Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

Tour of Poland crash

Old 08-06-20, 12:36 PM
  #1  
Danhedonia
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 74 Posts
Tour of Poland crash

Just surprised there is no thread here.

That was pretty terrible. I'm wishing that UCI would figure out better safety features. Those 'barriers' look like food processor blades for a speeding cyclist, if you ask me.
Danhedonia is offline  
Old 08-06-20, 03:54 PM
  #2  
Iride01
Hits [ENTER] b4 thinking
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,186

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91 Schwinn Paramount '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1995 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times in 597 Posts
This is one of the better video's I found of it. The people with the television rights to the race will probably make him take this down soon.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 08-06-20, 04:13 PM
  #3  
MaxKatt
TeeOhPea 2tha DeeOhGee
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Everywhere, All the time.
Posts: 102

Bikes: Several

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked 47 Times in 23 Posts
Looks like “winner” forced #2 into wall. I’d award win to wall guy who crashed across.
MaxKatt is offline  
Likes For MaxKatt:
Old 08-06-20, 05:09 PM
  #4  
Danhedonia
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 74 Posts
Just to update: Fabio Jakobsen is in critical condition. He had lifesaving surgery last night, and many are calling for Groenewegen to be banned for life. UCI made remarks that were strongly negative against Groenewegen immediately post-race, and his future is highly uncertain.

It was a bad racing move - I don't think there's much disagreement there (and Groenewegen apologized today, which is at least some admission of culpability).

My question is 'when will UCI stop this ridiculousness?' In the past decade, as a casual but enthusiastic fan, I have seen so much preventable danger simply permitted. And it doesn't even seem like tradition that's woven into the sport (like terrifying descents) - just dumbness.

Like having incredibly unsafe "barriers" immediately physically proximal to unprotected riders going 40+ mph. It IS called a 'tour,' is it not? Yet instead of having some padded, well protected barriers for the last km of every stage of every UCI World Tour event, we still see these body-destroying 'barriers.'

And what of the poor official who was hit, and was also seriously injured? Why are there STILL officials in harm's way?

UCI makes FIFA look disciplined and ethical.
Danhedonia is offline  
Old 08-06-20, 08:50 PM
  #5  
ooga-booga
lead on, macduff!
 
ooga-booga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: san diego (uni/normal heights), california
Posts: 5,843

Bikes: 85 pinarello treviso steel, 88 nishiki olympic steel. 95 look kg 131 carbon, 11 trek madone 5.2 carbon

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 872 Post(s)
Liked 919 Times in 508 Posts
some wisdom from a former sprinter known to mix it up back in the day...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mce...pologne-crash/
ooga-booga is online now  
Likes For ooga-booga:
Old 08-06-20, 09:15 PM
  #6  
ooga-booga
lead on, macduff!
 
ooga-booga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: san diego (uni/normal heights), california
Posts: 5,843

Bikes: 85 pinarello treviso steel, 88 nishiki olympic steel. 95 look kg 131 carbon, 11 trek madone 5.2 carbon

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 872 Post(s)
Liked 919 Times in 508 Posts
i don't think deegee specifically meant to force jakobsen's crash but he had to know it was a definite possibility by drifting that far over, pinching jakobsen and throwing a elbow for good measure.
even if jakobsen had grabbed two fistfulls of brakes at that point, he would have gotten rear-ended and likely crashed/run over by those immediately behind him.
heat of the moment actions and consequences reminds me a little of the bertuzzi hit on moore in hockey almost two decades ago. so flagrant and out of place that it transcended the usual "sporting" code/acceptible risks.
not a perfect match obviously because of the premediatation in the hockey circumstances but it was totally unnecessary. to see the actual flagrant assault, skip to the 2:50 mark.

if the sprinters were already miffy about "the rules" regarding sprints, they'll be even more unhappy because the uci will come down even harder on any irregularities in the near future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_B...the%20Canucks.


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...38D5B8B97EF335

at the very least, deegee should be unable to ride any more races this year. jakobsen may never race again. we unfortunately have a rider perish during race conditions
every few years or so. it is usually due to inattention, fatigue, mechanical failure...etc. trying to remember the last rider vs rider incident that resulted in retirement or worse
but nothing is coming to mind.

