Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Professional Cycling For the Fans
Reload this Page >

Rim brakes for Team Ineos

Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

Rim brakes for Team Ineos

Old 08-26-20, 06:01 PM
  #1  
hrdknox1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
hrdknox1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 30 Posts
Rim brakes for Team Ineos

Perhaps rim brakes are making a resurgence. Team Ineos, now Team Ineos Grenadier, will ride Pinarello F12 Dogma‘s with rim brakes in this year’s Tour de France. The Team edition bike will be available for purchase to the public in rim or disc.
hrdknox1 is offline  
Old 08-27-20, 02:02 AM
  #2  
ZHVelo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 84 Posts
Resurgence?

They have been on rim brakes always. More and more pro teams are moving to disc.
ZHVelo is offline  
Old 08-27-20, 09:53 AM
  #3  
hrdknox1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
hrdknox1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Resurgence?

They have been on rim brakes always. More and more pro teams are moving to disc.
They are the top team and have not switched over to disc. Obviously they are doing what they feel is best to win, including taking into account that the Mavic universal support vehicles only carry rim brake wheels. Team Jumbo Visma are also using rim brakes. Perhaps more pro teams will do the like.
hrdknox1 is offline  
Likes For hrdknox1:
Old 08-27-20, 10:48 AM
  #4  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,287 Times in 804 Posts
Saw rather slow on the road wheel changes with through axle disc brake bikes last year..







...
fietsbob is offline  
Likes For fietsbob:
Old 08-27-20, 11:15 AM
  #5  
surak
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,116

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 449 Post(s)
Liked 233 Times in 135 Posts
They run rim brakes because their bikes are heavy. Same reason JV is going to ride black bikes this year. https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/what...out-the-grams/
surak is offline  
Old 08-27-20, 11:46 AM
  #6  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,751

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2437 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 877 Times in 596 Posts
Originally Posted by surak View Post
They run rim brakes because their bikes are heavy. Same reason JV is going to ride black bikes this year. https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/what...out-the-grams/
I bet the faster wheel change and neutral support wheels is a bigger deciding factor despite that article. If you have GC riders ahead of team support, a flat means a getting a neutral wheel that is not changed by the team mechanic. Seconds lost can be many thousands of dollars costly, especially if that GC rider has no teammates on had to pull him back to the lead group. And if that wheel doesn't have a disc that works, that could be a real problem in the mountains! Both Ineos and Jumbo-Visma are GC teams. Discs are simply too high a risk in the GC picture (as long as your riders aren't raised on discs and expect that stopping power going into mountain turns).
79pmooney is offline  
Likes For 79pmooney:
Old 08-27-20, 01:23 PM
  #7  
surak
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,116

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 449 Post(s)
Liked 233 Times in 135 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I bet the faster wheel change and neutral support wheels is a bigger deciding factor despite that article. If you have GC riders ahead of team support, a flat means a getting a neutral wheel that is not changed by the team mechanic. Seconds lost can be many thousands of dollars costly, especially if that GC rider has no teammates on had to pull him back to the lead group. And if that wheel doesn't have a disc that works, that could be a real problem in the mountains! Both Ineos and Jumbo-Visma are GC teams. Discs are simply too high a risk in the GC picture (as long as your riders aren't raised on discs and expect that stopping power going into mountain turns).
Sure there's some small percentage of risk to needing a wheel change during a race. But there's a 100% probability of running extra weight on a bike during the entire race if your team uses an older aero bike that's not competitively light. It's not so cut and dry that using rim brakes is the best choice if the bikes weren't as heavy. JV is switching to Cervelo next year. If I had to bet, I'd side with James Huang's expectation that they'll switch to discs then.
surak is offline  
Old 08-27-20, 02:45 PM
  #8  
ZHVelo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 84 Posts
Originally Posted by hrdknox1 View Post
They are the top team and have not switched over to disc. Obviously they are doing what they feel is best to win, including taking into account that the Mavic universal support vehicles only carry rim brake wheels. Team Jumbo Visma are also using rim brakes. Perhaps more pro teams will do the like.
But it's not a resurgence if they have always been on them..."oh, two top teams haven't swapped (yet), it's a resurgence" makes no sense.
ZHVelo is offline  
Old 08-28-20, 07:55 AM
  #9  
hrdknox1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
hrdknox1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
But it's not a resurgence if they have always been on them..."oh, two top teams haven't swapped (yet), it's a resurgence" makes no sense.
Read the original post. An understanding of the word, "Perhaps", is important here.
hrdknox1 is offline  
Likes For hrdknox1:
Old 08-28-20, 10:50 AM
  #10  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3,516

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1619 Post(s)
Liked 798 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Saw rather slow on the road wheel changes with through axle disc brake bikes last year..







