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Stage 8: Pforzheim - Gérardmer

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Stage 8: Pforzheim - Gérardmer

Old 07-09-05, 10:06 PM
  #176  
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You don't give up the yellow jersey to someone who's in contention.... If he would have given it to Vino that would have been a HUGE problem in the mountain stages...
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Old 07-09-05, 10:07 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Ok, to all those that think LA is trying to off load the Yellow Jersey, please 'splain to me why he followed Vino up to Moreau and Savoldelli up to Vino? Why didn't he let Vino go and take the jersey? If he's been saying for 2-3 days now that he wants to get rid of the jersey so bad that he's thinking about auctioning it off on ebay, why did he try to keep it today, when he had the perfect opportunity to lose it?

Poster walks away shaking head, mumbling to himself, "These guys are crazier than Rudy."

I sense you're not connecting the dots. LA wanted to lose the yellow jersey to a non-GC contending team who will work to hold it. Vino is a GC contender so he can't let that attack go.

Grasschopper has it right; all the potential GC attackers except Kloden were reeled in. Letting Kloden go is a calculated risk. He's looked bad until today, he doesn't TT as well, and he's a few minutes behind only one week into the tour.
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Old 07-09-05, 10:12 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by gcasillo
It's also interesting that Ullrich could not get a gap on Lance.
I don't know if I would use the word 'interesting' here as much as I would use the word 'expected'. With Ullrich's big gear pushing, it is hard for him to accelerate on the climbs. If Ullrich is going to put any time on Lance, he is going to ride him off his back after the other TMO guys put a hurt on him like today. That is how I see it FWIW.
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Old 07-09-05, 10:15 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Ok, to all those that think LA is trying to off load the Yellow Jersey, please 'splain to me why he followed Vino up to Moreau and Savoldelli up to Vino? Why didn't he let Vino go and take the jersey? If he's been saying for 2-3 days now that he wants to get rid of the jersey so bad that he's thinking about auctioning it off on ebay, why did he try to keep it today, when he had the perfect opportunity to lose it?

Poster walks away shaking head, mumbling to himself, "These guys are crazier than Rudy."
Why don't you go watch some bike racing so we don't have to explain the fundamentals to you

-murray
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Old 07-09-05, 10:16 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr
I don't know if I would use the word 'interesting' here as much as I would use the word 'expected'. With Ullrich's big gear pushing, it is hard for him to accelerate on the climbs. If Ullrich is going to put any time on Lance, he is going to ride him off his back after the other TMO guys put a hurt on him like today. That is how I see it FWIW.
well, despite the big gear and all. I am sure Jan is one of the riders that Lance isnt going to let go anywhere.
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Old 07-09-05, 10:17 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by JungleCat
LA wanted to lose the yellow jersey to a non-GC contending team who will work to hold it...Grasschopper has it right; all the potential GC attackers except Kloden were reeled in. Letting Kloden go is a calculated risk. He's looked bad until today, he doesn't TT as well, and he's a few minutes behind only one week into the tour.
Ah, what was I thinking. So, what non-GC contending team would you recommend he pass the jersey too? What rider would it be safe to pass it to to caretake it so Lance and the boys could have an easier ride? Perhaps Dario Frigo?

What am I doing here???
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Old 07-09-05, 10:25 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Ok, to all those that think LA is trying to off load the Yellow Jersey, please 'splain to me why he followed Vino up to Moreau and Savoldelli up to Vino? Why didn't he let Vino go and take the jersey? If he's been saying for 2-3 days now that he wants to get rid of the jersey so bad that he's thinking about auctioning it off on ebay, why did he try to keep it today, when he had the perfect opportunity to lose it?

Poster walks away shaking head, mumbling to himself, "These guys are crazier than Rudy."
Oh, come on, people! He's not going to give it away to just anybody. He'd have given it to Moreau if Vino hadn't run up Moreau's backside. He'll give it to anybody who isn't a GC contender, but the way these stages have played out, LA hasn't had an opportunity to do so. Blame (or praise) Vino's persistence.
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Old 07-09-05, 10:30 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr
I don't know if I would use the word 'interesting' here as much as I would use the word 'expected'. With Ullrich's big gear pushing, it is hard for him to accelerate on the climbs. If Ullrich is going to put any time on Lance, he is going to ride him off his back after the other TMO guys put a hurt on him like today. That is how I see it FWIW.
Yes, but if Ullrich had attacked, even attacking his teammate Vinokourov, it would have been a serious shetstorm. What would LA had done if Ullrich had attacked. He'd have been *****ed squarely. He would have had to cover Vino, Ullrich, and the inevitable counterattacks by a CSC team in force.