Last edited by ooga-booga; 08-06-20 at 09:30 PM.
ooga-booga is online now  
Old 08-07-20, 01:35 PM
  #7  
vane171
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 23 Posts
I defended Sagan in TDF when he was ousted immediately as it happened (and later, after TDF was long done with, that decision was reversed, simply acknowledging what I saw as mere TV watcher right away from replay in next fifteen minutes after the crash) but this time, I wouldn't stand behind the offender.

That was clear closing off of rider but done too late and brought way too far. Some apologies are totally misplaced in a case like this one and totally useless anyway. Only option Jakobsen might have had if in time, he would have swung a bit to the right to lean leftward and gain shoulder push momentum against the offender... but who would have thought that he wouldn't let up.

The officials should strongly consider a life ban, terrible as it is. Also the calls for barrier change of some sort is called for. How many time have we seen a rider getting caught on them by handlebar or a pedal, even without being pushed into them.

Even just strapping of continuous strip of plastic on them (with banners printed on it), some five feet wide and reaching all the way down to ground, at least in critical sections. Key word here is continuous, to make those separate barrier sections into one, solid enough to keep them in place, with continuous smooth surface. IMO that would be plenty enough, as long as it resists glancing collisions and prevents hookups into the bars. Some plastic like that needed here is already being used in advertising today.

Last edited by vane171; 08-07-20 at 01:45 PM.
vane171 is offline  
Likes For vane171:
Old 08-08-20, 10:51 AM
  #8  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3,621

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2201 Post(s)
Liked 1,262 Times in 758 Posts
I'm just catching up on this horror. Some of the blame has to go to the race organizers for designing a downhill sprint finish. If you see any of the videos in real time (rather than the slow motion ones), the horror increases. I think they were going 80 kph?

Not that this absolves Groenewegen in any way
MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 08-08-20, 11:13 AM
  #9  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3,621

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2201 Post(s)
Liked 1,262 Times in 758 Posts
Apart from Jakobsen, I haven't read of major injuries for any others, but some of them went down spectacularly, hard and fast. Who was it who did a flip over his bars after the line? That had to hurt. The major injuries could have been a whole lot worse.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 08-09-20, 11:02 PM
  #10  
Danhedonia
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 74 Posts
Well, the poor race official will likely never be the same again. Jakobsen's future health is not at all assured.

Groenewegen made a choice that, I agree, falls outside of "aggressive within the sport." He will have reckoning for a very long time to come.

And we get to the key question: can this be prevented, without altering the essence of bike racing? Well, yes, it can. UCI doesn't need downhill sprint finishes to keep the product exciting. And they certainly need to have better barriers built, period. Because athletes will have poor judgement, but you don't need to abet that with creation of further hazard.
Danhedonia is offline  
Old 08-10-20, 09:39 AM
  #11  
Iride01
Hits [ENTER] b4 thinking
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,186

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91 Schwinn Paramount '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1995 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times in 597 Posts
I wonder if gradual widening of the course from two hundred or so meters out to the finish line would be of any help. Give some more room to the cyclists as that pent up remaining energy gets blown away in just a few seconds.

When you save enough energy over the course of a race to sprint at the end, naturally people are going to do dumb things and people are going to take chances.

We see pro's leaving their line all the time in sprint finishes. Most of the time nothing remotely bad happens and nothing is said about it.
Iride01 is offline  
Likes For Iride01:
Old 08-12-20, 11:45 AM
  #12  
vane171
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 23 Posts
Problem lies in sport ethics. I am no care bear, elbowing in sprint or closing a rider in so that he doesn't pass under you in a road curve are OK, it is called smart riding, but it shouldn't turn into a virtual physical attack. Once somebody is pretty well on your side, it is too late to close him in and it is unsporting if you do it. In my books, that is a physical attack, same as if you pulled the rider in front of you by his dress or used your hand to push in to topple him on his side.

Like I watched cross country race where in the finish the leading skier didn't go in, for him, the shortest track to the finish line but went out of his way by stepping into the adjoining track where the other skier was in just behind him, thus making his path to the finish longer, because it meant the skier that threatened to pass him on that side then had to go around him.

Hypothetically, would it be acceptable on some narrow road for a team to line up side to side to completely close the road and slow down to a dawdle, when one or more their team members made an escape?

