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Disc brakes in Tour de France

Old 08-30-20, 04:13 PM
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Disc brakes in Tour de France

In the video (go to 7:41), it shows Alaphilippe's bike in stage 1 seems to have locked the front wheel (I don't think I've ever seen that happen to a rim brake wheel unless the wheel is pretty much taco'ed). I'm wondering if Alaphilippe crashed and caused the disc to bend and thus causing his front wheel to lock like that? Did a crash knock the brake caliper way out of position causing the lockup? Or did the front brake just lock up first (for whatever reason), causing Alaphilippe to dismount? Alaphilippe's jersey and bib didn't have any rips or tears on them, so I don't think he crashed, so it could simply just be a brake issue, me think.
Then the mech from the sag car tried to remove the skewer with a power drill (ugh what?) and that didn't work either.

Then at 12:33, one of Lopez of Astana apparently locked up his rear wheel in a turn and slid out. Would he have locked it up if he was on rim brakes? I thought disc offer better modulation and feel?


Once thing for sure, changing wheels with disc is a lot more complicated than good ole rim brake wheels. And I thought disc brake is supposed to shine in this very condition of stage 1, ie, wet. But as it turns out, stage 1 was filled with crashes.
Perhaps guys have forgetten how to ride in a peloton after a long layoff? let's hope the rest of the Tour is better than stage 1 carnage!

Last edited by aclinjury; 08-30-20 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 08-30-20, 04:45 PM
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Old 08-30-20, 06:44 PM
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Okay, I'll play along for one post ...

Alaphillippe was taken out by another rider, and the crash damaged his bike. (Apparently, it was not badly damaged, because he was back riding it a few minutes later.)

Lopez locked up his rear wheel and slid out. Yes, his bike has disc brakes. So what? Sivakov crashed twice with rim brakes.
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Old 08-30-20, 07:02 PM
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Old 08-31-20, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Okay, I'll play along for one post ...

Alaphillippe was taken out by another rider, and the crash damaged his bike. (Apparently, it was not badly damaged, because he was back riding it a few minutes later.)

Lopez locked up his rear wheel and slid out. Yes, his bike has disc brakes. So what? Sivakov crashed twice with rim brakes.
Alaphilippe got a new bike.

What about all the carnage in the wet? Shouldn't disc brake suppose to shine here? you know, better feel, better modulation...etc
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Old 08-31-20, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Alaphilippe got a new bike.

What about all the carnage in the wet? Shouldn't disc brake suppose to shine here?
I remember far worse days of carnage in-the-wet with carbon rims and rim-brakes.

Racers and DSes decided to prioritize speed over wet weather traction in their tire choice...so of course discs exceeded the traction of the tires. Is that the fault of brakes--or DSes?
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Old 08-31-20, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
I remember far worse days of carnage in-the-wet with carbon rims and rim-brakes.

Racers and DSes decided to prioritize speed over wet weather traction in their tire choice...so of course discs exceeded the traction of the tires. Is that the fault of brakes--or DSes?
well people believe disc gives better modulation and better feel, especially in the wet. This is supposed to allow them to feel the limit of traction without exceeding it. That's the whole idea of better feel and modulation, isn't it? If guys are still riding faster than they should be, then is it because they're not "feeling and modulating"?
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Old 09-01-20, 03:05 PM
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How long before we see ABS in the peloton?
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Old 09-01-20, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
How long before we see ABS in the peloton?
It has a lot to do with UCI allowed mass and what ABS would add, and the inclusion of more electronics.
I think if the UCI allowed 12# bikes we wouldn't see discs now, but it is either add ballast (lead) or fill that gap with other stuff.

My view on the electronics is that I'm already not a fan on electronic shifting, Power Meters, HRM or GPS or RADIOS. Adding a computer for disc modulation is just further down the slippery slope. Knowing how to take a corner, how to brake, when to attack, how hard to pedal as well as how to setup the bike (light vs sturdy) is all part of the sport I want to keep.
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Old 09-01-20, 06:16 PM
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ABS requires a lot more power than puny derailleurs.

