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What's it gonna take for Sagan?

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What's it gonna take for Sagan?

Old 09-23-20, 04:48 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I was a little puzzled by Sagan during this TdF. Not to take anything away from Bennett or Ewan, who simply had better tactics and kicks on some stages.

But a few times it looked to me like Sagan sat up and eased up just short of the line and let the opponent go. It's hard to read or second guess him. Maybe he knew he didn't have the kick and didn't want to waste energy, or had some other strategy. But a few times (after losing points to being relegated) it sure looked like he wasn't really trying despite being within range.
I found myself thinking the same thing, but I think the perception we have of them from video is a bit misleading. There have been a number of times in a close sprint to the line I’ve questioned the winner pulling up and celebrating right at the line where it looked as though it was way premature and could’ve cost him the win. Especially the straight on shot when they’re coming toward you. I think part of it is that perception, and part of it is these guys know exactly how to judge the speed and momentum getting to the line first in relation to where the other riders are around them. It looks as if they’re giving up too soon, but they know when the pedal stroke, aerodynamics, momentum, etc... isn’t going to make a difference anymore.
At least, that’s what I think....
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Old 09-23-20, 04:56 PM
  #27  
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Another factor that I didn't realize until I checked all the stats, Sagan was still way ahead in peloton standings (not points) over Bennett, while Bennett may have pulled off the hat trick of being both the green jersey and in the running for the Lanterne Rouge.

So Bennett was struggling just to make the cut every stage, while Sagan was choogling away like a freight train, as usual. He was a step behind where milliseconds count, and as others noted seemed to lack his usual extrasensory perception for picking the right wheel to follow. Sagan was usually very close, while also seeming to be stronger and more consistent overall.

Anyway, this was one of the most interesting and exciting TdFs I can remember.
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Old 09-25-20, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Another factor that I didn't realize until I checked all the stats, Sagan was still way ahead in peloton standings (not points) over Bennett, while Bennett may have pulled off the hat trick of being both the green jersey and in the running for the Lanterne Rouge.

So Bennett was struggling just to make the cut every stage, while Sagan was choogling away like a freight train, as usual. He was a step behind where milliseconds count, and as others noted seemed to lack his usual extrasensory perception for picking the right wheel to follow. Sagan was usually very close, while also seeming to be stronger and more consistent overall.

Anyway, this was one of the most interesting and exciting TdFs I can remember.
GC doesn't count and is irrelevant for sprinters. For the green jersey it's about picking up points on the intermediate sprints and winning or being thereabouts on the sprint stages.
Bennett wasn't 'struggling to make the cut' on every stage but he would have been conscious of the cut on mountain stages and in the ITT and would try to minimise his effort while staying inside the time limit. He was something like 4 mins inside the cut on the TT but he was saving himself for the following day's sprint in Paris and was never going to be a contender , like a lot of others, in stage 20 anyway.
Sagan wasn't 'stronger or more consistent' than Bennett they were both going for stage wins and the green jersey. Bennett won two stages to Sagan's 0 and the jersey by over 90 points. Neither was interested in GC, in fact a high GC placing would have made it more difficult for a guy like Sagan to get to get into breaks and possibly win a stage.
Just because he finished 30 mins down on some mountain stages doesn't mean he was 'struggling'.
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Old 10-13-20, 11:49 AM
  #29  
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So we have the answer at the Giro. What's it going to take?

1. A depleted field with some major teams dropping out or depleted by the temporal proximity to the Tour.

2. Attacking the breakaway, not winning a sprint.

In any event, it was a great performance.
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Old 10-13-20, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
So we have the answer at the Giro. What's it going to take?

1. A depleted field with some major teams dropping out or depleted by the temporal proximity to the Tour.

2. Attacking the breakaway, not winning a sprint.

In any event, it was a great performance.
I've often wondered why he doesn't attack more often, with the climbing ability that he has. Been waiting on a win like this from Sagan for quite awhile. Seems as if this is the answer, especially on ideal routes ...instead of conserving energy for a sprint finish.

As far as a depleted field... I really don't see how anyone that's out could've hung with Sagan today. He had 'em all covered, in the race or not. Maybe Matthews ...but I really doubt it.
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Old 10-13-20, 12:54 PM
  #31  
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Like these comments from VeloNews...

https://www.velonews.com/events/giro...g-covid-cloud/

Andrew Hood: It’s a great win for Sagan, who was running out of time in 2020 to see his first victory. Sagan is wildly popular in Italy, so his exploits will help ease some of the pressure on the Giro. His decision to pass up on the northern classics to race the Giro is turning out to be the right call. Paris-Roubaix and Amstel Gold Race have both been canceled. He’ll now only miss Flanders, and instead of Sagan racing for one day, we get three weeks of him. Let’s hope he keeps attacking. The Giro needs it.

James Startt: Thank you, Peter! What a brilliant ride from a brilliant champion. I have followed Sagan closely over the years and that was one of his gutsiest rides ever. He had his back against the wall. Clearly not as fast as Démare and others, it was hard to imaging how he was going to win even one stage. But Sagan wanted to honor the Giro as he lived in Italy for years. And he did just that. Today we saw classic Sagan from one of the classiest riders. COVID cannot take anything away from this!

Ben Delaney: A win is a win, right? Especially at a grand tour. I was thinking of writing something stupid like, ‘This could be the year he transitions from a sprinter into a craftier rider,’ but that is nonsense; Sagan has always been an intuitive rider who is as comfortable reading a race as he is riding a one-handed wheelie. Still, it appears his days of absolute sprint dominance are behind him, and I, for one, am happy to see the guy notch a ‘W’ today.

