Justin Williams vs World Tour Sprinters
01-06-20, 02:02 AM
#26
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Don't care about the world tour, that's a whole nuther world. Justin is too old and in an era when teams are recruiting no older than early 20s, preferably younger. He had a shot at the development squad around 2010 and the under 23 Paris-Roubaix. Not sure what happened afterward, but that's better than many aspiring US cyclists do. He's pretty open about the experience here.
I just enjoy the videos of the Williams brothers and Legion dominating crits in their class when they're on form. It is its own thing and they do it very well. In the better bike-cam videos you can see and hear them calling out moves and watching everything that happens. There's a whole different mindset between the fray of urban crits and the European traditions. There doesn't necessarily need to be any crossover.
Justin's biggest win is being a team leader, kicking that door open and having a talented brother and team. That'll be good for the future of the sport.
I just enjoy the videos of the Williams brothers and Legion dominating crits in their class when they're on form. It is its own thing and they do it very well. In the better bike-cam videos you can see and hear them calling out moves and watching everything that happens. There's a whole different mindset between the fray of urban crits and the European traditions. There doesn't necessarily need to be any crossover.
Justin's biggest win is being a team leader, kicking that door open and having a talented brother and team. That'll be good for the future of the sport.
01-06-20, 10:17 AM
#27
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This thread is about how a USA amateur, now 30, who wins a lot after racing 90 min would do in a sprint against World Tour pros racing 5 hours a day, in some cases back to back.
The better discussion would be what open class USA road races he could win. His association with a color, or race has little to do with anything as we are looking at an individual and that person's performance. But for sake of argument...
Most kids, given the chance to be stars in a variety of sports, would not choose cycling. If you believe that, that means we don't really have an even sample to use for comparison. If there is $50M on the line then you might say, the best are showing up for that, but not so in cycling, where it might be so in the NFL, NBA or soccer.
Color is a weird competitive point. Different sports/events favor different attributes. These can be found in larger numbers in a variety of groups sliced by race, gender, age - many ways. A West African (lived there 4 years) vs East African (lived there 4 years too) are quite different in the types of sports they excel at. On average, I'd expect the sprinters from one region, and the long endurance from another - both are similar skin color. Skin color is the least interesting part of their make-up that would make them competitive World Tour type riders. I was not aware of any complaints of racism. I think, having seen JW race, he just is not a WT type racer. I wish WT races were shorter (I have a thread on that), but they are not. JW, from results and observations will not win those WT types of races, so he is not a WT rider.
The better discussion would be what open class USA road races he could win. His association with a color, or race has little to do with anything as we are looking at an individual and that person's performance. But for sake of argument...
Most kids, given the chance to be stars in a variety of sports, would not choose cycling. If you believe that, that means we don't really have an even sample to use for comparison. If there is $50M on the line then you might say, the best are showing up for that, but not so in cycling, where it might be so in the NFL, NBA or soccer.
Color is a weird competitive point. Different sports/events favor different attributes. These can be found in larger numbers in a variety of groups sliced by race, gender, age - many ways. A West African (lived there 4 years) vs East African (lived there 4 years too) are quite different in the types of sports they excel at. On average, I'd expect the sprinters from one region, and the long endurance from another - both are similar skin color. Skin color is the least interesting part of their make-up that would make them competitive World Tour type riders. I was not aware of any complaints of racism. I think, having seen JW race, he just is not a WT type racer. I wish WT races were shorter (I have a thread on that), but they are not. JW, from results and observations will not win those WT types of races, so he is not a WT rider.
I find it a little interesting that a lot of amateur cyclists would hold "World Tour" racers as some sort of ultimate cycling performance standard. Honestly, who in the world would have the hours to be able to train or to even race like those guys? I rather like to have a killer sprint like JW after a 90min race, that's something more realistic that a regular working Joe could actually train to do.
about the racism thing, I think it's real. Not a widespread thing at the amateur level in Socal, but over in Europe, I think so. Remember Allen Lim first brought over his rice cooker in the pro peloton in Europe, they made fun of him. Now of course them Europeans are lapping up rice like the best carbs out there.
01-06-20, 12:47 PM
#28
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The better question would be: How would a World Tour Sprinter do in a USA crit? Would they beat JW?
While I've been clear, I don't think JW would finish with the front in a WT race, I'd still have my money on him in a USA crit. Well, I'd have my money on a USA crit racer, if the idea is winning, vs sprinting.