Also, there would be years of macho posturing about how people think they can do better by feel.
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Old 09-01-20, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
well people believe disc gives better modulation and better feel, especially in the wet. This is supposed to allow them to feel the limit of traction without exceeding it. That's the whole idea of better feel and modulation, isn't it? If guys are still riding faster than they should be, then is it because they're not "feeling and modulating"?
I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Nothing is perfect and will stop 100% of crashes; especially when end-users are willing to gamble for marginal gains. I'd bet money we'd have seen much more of a demolition derby on that stage with everyone using carbon brakes and rim brakes. This is a very atypical TdF which has made it far more interesting. Usually the first 8 days of TdF are 200km long flat prairie rides about as technical/difficult as walking on a sidewalk--where everyone can shake out the legs and bike handling skills...and absolutely nothing notworthy happens until the last 500 meters. This time we had mountain climbs and technical blind-turn mountain descents in complete downpours on Day 1, after most of the peloton had barely any racing on their legs in months.


BTW if you watched La Course.....the ladies had a dry non-eventful day of it.
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Old 09-02-20, 09:50 PM
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So ... riders crashed with both rim and disc brakes ... this proves discs are bad. BF Logic.

Discs are supposed to be easier to modulate. Therefore, if a rider crashes with discs .... what everyone who has ever ridden discs knows to be true, suddenly becomes untrue. Because of course no one racing hard in the wet in the TdF would ever push just a tad too hard ..... BF Logic.

If a bike is involved in a wreck and damaged, that is normal, unless the bike has disc brakes. If the bike had discs, the discs caused the damage, not the crash. BF Logic.

I am interested in seeing what gear different riders and teams use, but I could not care less if they choose one brand or one system over another. It was interesting to see that four of six (I think) of the bikes in the breakaway in Stage Four (a climbing stage with a summit finish) had disc brakes. I do not recall what kind of brakes the top three finishers had. I don't watch bike racing to have my prejudices supported, or to be offended by bicycles, ... and I have no personal favorite in braking systems, having used pretty much every variety but drum brakes. But obviously, a lot of people here need to have their preferences validated by the pro peleton. BF Logic.

I am not interested in all the Sturm und Drang over brakes ... but I will say, posters here are embarrassing themselves. the crazy posts, removed from reality, justified by prejudice, devoid of fact ....

Well, if those are the posts people Want to make, they are certainly free to do so.
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Old 09-05-20, 01:01 PM
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Disks are great - until they aren't. They can be a massive P.I.T. to change. Until the speed of change issues can be mitigated, I'd not be surprised to see substantial movement back to rim brakes.
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Old 09-05-20, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
How long before we see ABS in the peloton?
ABS would be of marginal use here - ABS detects wheel rotation slowing down preparatory to lockup and eases up on the braking. What we saw in many cases was tires losing traction and sliding out sideways on corners - likely still rotating, but the wet surface defeated the ~ 1 square inch of contact patch under each tire. Unlike ABS and stability control in a car which can rescue the situation before it becomes irrecoverable, once a bike tire starts sliding sideways, there’s no way of recovering bar rider skill/luck. Maybe one day when bikes have built-in gyros that can keep them upright, but until then....
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Old 09-06-20, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Litespud
ABS would be of marginal use here - ABS detects wheel rotation slowing down preparatory to lockup and eases up on the braking. What we saw in many cases was tires losing traction and sliding out sideways on corners - likely still rotating, but the wet surface defeated the ~ 1 square inch of contact patch under each tire. Unlike ABS and stability control in a car which can rescue the situation before it becomes irrecoverable, once a bike tire starts sliding sideways, there’s no way of recovering bar rider skill/luck. Maybe one day when bikes have built-in gyros that can keep them upright, but until then....
In a low-traction situation like that, even a light touch on the brakes while cornering could cause a loss of traction and the subsequent sliding out and crashing.

I do not know if the crashes were cause by simply cornering too fast for the conditions or the light touch of the brakes as described above.
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Old 09-06-20, 11:57 AM
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Yeah, discs have been doing well... Nans Peters won yesterday on rim brakes, on a hilly stage with warp-speed descents. His teammates on AG2R also did well in the KOM category and made up time on the GC.

Today: another hilly one, and Podacar, another first-timer, won the stage on rim brakes. And who is now leading the GC? Roglic on rim brakes.

Discs seem to do much better on the pancake-flat stages, where the (rotating) weight penalty is not exposed. And where discs can continue to serve as a marketing vehicle aimed at flabby dentists with gold cards.
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Old 09-06-20, 01:36 PM
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It's amazing how desperate some people are to avoid accepting the truth: disk brakes work better.
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Old 09-06-20, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
It's amazing how desperate some people are to avoid accepting the truth: disk brakes work better.
They provide more stopping force.
Stages 1- 9 of the TdF - Rim braked bikes win 8 (check my counts).
Only green jersey is disc braked, PDot, yellow, white using rim.