I mean, where are we, do we accept the win if that means not who is physically better, smart riding, at the end of the race but who dares to be more aggressive in sidelining or even muscling his opponents? For example, is it acceptable in automobile racing for you to keep swinging wildly from left to right side of the road, so as to prevent those behind you passing? That may be acceptable in some gladiator style sports (I believe some car races actually are like that) but not in sport as it should be nowadays, if we want to call it sport, not a show..

Last edited by vane171; 08-12-20 at 11:51 AM.
vane171 is offline  
Old 08-15-20, 05:11 AM
  #13  
csuperbike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 67
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 15 Posts
It’s racing. Things happen. I don’t think this video shows any intent to crash someone. It’s just hard racing. Quit being sissy’s.
csuperbike is offline  
Old 08-15-20, 07:27 AM
  #14  
one4smoke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 2,024

Bikes: 2020 Specialized Roubaix Comp SC - 2016 Specialized Roubaix SL4 - 2015 Giant Roam 2 Disc

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 587 Post(s)
Liked 198 Times in 143 Posts
Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
Problem lies in sport ethics. I am no care bear, elbowing in sprint or closing a rider in so that he doesn't pass under you in a road curve are OK, it is called smart riding, but it shouldn't turn into a virtual physical attack. Once somebody is pretty well on your side, it is too late to close him in and it is unsporting if you do it. In my books, that is a physical attack, same as if you pulled the rider in front of you by his dress or used your hand to push in to topple him on his side.

Like I watched cross country race where in the finish the leading skier didn't go in, for him, the shortest track to the finish line but went out of his way by stepping into the adjoining track where the other skier was in just behind him, thus making his path to the finish longer, because it meant the skier that threatened to pass him on that side then had to go around him.

Hypothetically, would it be acceptable on some narrow road for a team to line up side to side to completely close the road and slow down to a dawdle, when one or more their team members made an escape?

I mean, where are we, do we accept the win if that means not who is physically better, smart riding, at the end of the race but who dares to be more aggressive in sidelining or even muscling his opponents? For example, is it acceptable in automobile racing for you to keep swinging wildly from left to right side of the road, so as to prevent those behind you passing? That may be acceptable in some gladiator style sports (I believe some car races actually are like that) but not in sport as it should be nowadays, if we want to call it sport, not a show..
Wouldn't that be a hoot!
I'd love to see it happen just one time, and see the reaction of the other riders.
one4smoke is offline  
Old 08-15-20, 05:28 PM
  #15  
aclinjury
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 512
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by csuperbike View Post
Itís racing. Things happen. I donít think this video shows any intent to crash someone. Itís just hard racing. Quit being sissyís.
and I'll take the assessment of an ex-pro sprinter McEwen (link above) over your armchair.
aclinjury is offline  
Old 08-17-20, 12:03 PM
  #16  
csuperbike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 67
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 15 Posts
Might as well just end the race with 3km to go and have a no sprinting allowed rule and just coast from 3km to the finish
csuperbike is offline  
Old 08-19-20, 11:11 PM
  #17  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 12,670

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 142 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6065 Post(s)
Liked 926 Times in 528 Posts
A bit of idiocy but mostly sensible thoughts here.

there is definitely a line which can be drawn---it is a moving line, different in every situation but it is still a clear line.

In motor racing, a car has to have position---generally and driver needs to be about two-thirds ahead of another car---before s/he can squeeze This gives the other driver the option of slowing or crashing. Otherwise a driver has to leave a car's width on the outside for the other car---if the other driver is good enough to get by on the outside (or squeeze up the inside) without contact, great. Drivers are also allowed one move, and it cannot be reactive. That is, if a car is leading another towards a corner or down a straight, the driver has to pick a line and hold it. Weaving is not allowed. Also the driver in front cannot wait until the trailing driver makes a move and then move in response to block.

It is no different with cycling. We have all watched numerous replays of various sprint crashes, and we can usually tell---and agree---about which rider went too far. There is a line between defending a position and endangering another rider. Here Groenenwegen obviously squeezed over too late---Jakobsen was almost level and accelerating---and further threw an elbow (thought that might have been in part to balance.)

The answer is simple---ban riders for serious infractions. Fines mean nothing to professional athletes. If the UCI doesn't show that it is serious about safety, riders will take excessive risks. it is in their nature as competitors---but that nature can be curbed. Riders need to know that they will lose a couple seasons or a whole career if they cross the line from hard competition to dangerous aggression.

