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Lance Armstrong-- What's Normal?

Old 05-20-19, 11:23 AM
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Lance Armstrong-- What's Normal?

Fascinating podcast-- Lance Armstrong talking with professor Roger Pielke Jr about natural testerone levels with respect to the X-Y runner case, Caster Semenya, who some believe should not run as a woman.

theforwardpodcast.libsyn.com/roger-pielke-jr
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Old 05-20-19, 11:35 AM
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Inb4 thread is moved.
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Old 05-20-19, 11:59 AM
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The wrap up about the related issue concerning the prevalence of doping in sport discusses some interesting numbers-- e.g., finding... 50%

But… the catch rate? 1%
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Old 05-20-19, 12:02 PM
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Old 05-20-19, 12:02 PM
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Ibtm/l
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Old 05-20-19, 12:03 PM
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Maybe...we'll see.
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Old 05-20-19, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
The wrap up about the related issue concerning the prevalence of doping in sport discusses some interesting numbers-- e.g., finding... 50%

But… the catch rate? 1%
It sounds a little like the numbers of people on the freeway speeding at any given moment. In my area, ~98%. The number getting ticketed once per year or more, probably 1 or 2 percent.

Doesn't mean the 1 or 2 percent are innocent, or don't deserve to be ticketed. Just that there's an ungodly amount of discretion involved in deciding who does get prosecuted.
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Old 05-20-19, 12:18 PM
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There seems to be a lot of standalone issues of interest, all jammed into this single matter of a generational athlete, ethics, justice, law enforcement... a lifetime ban, like in the instance of Lance where he cannot even compete in an Ironman event because cycling is involved.
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Old 05-20-19, 12:21 PM
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Or you can simplify it down to, "Lance broke the rules, therefore he's guilty." It's not a very sophisticated POV, but it's completely accurate statement of fact and can't be disproven.
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Old 05-20-19, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
Or you can simplify it down to, "Lance broke the rules, therefore he's guilty." It's not a very sophisticated POV, but it's completely accurate statement of fact and can't be disproven.

Exactly. We can all make excuses, or appeals to context, such as 'well everyone in that era was doping.' But the fact of the matter is that he broke the rules. Further, he cheapened the sport, screwed those who were NOT doping (assuming there were any), and made it more difficult for clean athlete to break into the elite ranks. Any appeal from him or on his behalf should not be framed as an appeal for leniency (or that there should have been...), but that all athletes should be held accountable, and not just one.

A case can be made that his individual decision should not be judged too harshly..., as in damn him as an individual and a bad person, that he was doing what he had to do to remain competitive. But he still was not competing in what the sport classified as cycling, and therefore any punishment he received was more than warranted. He clearly did not want to follow cycling rules. Therefore he clearly should not be allowed to be a cyclist.
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Old 05-20-19, 03:00 PM
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The Semenya case is interesting. Armstrong less so.
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Old 05-20-19, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
There seems to be a lot of standalone issues of interest, all jammed into this single matter of a generational athlete, ethics, justice, law enforcement... a lifetime ban, like in the instance of Lance where he cannot even compete in an Ironman event because cycling is involved.
He switched to gravel.

http://mountaingoatadventures.com/fo...esults2017.pdf


-Tim-
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Old 05-20-19, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
We’ve been told gravel is the FUTURE. Is this proof?
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Old 05-20-19, 05:42 PM
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IMO this is just more of the normal sexism. If they want to put an upper limit on testosterone for women, they should also do it for men. Which is not a simple solution, because what should the level be? 1.2 X average? I.e. it's all BS. High testosterone is also known as talent.