I'll reserve what I want to say about Ullrich until after Courcheval and Briancon.
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Old 07-09-05, 10:36 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Ah, what was I thinking. So, what non-GC contending team would you recommend he pass the jersey too?
Not Ullrich, Vino, Basso, Landis, Mayo, Leipheimer, Heras, or Botero for sure. (list not all inclusive)
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Old 07-09-05, 10:40 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by Gustaf
well, despite the big gear and all. I am sure Jan is one of the riders that Lance isnt going to let go anywhere.
You can bet on that.

Originally Posted by gcasillo
Yes, but if Ullrich had attacked, even attacking his teammate Vinokourov, it would have been a serious shetstorm. What would LA had done if Ullrich had attacked.
I don't know what he would have done, but I do know that it is going to be a lot more exciting than I had expected a couple of days ago, and that is a good thing no matter whom you are rooting for.
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Old 07-09-05, 11:45 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by zero
As far as the curved spokes go... the picture they take is not with a conventional camera.
There are two finish line cameras, with speeds of 2000 and 5000 frames per second. It is times like this that they are needed.

The difference between the first two riders was 19mm, according to the info supplied after the stage.
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Old 07-10-05, 12:16 AM
  #187  
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Now I find this to be extremely interesting:

From the ASO TdF Web site:

The official timing system has sensors on every bike in the race. The finish of today’s stage was so close that a photo had to be used to determine the winner. It’s difficult to tell if Pieter Weening’s tyre was ahead of Andreas Kloden’s but the timing system declared the Rabobank rider the winner. The winning time was just 0.0002 of a second!

I have been looking at the bikes, and the transponder - attached to the offside chainstay in all cases I have seen - does not look to be in exactly the same place on all bikes. I assume that to be due to clearances and stay shapes on the various bikes, and reasons known only to the team mechanics. But it does seem to beg the question "how much distance is the equivalent of 0.0002 seconds?"

And ... where is the transponder signal recorded relative to the finish line? It clearly crosses the finish line at a different time than when the photo is taken.
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Old 07-10-05, 12:40 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by gmason
Now I find this to be extremely interesting:

From the ASO TdF Web site:

The official timing system has sensors on every bike in the race. The finish of today’s stage was so close that a photo had to be used to determine the winner. It’s difficult to tell if Pieter Weening’s tyre was ahead of Andreas Kloden’s but the timing system declared the Rabobank rider the winner. The winning time was just 0.0002 of a second!

I have been looking at the bikes, and the transponder - attached to the offside chainstay in all cases I have seen - does not look to be in exactly the same place on all bikes. I assume that to be due to clearances and stay shapes on the various bikes, and reasons known only to the team mechanics. But it does seem to beg the question "how much distance is the equivalent of 0.0002 seconds?"

And ... where is the transponder signal recorded relative to the finish line? It clearly crosses the finish line at a different time than when the photo is taken.

0.0002 secs corresponds to 0.06mm at 60Kph... I would guess that the transponders have their own time base w.r.t to the receiver and hence the two might not have been in the same spot when they communocated to the receiver... But I think they would have engineered this thing to handle all of this...
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Old 07-10-05, 03:54 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by skinnyone
0.0002 secs corresponds to 0.06mm at 60Kph...
Last night they were saying 19mm. Today they are saying 9mm, which seems more realistic.
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Old 07-10-05, 05:56 AM
  #190  
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Clearly the main rivals are Ulrich (still), Kloden, and Vino. No word yet on Ivan Basso, although the *real* mountains haven't started yet. I think their goal is to in thattack, attack, then attack some more. Then keep attacking. Despite what everyone else says, I also don't believe that this year's Disc Team is "the strongest team ever". Last years Postal Team was better. What happend in the first mountain stage was indeed shocking. On such a gentle climb the entire team should have been ripping up that mountain like it was downhill. No excuses. They blew it. I hope they can regroup. Perhaps Lance will give up the jersey for a few days to relieve some of the pressure o his team and take it back when things actually get hilly.
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Old 07-10-05, 06:46 AM
  #191  
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Basso was right there on the hill with Vino, Jan and Lance...He, like Jan didn't attack but just hung with Lance.