Regarding the barriers----UCI and ASO could spend some of the enormous money they earn on some sort of better barriers. Barriers could be made of heavy plastic, filled with water for weight, and linked the way concrete K-barriers are linked, with rebar loops, or with some sort of peg and loop system. What I have seen are that the older barriers, with the feet that stick out into the roadway, are being replaced, but the new barriers are mostly only good to help keep fans out of the road.

Having finishes on excessively wide roads wouldn't help unless the roads were pan flat and dead straight for the last kilometer at least. otherwise riders would enter on one side of the road or other, and the short route would be along the barriers---and riders will still try to block other riders even on a very wide road.Even if they were finishing on a filed half a kilometer wide, there could still be high-speed collisions and crashes. And very few cities---nowhere except airports---have roads that wide and straight.

The simplest solution is making sure riders ride appropriately for the conditions, and protect fellow riders. Heavily penalizing offenders might help that.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 08-20-20, 03:01 AM
  #18  
ooga-booga
lead on, macduff!
 
ooga-booga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: san diego (uni/normal heights), california
Posts: 5,843

Bikes: 85 pinarello treviso steel, 88 nishiki olympic steel. 95 look kg 131 carbon, 11 trek madone 5.2 carbon

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 872 Post(s)
Liked 919 Times in 508 Posts
Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
and I'll take the assessment of an ex-pro sprinter McEwen (link above) over your armchair.
mcewen had his share of run-in's over the years, didn't he? i'll listen to someone that always pushed the envelope but ultimately knew right from wrong.
ooga-booga is online now  
Old 08-20-20, 03:12 AM
  #19  
ooga-booga
lead on, macduff!
 
ooga-booga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: san diego (uni/normal heights), california
Posts: 5,843

Bikes: 85 pinarello treviso steel, 88 nishiki olympic steel. 95 look kg 131 carbon, 11 trek madone 5.2 carbon

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 872 Post(s)
Liked 919 Times in 508 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
A bit of idiocy but mostly sensible thoughts here.

there is definitely a line which can be drawn---it is a moving line, different in every situation but it is still a clear line.

In motor racing, a car has to have position---generally and driver needs to be about two-thirds ahead of another car---before s/he can squeeze This gives the other driver the option of slowing or crashing. Otherwise a driver has to leave a car's width on the outside for the other car---if the other driver is good enough to get by on the outside (or squeeze up the inside) without contact, great. Drivers are also allowed one move, and it cannot be reactive. That is, if a car is leading another towards a corner or down a straight, the driver has to pick a line and hold it. Weaving is not allowed. Also the driver in front cannot wait until the trailing driver makes a move and then move in response to block.

It is no different with cycling. We have all watched numerous replays of various sprint crashes, and we can usually tell---and agree---about which rider went too far. There is a line between defending a position and endangering another rider. Here Groenenwegen obviously squeezed over too late---Jakobsen was almost level and accelerating---and further threw an elbow (thought that might have been in part to balance.)

The answer is simple---ban riders for serious infractions. Fines mean nothing to professional athletes. If the UCI doesn't show that it is serious about safety, riders will take excessive risks. it is in their nature as competitors---but that nature can be curbed. Riders need to know that they will lose a couple seasons or a whole career if they cross the line from hard competition to dangerous aggression.

Regarding the barriers----UCI and ASO could spend some of the enormous money they earn on some sort of better barriers. Barriers could be made of heavy plastic, filled with water for weight, and linked the way concrete K-barriers are linked, with rebar loops, or with some sort of peg and loop system. What I have seen are that the older barriers, with the feet that stick out into the roadway, are being replaced, but the new barriers are mostly only good to help keep fans out of the road.

Having finishes on excessively wide roads wouldn't help unless the roads were pan flat and dead straight for the last kilometer at least. otherwise riders would enter on one side of the road or other, and the short route would be along the barriers---and riders will still try to block other riders even on a very wide road.Even if they were finishing on a filed half a kilometer wide, there could still be high-speed collisions and crashes. And very few cities---nowhere except airports---have roads that wide and straight.

