an ex continental athlete like Gus Morton who is supported by Specialized and Rapha among others. He goes from riding for a month off the grid in Newfoundland making a film, right into Red Hook, then right into Eroica Italy.

The way sponsors can maximise their exposure is changing, and relying on just wins in major cycling races isn't the smartest way to get the best bang for your buck. I applaud EF and Rapha for this move and can't wait to watch along next year.
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Old 10-12-18, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Hmmm View Post
I appreciate your response and I get it, you want American's to win in the TdF, which is odd to me that you chose to derail this thread with your thirst for American winners when EF has riders from 13 nationalities. Their top riders/hope for wins being Uran, Woods, Vanmarcke, & Modelo, all who are not American (Ok, I do wish for a Phinney Roubaix win and Howes in the Ardennes). Only 6 out of the 27 riders on the team are American. First and foremost they are a cycling team with no obligation to fostering and hiring American talent. If they were obligated, they would have signed riders like Sepp Kuss, Neilson Powless, and maybe even Tj Eisenhart along with other promising young American riders. Maybe your passionate nationalist cycling fandom anger should be aimed at USA Cycling and lobbying for support for young riders the way Belguim supports their young riders.

I also disagree with "The rest of the world seems to be doing fine in the pro peloton" because as a non European country, I think the US is doing just fine, just don't compare us to Colombia.

As I said, EF-Drapac is first and foremost a cycling team, which is a marketing tool for the brands that put their names on the team. As people have stated in this thread, gravel racing is experiencing a surge with participants, especially in the US. The Red Hook crit is far from obscure and long distance races like the Transcontinental are gaining in popularity. EF might be the first pro team to take this approach, but many other forms of sponsorship dollars are choosing these routes. Look at an ex continental athlete like Gus Morton who is supported by Specialized and Rapha among others. He goes from riding for a month off the grid in Newfoundland making a film, right into Red Hook, then right into Eroica Italy.

The way sponsors can maximise their exposure is changing, and relying on just wins in major cycling races isn't the smartest way to get the best bang for your buck. I applaud EF and Rapha for this move and can't wait to watch along next year.
Sorry if you think I derailed this thread. I just thought EF Drapac was an American team and should support American cyclists like Cofidis supports French riders . Silly me!

Well, you guys enjoy the Happy Kwanzaa Crit and the Dirty Larry Race or whatever they're called. Should be a blast! 😇
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Old 10-12-18, 10:10 AM
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Old 10-12-18, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
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Respect your elders sonny, because wherever your going, we've already been...😊
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Old 10-13-18, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
Sorry if you think I derailed this thread. I just thought EF Drapac was an American team and should support American cyclists like Cofidis supports French riders . Silly me!

Well, you guys enjoy the Happy Kwanzaa Crit and the Dirty Larry Race or whatever they're called. Should be a blast! 😇
I do hope you know the difference between a pro conti team and a world tour team.

Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
Respect your elders sonny, because wherever your going, we've already been...😊
Except Red Hook and Kanza right?

Sorry couldn't help myself. I appreciate the comments, and am surprised by your opinion. I think it's an interesting debate. I've recently sold my road race bike and purchased a 'cross bike. It will be fun to follow EF through different race events and see how they hold up outside of the Pro Peloton. I know that Alex Howes and Joe Dombrowski have been doing Leadville 100 for a couple years now. How great would it be to see Mike Woods at the Red Bull Bay Climb - Funny enough Phil Gaimon just posted a video of himself there.

Welp see you and the EF boys at Tracklocross nationals next year then Giacomo Or is it better we meet at Crusher in the Tushar?
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Old 10-13-18, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Hmmm View Post
I do hope you know the difference between a pro conti team and a world tour team.



Except Red Hook and Kanza right?

Sorry couldn't help myself. I appreciate the comments, and am surprised by your opinion. I think it's an interesting debate. I've recently sold my road race bike and purchased a 'cross bike. It will be fun to follow EF through different race events and see how they hold up outside of the Pro Peloton. I know that Alex Howes and Joe Dombrowski have been doing Leadville 100 for a couple years now. How great would it be to see Mike Woods at the Red Bull Bay Climb - Funny enough Phil Gaimon just posted a video of himself there.

Welp see you and the EF boys at Tracklocross nationals next year then Giacomo Or is it better we meet at Crusher in the Tushar?
Definitely an interesting topic, and I think it shows the generational differences. I admit to being a traditionalist in most things and a bit of a nationalist. I certainly appreciate the skills I see from other countries, its just that I like to see us compete well on the world stage and right now, in cycling, we are not. I really should write to USA Cycling and give them a piece of my mind (I'm sure they would enjoy that!)but maybe they need to hear from us.

I'm not sure what positives these off- beat races brings to American cycling, or if it matters if Phinney wins in Brooklyn. I think it would matter far more if he won Paris-Roubaix or a stage in the TDF, but that's just my old school way of thinking I guess.

By the way, I've been to Red Hook many times in my life( I live close by) and never saw a bike race. Heck, BITD, you would never have ridden your bike through that terrible neighborhood! Now they hold a bike race there! Never thought I would live to see that! So PM me when the crit is on and we can meet up. Ill let you school me in the finer points of X Game style cycling!
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Old 10-16-18, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo 1 View Post
Definitely an interesting topic, and I think it shows the generational differences. I admit to being a traditionalist in most things and a bit of a nationalist. I certainly appreciate the skills I see from other countries, its just that I like to see us compete well on the world stage and right now, in cycling, we are not. I really should write to USA Cycling and give them a piece of my mind (I'm sure they would enjoy that!)but maybe they need to hear from us.

I'm not sure what positives these off- beat races brings to American cycling, or if it matters if Phinney wins in Brooklyn. I think it would matter far more if he won Paris-Roubaix or a stage in the TDF, but that's just my old school way of thinking I guess.

By the way, I've been to Red Hook many times in my life( I live close by) and never saw a bike race. Heck, BITD, you would never have ridden your bike through that terrible neighborhood! Now they hold a bike race there! Never thought I would live to see that! So PM me when the crit is on and we can meet up. Ill let you school me in the finer points of X Game style cycling!
Ok. If I'm in NYC on Red Hook weekend we'll go. If you're in Paris, let's watch the TdF from the Tuileries together, it's fun. In the meantime. I thought this GCN video was an interesting insight into Red Hook and why people are into it.

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