Its too soon to say if this years Disc team is better or worse than last years USPS team. They had a bad day yesterday, but there really hasn't been any gauge to compare the teams (except that they both won the TTT)
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Old 07-10-05, 07:56 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr
Not Ullrich, Vino, Basso, Landis, Mayo, Leipheimer, Heras, or Botero for sure. (list not all inclusive)
Ok, I'm trying to watch a some bike racing like Murrays suggests so you folks don't have to keep 'splaining things, but I still have this question. Please bear with me.

You folks say that Discovery wants to offload the Yellow Jersey to some non-gc contending rider so that riders team will have to do the work of defending the jersey. There are people here who think Lance backed off in the opening TT to avoid wearing the Yellow Jersey. Why didn't Discovery back off in the TTT so Zabriskie would continue to wear the jersey? He is not a gc threat, which meets the requirements you folks are setting, and his team, which contains a gc threat would then have to do the work, accomplishing the double goal of giving Discovery a break and making a gc threat team tire themselves out defending that pesky yellow jersey that keeps following Lance around.

hot potato, hot potato. murrays?
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Old 07-10-05, 08:04 AM
  #193  
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Nice one Walter. Here's my take on it.

#1 USPS/Disc. Are 2 time defending Champs in the TTT, and Lance admittedly LOVES this race. So I can't see him "letting up" on this

#2 I don't think that Lance let up (at least not purposely on the ITT). Perhaps he unconcsiously let up after achieving the pass on Ullrich...but with a race that is SO tight like a 19km TT, there is no way he consciously help up to give DZ a 2sec win. DZ won that because he rode a better TT than LA did, and nobody should try to take that away from him.

#3 If Lance loses the Jersey today, it is not because he GAVE it away, its simply because they chose not to defend it against who they perceive to NOT be a threat in the overall. "Giving" it away to me, indicates a conscious plan to lose enough time to get rid of it.

Looks like Voit may end up with the Jersey which should make things interesting, although I don't necessarily believe that takes any pressure off Lance (as Phil and Paul believe). The attacks will still come, and the GC contenders will still try to take time away from Lance. Its not like Lance becomes invisible as soon as the Jersey is on someone else..
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Old 07-10-05, 08:21 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Bikeophile
Looks like Voit may end up with the Jersey which should make things interesting, although I don't necessarily believe that takes any pressure off Lance (as Phil and Paul believe). The attacks will still come, and the GC contenders will still try to take time away from Lance. Its not like Lance becomes invisible as soon as the Jersey is on someone else..
If Lance loses the Yellow today to Voight, and Rasmussen and Moreau are well placed in GC, I will then say that Discovery needs to start paying attention. These 3 are not Voeckler-type riders. They are all gc threats. I would have much preferred DZ wearing the yellow than Jens.

Off to watch some bike racing and learn something about this sport.
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Old 07-10-05, 08:31 AM
  #195  
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How many minutes do you suppose any of those guys would need on lance to matter in the final time trial?
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Old 07-10-05, 08:56 AM
  #196  
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Well, Moreau finished the first time trial within 4 seconds of the current world tt champion, Rodgers, and within seconds of former world tt champion Gonchar. Voight of course finished within a minute of LA in the opening tt.

Both Voight and Moreau can tt, Moreau is the better climber and all around rider and has consistently been tagged as a gc threat over the years. I think his highest finish was 5th overall.

Rasmussen is not as good a tt'r but he can climb, and has been groomed as a gc rider by Rabobank.

The thing is, today's events now make things more difficult for LA in that he has 3 more riders he and his team have to mark in addition to the tmobile tandem of ullrich, vino, and kloden, plus basso, mayo, heras, et al.

And voight could well surprise.
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Old 07-10-05, 09:07 AM
  #197  
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mayo and heras are non factors on GC, and if they go Basso and T Mobile need to mark them as well. I still don't buy into the Ullrich as a contender thing, and I suspect he's going to lose serious time on one of these HC climbs. just my opinion of course.

as for rasmussen, voight, and moreau; these guys will be marked by the other contenders as well. I think discovery played a good hand today though I'd have prefer them to keep the gap a little smaller.
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Old 07-10-05, 09:12 AM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
mayo and heras are non factors on GC,
Good to hear this.
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Old 07-10-05, 09:18 AM
  #199  
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i just think that they self regulate on teh climbs. they both got spit out on the hardest stages last year and neither can TT particularly well.

if somone is beating armstrong it's going to be basso or vino, I think at least. heras isn't winning the tour de france.
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Old 07-10-05, 11:31 AM
  #200  
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did you guys hear Sherwin do his Robbie McEwen impersonation?

funny
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