The simplest solution is making sure riders ride appropriately for the conditions, and protect fellow riders. Heavily penalizing offenders might help that.
yes. deegee ban for a calendar year? the rest of the year? 6 months? lifetime ban?

do we consider this as serious as a drug offense and a two year ban? i do. this is nearly a worst-case scenario. thankfully, jakobsen is alive and recuperating altho we don't
know it he will be able to ride professionally again and at what level and how his quality of life may have been affected...both short and long-term. this is a milestone moment
for the sport regarding the discipline meted out. deegee's veering that far off his line without road debris/stalled team car/bad pavement/downed rider/loose dog/etc in front of him
makes me think a 6 month ban is sufficient but the subsequent crash/injury makes me think two years ban is warranted. a 6 month ban would give sprinters (and all riders) pause
before pulling nonsense such as this but a two year ban (improper riding + direct consequences collision/injury-or worse) would eliminate it entirely. safety first.

Last edited by ooga-booga; 08-20-20 at 03:17 AM.
ooga-booga is online now  
Old 08-20-20, 07:25 AM
  #20  
aclinjury
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 512
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
A bit of idiocy but mostly sensible thoughts here.

there is definitely a line which can be drawn---it is a moving line, different in every situation but it is still a clear line.

In motor racing, a car has to have position---generally and driver needs to be about two-thirds ahead of another car---before s/he can squeeze This gives the other driver the option of slowing or crashing. Otherwise a driver has to leave a car's width on the outside for the other car---if the other driver is good enough to get by on the outside (or squeeze up the inside) without contact, great. Drivers are also allowed one move, and it cannot be reactive. That is, if a car is leading another towards a corner or down a straight, the driver has to pick a line and hold it. Weaving is not allowed. Also the driver in front cannot wait until the trailing driver makes a move and then move in response to block.

It is no different with cycling. We have all watched numerous replays of various sprint crashes, and we can usually tell---and agree---about which rider went too far. There is a line between defending a position and endangering another rider. Here Groenenwegen obviously squeezed over too late---Jakobsen was almost level and accelerating---and further threw an elbow (thought that might have been in part to balance.)

The answer is simple---ban riders for serious infractions. Fines mean nothing to professional athletes. If the UCI doesn't show that it is serious about safety, riders will take excessive risks. it is in their nature as competitors---but that nature can be curbed. Riders need to know that they will lose a couple seasons or a whole career if they cross the line from hard competition to dangerous aggression.

Regarding the barriers----UCI and ASO could spend some of the enormous money they earn on some sort of better barriers. Barriers could be made of heavy plastic, filled with water for weight, and linked the way concrete K-barriers are linked, with rebar loops, or with some sort of peg and loop system. What I have seen are that the older barriers, with the feet that stick out into the roadway, are being replaced, but the new barriers are mostly only good to help keep fans out of the road.

Having finishes on excessively wide roads wouldn't help unless the roads were pan flat and dead straight for the last kilometer at least. otherwise riders would enter on one side of the road or other, and the short route would be along the barriers---and riders will still try to block other riders even on a very wide road.Even if they were finishing on a filed half a kilometer wide, there could still be high-speed collisions and crashes. And very few cities---nowhere except airports---have roads that wide and straight.

The simplest solution is making sure riders ride appropriately for the conditions, and protect fellow riders. Heavily penalizing offenders might help that.
well said, and this accident may not have happened if UCI took discipline seriously in the past.
aclinjury is offline  
Old 08-20-20, 09:56 AM
  #21  
Iride01
Hits [ENTER] b4 thinking
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,186

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91 Schwinn Paramount '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1995 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times in 597 Posts
Will we ban riders that leave their line and don't interfere with any other rider? If not, then it seems like we are penalizing only the violators that had the misfortune of having someone unknowingly come up on their side.

I'd think those in the lead sprinting all out are pretty oblivious to those rapidly coming up on their side from well behind or after having been already passed.

I'd think we'd have to be willing to disqualify any rider going outside the set limits whether it interfered with another or not. Maybe in some cases just a points, time or win disqualification and not necessarily a ban unless it was an injury to other.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 08-20-20, 11:58 AM
  #22  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 12,670

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 142 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6065 Post(s)
Liked 926 Times in 528 Posts
Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Will we ban riders that leave their line and don't interfere with any other rider? If not, then it seems like we are penalizing only the violators that had the misfortune of having someone unknowingly come up on their side.

I'd think those in the lead sprinting all out are pretty oblivious to those rapidly coming up on their side from well behind or after having been already passed.
This is simply not at all borne out by fact.