Jim Cotton: Without wanting to diminish the importance of the COVID news this morning, Sagan’s victory will not be overshadowed. His win was emphatic and daring, a perfect example of the Sagan that 99 perent of cycling fans love so much, and it’s a key landmark in his career. Now he has won stages at all three grand tours. The Slovak’s victory today was the perfect counterpoint to a grim start to the day in Italy.
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Old 10-14-20, 02:38 AM
  #32  
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Interestingly, in his October 3 column and overview of the entire Giro parcours, Caley Fretz predicted this outcome for Stage 10 -- well, maybe not predicted, but said the route suited Sagan. On paper it looks like an extended HIIT session, with just enough short, steep climbs to weed out the pure sprinters, but not flat enough after the halfway point to favor pure time trialists.
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Old 10-24-20, 07:27 AM
  #33  
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https://observer.case.edu/peter-sagan-makes-a-comeback/
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Old 10-24-20, 11:13 AM
  #34  
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Article seems to be last week's news.
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Old 10-24-20, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Article seems to be last week's news.
Content events is prior news despite article being written yesterday 10-23-2020.
Although, his overall message is Sagan isn’t done by any means.
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Old 10-24-20, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by one4smoke View Post
Content events is prior news despite article being written yesterday 10-23-2020.
Although, his overall message is Sagan isn’t done by any means.
I hope not. His charisma and popularity are good for cycling.

But this is ridiculous:
"There’s also a chance that, as he ages and loses his explosiveness, he may want to become a contender in the general classification competition."
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Old 10-24-20, 05:27 PM
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#2 .

And, how about a #3 : Support from his team?
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Old 10-25-20, 03:43 AM
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Peter Sagan is back.
He never went away.
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Old 10-25-20, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by canny View Post
#2 .

And, how about a #3 : Support from his team?
I am wondering about the support he gets from team riders. From my admittedly uniformed view, it looks as if it is somewhat lacking towards the stages ends (probably OK during stages). I get the impression he doesn't have one or two strong ones who could stay with him when the action happens.
On the other hand, PS may not be the cooperating type, he strikes me as being more bent on doing his own race (don't know if that is because of my previous point of not having equal in the team or his personality). Maybe someone who follows his races more can correct my view?

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Old 10-25-20, 01:16 PM
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Sagan isn't a straight sprinter like Cavandish, Greipel, or Bennett, he has always played the peloton drifting up to the front at the right moment and riding in the slipstream of other teams before jumping out to win the sprint.I
Sure he needs his team but his great assets have been his bike handling, his power and tactical sense. At the moment his power isn't what it was and this has affected his confidence IMO.
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Old 10-25-20, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
Sagan isn't a straight sprinter like Cavandish, Greipel, or Bennett, he has always played the peloton drifting up to the front at the right moment and riding in the slipstream of other teams before jumping out to win the sprint.I
Sure he needs his team but his great assets have been his bike handling, his power and tactical sense. At the moment his power isn't what it was and this has affected his confidence IMO.
This is a good point. I can't recall Sagan ever approaching a sprint with a lead out from his team. He just appeared in the right place and right time and did it himself.

Also, Sagan has always been more than a sprinter. Just go back and look at Paris Roubaix 2018.

But he's never been and will never be a GC rider
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Old 10-25-20, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
I am wondering about the support he gets from team riders. From my admittedly uniformed view, it looks as if it is somewhat lacking towards the stages ends (probably OK during stages). I get the impression he doesn't have one or two strong ones who could stay with him when the action happens.
On the other hand, PS may not be the cooperating type, he strikes me as being more bent on doing his own race (don't know if that is because of my previous point of not having equal in the team or his personality). Maybe someone who follows his races more can correct my view?
This reminds me of Chris Horner's analysis of a stage or two ago. From the sound of it he wasn't getting any help nor support and apparently Peter showed some disappointment at them. Check his YouTube channel for that episode.
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Old 10-25-20, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 2cam16 View Post
This reminds me of Chris Horner's analysis of a stage or two ago. From the sound of it he wasn't getting any help nor support and apparently Peter showed some disappointment at them. Check his YouTube channel for that episode.
He definitely doesn't have somebody like Froome has/had Richie Porte (I think, also I believe there was one other strong teammate like that) who showed that if Froome sometimes couldn't take even the drafting behind them, then being free, they would themselves make it to a place on podium or even win the stage. That's the kind of sidekicks that Sagan doesn't have in his team. Or ones that could provide the final lead out.

I recall a race or two (can't tell which ones since I am not that serious fan of the racing scene) when he had 'lead out' in the last several kilometers but even then, it didn't last into the final kilometer before the finish line. As had been said, he has to use other riders for a lead out who have their own teammates leading them out. But that may be just as good as having his own team leading him out, after all, do or even could all sprinters that make it in front of the peloton near the finish have their own lead out that stays with them until the final sprint starts? It would be perhaps overcrowded, often the road is not wide enough for everybody or there is a turn in the road that effectively narrows the available space.

I remember that Roubaix 2018 race, that was amazing. Also Sagan used to be said not being good in hills but I remember him wining a race or a stage that finished in pretty hard shorter, but still serious hill, even when he was pretty well written off by the race commentary before getting to that hill. As to GC contending..., never say never , I doubt with Bora but maybe if he changed team? Decidedly he turned up to be much more universal rider than years ago when he was being completely discounted for hills.
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