Correlation is not causation, but the argument around stopping power is missing the point of what is the best tool for winning.
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Old 09-06-20, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Yeah, discs have been doing well... Nans Peters won yesterday on rim brakes, on a hilly stage with warp-speed descents. His teammates on AG2R also did well in the KOM category and made up time on the GC.

Today: another hilly one, and Podacar, another first-timer, won the stage on rim brakes. And who is now leading the GC? Roglic on rim brakes.

Discs seem to do much better on the pancake-flat stages, where the (rotating) weight penalty is not exposed. And where discs can continue to serve as a marketing vehicle aimed at flabby dentists with gold cards.
The "rotating weight penalty" is fictional and was debunked with great effectiveness by tomato coupe in the Team Ineos-Rim Brake thread. I recommend it to anybody still retaining that non-physical myth.

As to the "dentists with gold cards" insult which you seem to like repeating, your bile is your problem.
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Old 09-06-20, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
They provide more stopping force.
Stages 1- 9 of the TdF - Rim braked bikes win 8 (check my counts).
Only green jersey is disc braked, PDot, yellow, white using rim.

Correlation is not causation, but the argument around stopping power is missing the point of what is the best tool for winning.
Correct. And with such a small sample, not adjusting for whether teams with and without disc brakes are equally distributed in number and strength, it's also not so great for persuasion.
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Old 09-06-20, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Correct. And with such a small sample, not adjusting for whether teams with and without disc brakes are equally distributed in number and strength, it's also not so great for persuasion.
It is certainly not conclusive, but it should be watched. We can look at other races too. I am in agreement discs stop better, but there is more to winning than stopping and some things may be worth compromising on for convenience and maybe even feel.
I'd expect the teams using rim brakes had the choice. I'd like to hear their arguments. For right now, it is hard to argue with their selections.
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Old 09-06-20, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
The "rotating weight penalty" is fictional and was debunked with great effectiveness by tomato coupe in the Team Ineos-Rim Brake thread. I recommend it to anybody still retaining that non-physical myth.

As to the "dentists with gold cards" insult which you seem to like repeating, your bile is your problem.
I do not agree. You have more than rotating weight. The lever arm is a factor in feel in side to side movement that TC just ignored and went right over. He also used the disc weight and didn't consider the heavier hubs and bolts.
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Old 09-06-20, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
It is certainly not conclusive, but it should be watched. We can look at other races too. I am in agreement discs stop better, but there is more to winning than stopping and some things may be worth compromising on for convenience and maybe even feel.
I'd expect the teams using rim brakes had the choice. I'd like to hear their arguments. For right now, it is hard to argue with their selections.
The sole persuasive argument presented here in favor of rim brakes has been mechanicals - speed of wheel changes and availability of wheels from neutral service.
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Old 09-06-20, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
I do not agree. You have more than rotating weight. The lever arm is a factor in feel in side to side movement that TC just ignored and went right over. He also used the disc weight and didn't consider the heavier hubs and bolts.
I'm surprised that you are still on this. Your exchange with tomato coupe in the other thread just showed that you don't understand physics. I thought you tacitly acknowledged this when you failed to reply when he corrected your calculation. The idea that you now bring in "hubs and bolts" into an argument about rotating weight proves that you still don't understand the concept of moment of inertia.. Lever arm considerations don't matter at all to the forward motion of the bicycle, and as far as I recall, were not the substance of the earlier discussion.

If you want to make an argument about body forces, it isn't a matter of opinion.
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Old 09-06-20, 04:24 PM
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In this argument about rim vs disc brakes pertaining to race performance, and therefore speed, there is repeated reference to the weight difference. Of course, with the UCI weight minimum of 6.8 kg (15 lbs), this really isn't a factor because highest-end bikes with both types of brakes generally would be lighter than this and most teams are actually deliberately adding weight to their bikes to keep them from being below the minimum.

References to "rotating weight" are hogwash.

It surprises me that the argument hasn't turned to aerodynamics, because it has long been argued that disc brakes are less aero than rim brakes. Without a specific bicycle design, it is impossible to prove or disprove this general thesis. However, the limited wind tunnel data that I have seen suggests that this also isn't necessarily a factor. For example, https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Disc...Drag_6073.html
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