...
Yeah, I've wondered about that. This is more a mechanical question than a racing one, but why not build disc wheels with QR? I have a bike with such a set up (admittedly not very high end). What obvious thing am I missing?
MinnMan is offline  
Old 08-28-20, 10:56 AM
  #11  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3,516

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1619 Post(s)
Liked 798 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by surak View Post
They run rim brakes because their bikes are heavy. Same reason JV is going to ride black bikes this year. https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/what...out-the-grams/
I thought that the UCI limit of 6.8 kg was pretty easy to meet on any major bike platform these days. Shows what I (don't) know.
MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 08-28-20, 12:13 PM
  #12  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3,516

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1619 Post(s)
Liked 798 Times in 480 Posts
A related question. Rim brakes with carbon rims and a carbon brake track? What the hell do they do on mountain descents when it rains? Or for that matter, in the peloton? Very dicy, I'd think.

(I just read that the Shimano C24s actually have aluminum brake tracks, but that Ineos uses lightweight (<1000 g!) Meilenstein Obermayers for the mountain stages and those have carbon tracks. I guess if it rains, they swap back to the Shimanos.....)

Last edited by MinnMan; 08-28-20 at 12:19 PM.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 08-29-20, 12:38 PM
  #13  
csuperbike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 11 Posts
Rim brakes have worked for 100 years. They still work now.
csuperbike is offline  
Likes For csuperbike:
Old 08-30-20, 06:39 AM
  #14  
ZHVelo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 84 Posts
Originally Posted by hrdknox1 View Post
Read the original post. An understanding of the word, "Perhaps", is important here.
And you need to go and learn the definition of 'resurgence'.
ZHVelo is offline  
Old 08-30-20, 08:42 AM
  #15  
Shadco
Resident PIA
 
Shadco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: City of Oaks, NC
Posts: 345

Bikes: Litespeed Arenberg, Huffy Strider, Trek 4700, Gunnar Roadie

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by hrdknox1 View Post
They are the top team and have not switched over to disc. Obviously they are doing what they feel is best to win, including taking into account that the Mavic universal support vehicles only carry rim brake wheels. Team Jumbo Visma are also using rim brakes. Perhaps more pro teams will do the like.
What makes them the top team?

.
Shadco is offline  
Old 08-30-20, 09:08 AM
  #16  
RocThrower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 222

Bikes: Space Horse Disc, Domane SL5 Disc

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
I'm all in disc for myself, but it looks like Alaphilipe's front wheel locked up or something after he went down during stage 1. The mechanic couldn't even remove the front axle with a drill.


Start at 7:40
RocThrower is offline  
Likes For RocThrower:
Old 08-30-20, 09:34 AM
  #17  
hrdknox1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
hrdknox1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by Shadco View Post
What makes them the top team?

.
I would say the fact that they have won seven of the last eight Tour de France's, and have the money to bring in the best riders.
hrdknox1 is offline  
Likes For hrdknox1:
Old 08-30-20, 10:56 AM
  #18  
Shadco
Resident PIA
 
Shadco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: City of Oaks, NC
Posts: 345

Bikes: Litespeed Arenberg, Huffy Strider, Trek 4700, Gunnar Roadie

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by hrdknox1 View Post
I would say the fact that they have won seven of the last eight Tour de France's, and have the money to bring in the best riders.
So the TDF is all that matters in pro cycling then?

Kind of a narrow measure isn’t that?

