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Stage 9: Gérardmer - Mulhouse

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Stage 9: Gérardmer - Mulhouse

Old 07-10-05, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gmason
BTW - had Moreau not waited for Voigt when he had his flat, he just may have had the stage win himself. Hard to tell, but the delay cost him at least 10-15 seconds as I saw it. He was still riding, but slowly. At that, it took Voigt around 45 seconds to catch up.

It would have been close I think. It was in Moreau's best interest to wait also. It cost him some time by waiting for Voigt, but trying to go it along would have slowed him down (nobody to work with) which could have cost him even more time (who knows)...It was a win/win move I think. But regardless, there was no way Moreau could have gotten the win today. He finished more than 3 minutes behind Rasmussen.
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Old 07-10-05, 12:03 PM
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Lance's plan has been to stay ahead of Vinokourov, Ullrich and Basso, and let other folks do whatever they wish. That is probably a winning strategy, but one with risks. A guy like Kloden might have just one or two strong days in him, so letting him get ahead is not a problem. But, if a rider such as Kloden turns out to ride well for the rest of the Tour, letting him take a three or four minute lead is dangerous.

The problem is, Plan "B", chasing every rider, every day, is even a higher risk. Lance can not chase Kloden one day, and Voigt the next, and still have gas in the tank to chase Basso or Ullrich later in the week. So, Lance must make an assessment as to who will be in the "Top Three" on the morning of July 20th, stay ahead of those three fellas, and allow the "presumed" non-contenders ride on up the road.
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Old 07-10-05, 12:06 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by acrafton
Was this a grand strategy to neutralize Basso going intot the key climbs? Consider that now that CSC/Voigt is in Yellow, Basso cannot attack and try to take time out but now must work in support of Voigt - Bjarne Riis would not allow this and will make the whole team work to protect / support Voigt (much like they had to serve Zabriskie).

Thoughts?
Adam
Bob Roll commented today that CSC let Zabriskie down, by NOT supporting him (presumably when they left him in the TTT) - what are you basing your comments that CSC "had to serve Zabriskie" on?
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Old 07-10-05, 12:12 PM
  #54  
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They did protect him through the road stages, but didn't have to work nearly as hard as they would have if there were any hills on the stages that DZ had the Maillot Jaune.

Honestly I would not be surprised if Basso sits as the "last man" in support of Voigt, and then throws in an attack. I know its bad form, but so was leaving DZ alone with 1.5km to go on the TTT.
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Old 07-10-05, 12:18 PM
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LA had said immediately after the TTT that he would be willing to give up the yellow jersey, presumably to let the little guys duke it out for a few days and let Discovery rest up a bit. To get the yellow jersey that early in the race and keep it for the next 2.5 weeks would not be a good plan, I think. Once again, Lance will have to brute-force it through the mountains - as usual - to get the yellow jersey back. I still think Ulrich is history, however, and not really a serious contender. Could someone like Rasmussen or Basso show their strength in the mountains to come? Who are the dark horses that we have not heard about but will shine in the latter half of the Tour? It will be interesting.
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Old 07-10-05, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bikeophile
They did protect him through the road stages, but didn't have to work nearly as hard as they would have if there were any hills on the stages that DZ had the Maillot Jaune.

Honestly I would not be surprised if Basso sits as the "last man" in support of Voigt, and then throws in an attack. I know its bad form, but so was leaving DZ alone with 1.5km to go on the TTT.
Sucks big time that DZ couldnt make it... I would not be surprised if CSC lets Voight defend for himself... He isnt exactly a climber...
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Old 07-10-05, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by acrafton
Consider that now that CSC/Voigt is in Yellow, Basso cannot attack and try to take time out but now must work in support of Voigt - Bjarne Riis would not allow this and will make the whole team work to protect / support Voigt (much like they had to serve Zabriskie).
No. Of course Basso can still attack. CSC knows that there is no way that Voigt can win the Tour, but that Basso has a chance, and that is their main goal. They won't all work to support Voigt... that would be pointless, and terrible strategy.
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Old 07-10-05, 12:46 PM
  #58  
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David Zabriskie abandons Tour De France

Hello Folks,

Well it seems that after Davids crash, David has decided that his body is not up to the task of riding the remaining Tour and he has decided to abandon the Tour De France. It is disappointing to see that such a good rider is pulling out but I guess he knows he knows himself the best. He said that if it were up to him his next ride would be the worlds in Madrid Spain.

https://www.olntv.com/tdf/article/cat...=true&ss=video


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Old 07-10-05, 12:49 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by racingpain
It is disappointing to see that such a good rider is pulling out but I guess he knows he knows himself the best.
+1... TDF Forum??...
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Old 07-10-05, 02:21 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Bikeophile
.

Honestly I would not be surprised if Basso sits as the "last man" in support of Voigt, and then throws in an attack. I know its bad form, but so was leaving DZ alone with 1.5km to go on the TTT.
what are you talking about, they had no choice but to keep racing, they were neak in neak with discoverys time. What good could it have possibley done to wait for zabriskie and lose 30 seconds?
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Old 07-10-05, 02:22 PM
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agreed... with skinnyone...
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Old 07-10-05, 02:28 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by classic1
Rasmussen, I think that was probably the ride of 2005.
Amen. Away for 167 K. Just an awesome ride.
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Old 07-10-05, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ChAnMaN
what are you talking about, they had no choice but to keep racing, they were neak in neak with discoverys time. What good could it have possibley done to wait for zabriskie and lose 30 seconds?
Ok what GOOD did it do for Lance to Wait for Ullrich when he went over the into the ditch a couple years ago? The tour has a lot of tradition, which normally would include not leaving the Yellow Jersey less than 2km from the finish line.