The only interesting thing about the Lance thing is that most TdF winners since I don't know when were known and sometimes self-admitted dopers. That's all been sort of hushed-up by the authorities by focusing on Lance, as though shorn of Lance, the sport's history is sanitized. Not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping...Tour_de_France
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Old 05-20-19, 06:59 PM
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The additional nuances here though is that it's her genes that result in higher testosterone levels (entirely natural for her) -- higher than other women (which she is) -- but, not higher than any male... that and, the possible fixes fix which for her are to take drugs that arguably take-away her advantage relative to other females (which she is) or surgery to remove something she was born with. Or, of course, race against men (but, she's a woman). And then, if it's okay to just let it slide, should her competitors then be allowd to artificially supplement testosterone levels. And, that's interesting to think about when applied to cycling--e.g., similarly, what was LA to do if he wanted to win if 40-60% of his adversaries where doping...
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Old 05-20-19, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
The only interesting thing about the Lance thing is that most TdF winners since I don't know when were known and sometimes self-admitted dopers. That's all been sort of hushed-up by the authorities by focusing on Lance, as though shorn of Lance, the sport's history is sanitized. Not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping...Tour_de_France
Fav part of that article: "No winner after Armstrong disqualified. Six of the seven overall runners-up to Armstrong (all except Joseba Beloki in 2002) have either admitted to or been found guilty of doping." I often hear people talk about those Tours like Lance got one (or seven) over on a bunch of clean racers.
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Old 05-20-19, 07:35 PM
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The Semenya problem is that sex has categories, i.e., chromosomal male and female, but also has dimensions, e.g, sex hormone levels, genital anatomy, sexual preference, and identity. Understandably, we tend to classify people according to the categorical variable, which leaves the dimensions unaccounted for and troublesome. If you think it's bad for her, think about the millions of other people who don't fit their assigned gender and aren't elite athletes.
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Old 05-20-19, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
The Semenya problem is that sex has categories...

.
Sort of flies in the face of the reason why sports are categorized to begin with-- male or female...
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Old 05-20-19, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by seau grateau View Post
Fav part of that article: "No winner after Armstrong disqualified.
Pereiro was elevated to the 2006 win after Landis was disqualified.
Schleck was elevated to the 2010 win after Contador was disqualified.
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Old 05-21-19, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Sort of flies in the face of the reason why sports are categorized to begin with-- male or female...
I agree and it won’t be easy to parameterize them, but golf, sailing, and wrestling have sort-of done it.
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Old 05-21-19, 06:15 AM
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Let's keep it on topic with the female testosterone topic instead of Lance.

I say establish a "norm". If you're biologically your gender at present and from birth but happened to win the lottery, you still compete normally. But, records keeping has an asterisk set and a set without asterisks.

Maybe not the best idea, but it's all I've got.

It's ridiculous to force someone born the way they are that is actually clean to take drugs to normalize themselves.
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Old 05-21-19, 07:43 AM
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A lot of different angles--e.g., no one questions correcting vision (glasses, implants, surgery) to compete so... why not correct a testosterone deficiency with a little supplementation?

It would make as much sense as being told to take drugs to erase a competitive advantage resulting from a 1-in-a-million genetic aberration-- especially so if the anomaly is essentially nothing more than how you've come to think of yourself when it comes to your gender-assignment.

But then... isn't that the slippery slope... e.g., not seeing it as a big (illegal) leap to think you ought be able to even up things when all your competitors are doping?
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Old 05-21-19, 08:00 AM
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The fact is that this is a targeted hit on Caster Semenya

Have this condition as a man

no problem

Have this condition and want to compete in any women's event save the ones that Caster Semenya competes in no problem. IAAF is only going after mid distance woman's races, Soccer wrestling the 100m m the 5K curling ski racing ski jumping, The rule does not apply

The fact that she does not own the WR and in fact is not close. Most suspect the 1983 record was produced on the juice

Your country has its spy organization break in and swap samples

well the ban only applied to the country not the athletes formerly known as Russia

Rampant doping exists today and they feel the need to attack a woman whom is not cheating and force a medication for results that is not based on science. Because it is just fair? wtf

Perhaps we should have a beauty contest first before women are allowed to compete so we can all agree that our conception of what is a woman is met and then have them compete
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Old 05-21-19, 08:40 AM
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We could erase gender segregation altogether by simply changing the rules of the games that give those with greater strength and size a competitive advantage--e.g., golf could be limited to just putting greens.
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Old 05-22-19, 07:04 PM
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Seems easy to solve

drop drawers for judge and jury (and they can decide)

Or just stop having a men’s and women’s division. Have one race and everyone competes in the one class.
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