.
Shadco is offline  
Old 08-30-20, 11:03 AM
  #19  
surak
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,116

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 449 Post(s)
Liked 233 Times in 135 Posts
Originally Posted by RocThrower View Post
I'm all in disc for myself, but it looks like Alaphilipe's front wheel locked up or something after he went down during stage 1. The mechanic couldn't even remove the front axle with a drill.
That seems more like a freak occurrence, or a result of a crash rather than the reason. Plenty of crashes lead to bikes being mangled to the point of needing a full swap.

If we're going to point out how brakes led to crashes in stage 1, how about JV's George Bennett losing contol on a straight section of a descent trying fruitlessly to scrub speed off before a bend with his rim brakes. On the FloBikes post-race show, Alex Stieda was convinced it was because his brakes wouldn't bite on carbon rims. Tony Martin also went down. Not surprising that they'd want to negotiate a truce on the final descent in order to reach the finish line in one piece.

​​​​​Of course the conditions were horrible for everyone, and many riders crashed. But did anyone besides Ineos' Sivakov crash TWICE?
surak is offline  
Old 08-30-20, 08:37 PM
  #20  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3,516

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1619 Post(s)
Liked 798 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by csuperbike View Post
Rim brakes have worked for 100 years. They still work now.
On carbon rims, and especially in the rain, not so much.
MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 08-31-20, 07:21 AM
  #21  
aclinjury
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 487
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 366 Post(s)
Liked 105 Times in 80 Posts
Originally Posted by surak View Post
That seems more like a freak occurrence, or a result of a crash rather than the reason. Plenty of crashes lead to bikes being mangled to the point of needing a full swap.

If we're going to point out how brakes led to crashes in stage 1, how about JV's George Bennett losing contol on a straight section of a descent trying fruitlessly to scrub speed off before a bend with his rim brakes. On the FloBikes post-race show, Alex Stieda was convinced it was because his brakes wouldn't bite on carbon rims. Tony Martin also went down. Not surprising that they'd want to negotiate a truce on the final descent in order to reach the finish line in one piece.

​​​​​Of course the conditions were horrible for everyone, and many riders crashed. But did anyone besides Ineos' Sivakov crash TWICE?
Sivakov just suck at descending. Homeboy also crashed descending in the Dauphane, all dry condition.
aclinjury is offline  
Likes For aclinjury:
Old 08-31-20, 04:00 PM
  #22  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,273

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 766 Post(s)
Liked 786 Times in 344 Posts
Twice as many teams are on disc brakes this year, as there were last year. So, sure ... rim brakes are making a resurgence.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 09-01-20, 04:25 AM
  #23  
ZHVelo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 84 Posts
Originally Posted by csuperbike View Post
Rim brakes have worked for 100 years. They still work now.
This is really ignorant.

What does 'work' mean? How well? How well compared to alternatives? Have they worked on carbon rims for 100 years? Were they working in the same environment (i.e. did they do the same courses, the same speeds) as now?

$1000 bikes work and yet pros don't use them.
ZHVelo is offline  
Old 09-01-20, 03:45 PM
  #24  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,070

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3203 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 139 Posts
Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
This is really ignorant.

What does 'work' mean? How well? How well compared to alternatives? Have they worked on carbon rims for 100 years? Were they working in the same environment (i.e. did they do the same courses, the same speeds) as now?

$1000 bikes work and yet pros don't use them.
I don't know where the ignorant comment comes from. Pros use what they are given.
The braking is fine with either and no TDF pro needs the 28mm+ tires you can use with a disc. They are still winning on 23-25mm tires.
The need to swap parts among GC teams is obvious.
The car is not always there and having 7 teammates that can give you their wheels (quickly) vs 1-2 that are setup your size to give you a bike should also be obvious.

Then there is less rotating weight, less fork weight and less cable/fluid weight. So even at equal mass the climbers would sometimes prefer to add lead to the frame than mass on the wheel, fork and cockpit (brake fluid reservoirs).

I have some 7-10 disc braked wheels and some 15-20 rim braked ones. Some of the disc brakes are not as good as some of the carbon rim brakes and visa versa.
Doge is offline  
Likes For Doge:
Old 09-01-20, 03:47 PM
  #25  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,070

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3203 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 139 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
On carbon rims, and especially in the rain, not so much.
Bad setup then.
Doge is offline  
Likes For Doge:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.