I agree that it was in the Team's best interest to go on without DZ, but leaving 1 man behind (I NEVER SAID THAT THEY SHOULD ALL WAIT AS YOU IMPLIED) would not have cost them 30seconds over the last 1500meters, maybe another 5 or 6 seconds at the most which would have shown better "form" honoring the tradition of the yellow jersey.

If Basso beats Lance by 6 seconds for Yellow, then you can collect your "I told you so" from me then.
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Old 07-10-05, 03:07 PM
  #64  
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if it were Basso, and it had been earlier in the TTT they would have waited. DZ isn't Basso....jersey or no jersey
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Old 07-10-05, 03:08 PM
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Anyone know why Vino is where a different color kit than the rest of his team?
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Old 07-10-05, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueBikeRider
Anyone know why Vino is where a different color kit than the rest of his team?
Its his National Colours (he is National Champ from Khazakastan)
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Old 07-10-05, 03:12 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Bikeophile
Ok what GOOD did it do for Lance to Wait for Ullrich when he went over the into the ditch a couple years ago? The tour has a lot of tradition, which normally would include not leaving the Yellow Jersey less than 2km from the finish line.
You can't compare those two situations. They are WAY different.

Anyway, on a normal stage, no one waits at 2km from the finish.

Even if you tried to compare the two... Armstrong letting up in 2001 didn't hurt him at all. Tactically it was probably better to wait for him anyway. In the CSC case, all it would have done was slow the team down a little bit while providing absolutely no purpose or benefit.
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Old 07-10-05, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
if it were Basso, and it had been earlier in the TTT they would have waited. DZ isn't Basso....jersey or no jersey
If it had been earlier they would have waited for DZ also. He is a much better time trialist than Basso (or anyone on the team) so having him in the thick of things is a benefit to the team, regardless of Jersey

Like the TTT a couple years ago when I believe 3 USPS guys went down. The others waited, and wasted some serious time, but having everyone together helps the team helped them still do amazing,
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Old 07-10-05, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bikeophile
The others waited, and wasted some serious time, but having everyone together helps the team helped them still do amazing,
He has a point there... It might have been good for the morale... Not to say that CSCs would be down by any means...

Although in this situation there was very little distance to make up for lost time...
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Old 07-10-05, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dolomiti
You can't compare those two situations. They are WAY different.

Anyway, on a normal stage, no one waits at 2km from the finish.

Even if you tried to compare the two... Armstrong letting up in 2001 didn't hurt him at all. Tactically it was probably better to wait for him anyway. In the CSC case, all it would have done was slow the team down a little bit while providing absolutely no purpose or benefit.
Ok point taken. So what about when Lance crashed in 2003. Tyler and Jan held the pack up out of respect for the yellow. Lance got up, attacked and won the stage. So by respecting the yellow jersey and honoring tradition it essentially lost Jan the stage and perhaps the tour, but he still did it even with the GC as close as it was.
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Old 07-10-05, 03:53 PM
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you're really comparing apples and oranges. armstrong had waited for Ullirch on at least one other occassion when he crashed. you don't attack the yellow jersey when it crahes. had the situation been reversed I'm sure the lead group would have waited for ullrich.
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Old 07-10-05, 03:57 PM
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I agree. I just wish that CSC respected the yellow that DZ wore just a tiny bit. I just wish CSC left ONE person behind. It wouldn't have hurt them. Leave Giovanni Lombardi! I'm sure he wasn't driving the train over the last km.

Ok I've beat the dead horse enough...
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Old 07-10-05, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by racingpain
"i think ill do the vuelta hehehe just kidding" dave is just awesome.
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Old 07-10-05, 04:26 PM
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There is no way Voigt keeps 2:18 over Armstrong, as others have said he might not even keep it through the next stage. Guy is a great interview and can ride flats well but is no climber. Loved the interview though.
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Old 07-10-05, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper
...Voigt...is no climber.
Some of Jens accomplishments:

Victories TOUR MEDITERRANEEN (2.1) - 555 km 2005

No. 3 The Mountains Competition in Vuelta al Pais Vasco (PT) - 745 km 2005
A brief description of the course for this race:
The route will cover 28 mountain passes in its five stages and 764.5 kilometres.
The mountains include two Cat. 1's, 11 Cat. 2's and 15 Cat. 3's.
But as is in the case in Euskadi, a stretch of flat road is not often seen..

No. 4 Paris-Nice (PT) - 950 km 2005( One must be able to climb to do well in Paris-Nice.)

No. 5 Criterium International (2.HC) - 295 km 2005(Generally recognized as an early season test for the stage race riders. Includes significant climbing.)

Victories CRITERIUM INTERNATIONAL (2.1) - 300 km 2004

Victories THE MOUNTAINS COMPETITION IN VUELTA AL PAIS VASCO (2.HC) - 765 km 2004

Just curious, Grasschopper, how does a rider who is "no climber"(your words) win the Mountains Competition in the Vuelta Pais?

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