Guess it depends on your definition. The only area I'm aware that opportunity is taken away in cycling is due to age, gender, and nationality and a wee bit based on not-having physical handicaps.
At the top...eyeballs and entertainment very much affect income/opportunity. So if you are good selling cooking wares, or shoes, you likely are making more than if you can't. The reasons why fewer people might buy what you are selling are many, but I think this has nothing to do with JW's path.
The primary reason JW could not win a WT sprint is he chose to focus on USA based races. If he chose to do WT length races, so much so he could complete them, if he is like 99% of athletes - he'd be slower. I doubt for him, it is any more complicated than that. JW has not been held back for anything other than his riding ability/style based on his focusing on an area that pays bonuses for winning, rather than a salary.
While I've been clear, I don't think JW would finish with the front in a WT race, I'd still have my money on him in a USA crit. Well, I'd have my money on a USA crit racer, if the idea is winning, vs sprinting.
...
about the racism thing, I think it's real. Not a widespread thing at the amateur level in Socal, but over in Europe, I think so. Remember Allen Lim first brought over his rice cooker in the pro peloton in Europe, they made fun of him. Now of course them Europeans are lapping up rice like the best carbs out there.
about the racism thing, I think it's real. Not a widespread thing at the amateur level in Socal, but over in Europe, I think so. Remember Allen Lim first brought over his rice cooker in the pro peloton in Europe, they made fun of him. Now of course them Europeans are lapping up rice like the best carbs out there.
At the top...eyeballs and entertainment very much affect income/opportunity. So if you are good selling cooking wares, or shoes, you likely are making more than if you can't. The reasons why fewer people might buy what you are selling are many, but I think this has nothing to do with JW's path.
The primary reason JW could not win a WT sprint is he chose to focus on USA based races. If he chose to do WT length races, so much so he could complete them, if he is like 99% of athletes - he'd be slower. I doubt for him, it is any more complicated than that. JW has not been held back for anything other than his riding ability/style based on his focusing on an area that pays bonuses for winning, rather than a salary.
01-06-20, 01:10 PM
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I don't see him. https://firstcycling.com/race.php?r=41&y=2010
But if we really like this, where is the money. How can a kid see raise-the-family money being a USA cyclist? Now, they can't.
You can see his "big race" Results here. These are pro-ish races for comparison. His best result is a 17th stage finish in 2011 for a Stage Race he DNF
@colombo357 - why was my saying he would not be there at mile 70 ridiculous?
No finish in 2009
2010 Finished Tour of Qatar 106 place.
2011 DNF Uruguay, 17th stage 1, 133 stage 2, DNF stage 3
Nothing 2012-2015
2016 DNF in Canada
2017 two DNFs
https://www.procyclingstats.com/ride...-williams/2008
You can see his "big race" Results here. These are pro-ish races for comparison. His best result is a 17th stage finish in 2011 for a Stage Race he DNF
@colombo357 - why was my saying he would not be there at mile 70 ridiculous?
No finish in 2009
2010 Finished Tour of Qatar 106 place.
2011 DNF Uruguay, 17th stage 1, 133 stage 2, DNF stage 3
Nothing 2012-2015
2016 DNF in Canada
2017 two DNFs
https://www.procyclingstats.com/ride...-williams/2008
Last edited by Doge; 01-06-20 at 01:13 PM.
01-06-20, 03:23 PM
#30
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Dunno, I haven't memorized Williams' record. Google around for Axel Merckx's U23 Development Team alongside Taylor Phinney. I seem to recall Justin rode the U23 Paris-Roubaix, but it's been awhile since I checked those stories.
I'm not arguing that he could have succeeded in the multi-stage pro tours. Obviously he didn't get the early start that prepared most riders for that kind of racing. Or an early start in comparable long distance high endurance sports that translate well to pro cycling -- as with Eric Hayden and Connie Carpenter.
It's a niche sport, expensive, a bit elitist, and few independents are successful. But he's done remarkably well in his niche, the US urban crit scene. It's a good start and with sponsors and appropriate support could regain some of the American audience and interest (and money) lost in the aftermath of the downfalls of Lance Armstrong and Floyd Landis.
I'm not arguing that he could have succeeded in the multi-stage pro tours. Obviously he didn't get the early start that prepared most riders for that kind of racing. Or an early start in comparable long distance high endurance sports that translate well to pro cycling -- as with Eric Hayden and Connie Carpenter.