We have all seen riders leaning on each other, hitting each other with helmets, elbowing each other .... things a rider would not do it the rider didn't know another rider was nearby.

And it is not in fact in any way illegal not to hold a line if a rider is all alone on the road.

If people are not going to use facts and common sense, there cannot be sensible, fact-based discussion, and what's the point then?

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I'd think we'd have to be willing to disqualify any rider going outside the set limits whether it interfered with another or not. Maybe in some cases just a points, time or win disqualification and not necessarily a ban unless it was an injury to other.
The rules are designed to protect, not penalize riders. People who cannot understand that had best learn if they want a place in the conversation.

Anyone who knows any bike racers, or has listened to any interviews, or has any clue or information at all about how sprinters think ... they absolutely know who is around when they sprint. That's why they know when to throw up their hands in victory---or not---when they win or don't.

If sprinters had no idea when they were sprinting in packs, every bunch sprint would end in a massive pile-up.

Riders know this. A lot of sprinting is being able to ride ion the fine line between crashing and getting squeezed out, between pushing through and pushing too hard.

Sprinters absolutely know where other sprinters are around them. Did you think every time one sprinter has a slight lead and cuts off pursuers it is purely accidental? Have you every actually watched a sprint? have you ever listened to sprinters describe what they do?

Sorry, this is entirely nonsense.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 08-20-20, 02:27 PM
  #23  
Iride01
Hits [ENTER] b4 thinking
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,186

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91 Schwinn Paramount '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1995 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times in 597 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The rules are designed to protect, not penalize riders. People who cannot understand that had best learn if they want a place in the conversation.

Anyone who knows any bike racers, or has listened to any interviews, or has any clue or information at all about how sprinters think ... they absolutely know who is around when they sprint. That's why they know when to throw up their hands in victory---or not---when they win or don't.

If sprinters had no idea when they were sprinting in packs, every bunch sprint would end in a massive pile-up.

Riders know this. A lot of sprinting is being able to ride ion the fine line between crashing and getting squeezed out, between pushing through and pushing too hard.

Sprinters absolutely know where other sprinters are around them. Did you think every time one sprinter has a slight lead and cuts off pursuers it is purely accidental? Have you every actually watched a sprint? have you ever listened to sprinters describe what they do?

Sorry, this is entirely nonsense.
Why would you write all that just to say you wrote nonsense?

I still think there can be changes done to the course that might minimize such occurrences and when ever such changes can be made for safety, they should be used over just making punishing someone for doing something that wouldn't have been wrong in no one got hurt.

Since typically on course where it is expected that a large group with arrive for the sprint finish then we know everone will suddenly be trying to get to the finish line first. So that course that is five or so bikes wide seems like it should get wider when within 300 meters of the finish so more riders can do what the do now. Jam themselves up in there trying to get to the line. But with more room, they'll not have to take as much chance squeezing by the fence and other rider.

While I do agree there needs to be some enforcement and maybe changes to race rules. I can't see just making rules just to be making rules. Punishing people hasn't done a thing other than to make others feel good.

Last edited by Iride01; 08-20-20 at 02:31 PM.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 08-23-20, 02:23 PM
  #24  
vane171
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 23 Posts
The other day on YT bike race video, I've seen barriers that are flat all the way down to ground and with only flat feet jutting into the road. They probably have longer feet on the spectator side to keep them stable. I shudder when I see those barrier feet that at a foot height start arching out and down into the roadway...

Some interlocking (to prevent a barrier section flying like we've seen in this accident), even if just dry zip strips or plastic ties would be probably sufficient if the barriers were covered by a continuous strip of some tough material - like that one used on political voting banners on people's front lawns, the one with air channels between the two faces... that is quite tough material as everybody knows who tried to dispose of it after the elections

All barriers around a course should not have feet that stick out and interlocking and covering them could be reserved just for the finish line, last couple hundred meters or even one hundred...
vane171 is offline  
Old 08-23-20, 06:50 PM
  #25  
csuperbike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 67
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 15 Posts
There is a difference between bicycle racing and auto racing. If the cyclist falls his body is physically going to hit the ground at high speed roughly 50 or so mph in the sprint. Some of the movements are for self protection as much as anything. It’s not always blocking as it may appear. The racers are risking it when sprinting. That’s part of it. Bobke has spoke about dangers in the sprint (I have not heard his thoughts on this incident).
csuperbike is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.