It's a niche sport, expensive, a bit elitist, and few independents are successful. But he's done remarkably well in his niche, the US urban crit scene. It's a good start and with sponsors and appropriate support could regain some of the American audience and interest (and money) lost in the aftermath of the downfalls of Lance Armstrong and Floyd Landis.
01-07-20, 08:16 AM
#31
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The better question would be: How would a World Tour Sprinter do in a USA crit? Would they beat JW?
While I've been clear, I don't think JW would finish with the front in a WT race, I'd still have my money on him in a USA crit. Well, I'd have my money on a USA crit racer, if the idea is winning, vs sprinting.
Guess it depends on your definition. The only area I'm aware that opportunity is taken away in cycling is due to age, gender, and nationality and a wee bit based on not-having physical handicaps.
At the top...eyeballs and entertainment very much affect income/opportunity. So if you are good selling cooking wares, or shoes, you likely are making more than if you can't. The reasons why fewer people might buy what you are selling are many, but I think this has nothing to do with JW's path.
The primary reason JW could not win a WT sprint is he chose to focus on USA based races. If he chose to do WT length races, so much so he could complete them, if he is like 99% of athletes - he'd be slower. I doubt for him, it is any more complicated than that. JW has not been held back for anything other than his riding ability/style based on his focusing on an area that pays bonuses for winning, rather than a salary.
While I've been clear, I don't think JW would finish with the front in a WT race, I'd still have my money on him in a USA crit. Well, I'd have my money on a USA crit racer, if the idea is winning, vs sprinting.
Guess it depends on your definition. The only area I'm aware that opportunity is taken away in cycling is due to age, gender, and nationality and a wee bit based on not-having physical handicaps.
At the top...eyeballs and entertainment very much affect income/opportunity. So if you are good selling cooking wares, or shoes, you likely are making more than if you can't. The reasons why fewer people might buy what you are selling are many, but I think this has nothing to do with JW's path.
The primary reason JW could not win a WT sprint is he chose to focus on USA based races. If he chose to do WT length races, so much so he could complete them, if he is like 99% of athletes - he'd be slower. I doubt for him, it is any more complicated than that. JW has not been held back for anything other than his riding ability/style based on his focusing on an area that pays bonuses for winning, rather than a salary.
01-07-20, 12:02 PM
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racism exists in many shades of subtlety, sometimes it can come from higher ups, sometimes it can come from your teammates, or from the industry. For a minority person who doesn't have the outright undeniable talent, it's an uphill battle. I know this first hand in highschool and college. I went to Irvine High, and there was a this white guy who's pretty fast at the 400m, and he's touted as the next coming at the school and even in the OC Register and the local Irvine World newspaper. Then he got beaten by a few black dudes in a State meet, now suddenly they (I can't recall who) made excuses for the white kid like, "oh he's tired from football season", or "the other (black) boys were good because they trained hard and probably took easy classes in school" (when in reality the white kid was also barely getting by his classes, and in fact the football coaches had to petition the school counselor to allow him to take easy classes). Of course nobody who's white saw it as racism. I'm not black but a minority, and I was like "ugh, you white people just discredited a bunch black kids". It's that sort of mentality that I quite all "team sports" (football and track) at my school all together, and focused on academic, and glad I did because nobody is going to discriminate brain when America is in short of brain.
This thread is about an individual. One with a record racing over 12 years. Despite the groups he can be put in from race, to gender, to location, to income etc, JW has had the opportunity to be whatever kind of cyclist he wanted to be based on his ability. He raced in Europe and around the USA. He was not limited that I can see by anything but his natural ability and training. Now his natural ability may be suited better to certain types of events and there may be some common attributes with others in his race (race is defined by common attributes), but I reject his performance is due to anything but him. And he is great! He's also a real nice guy I've sat next to and chatted with on the curb of a crit and talked to at other times.
My main interest in this thread was that professional cycling is different than crit cycling.
The comparison is fantasy, and fun, but I am responding as I see it, which may be a buzz kill for some.
My post #3 or so said it simply, and while called ridiculous, was based on numbers posted on JW, not the groups he fell into, or opportunity or anything other than data posted for anyone to read and my personal time watching him race.
01-07-20, 01:20 PM
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Color is a weird competitive point. Different sports/events favor different attributes. These can be found in larger numbers in a variety of groups sliced by race, gender, age - many ways. A West African (lived there 4 years) vs East African (lived there 4 years too) are quite different in the types of sports they excel at. On average, I'd expect the sprinters from one region, and the long endurance from another - both are similar skin color. Skin color is the least interesting part of their make-up that would make them competitive World Tour type riders.
