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Pogacar - the anti-Froome or something to hide?

Old 09-20-20, 10:08 PM
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MinnMan
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Pogacar - the anti-Froome or something to hide?

So Pogacar rode that time trial without a computer, power meter, or HRM, choosing instead to ride by "feel".

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pog...belles-filles/

After years of watching Froome glued to his head unit, watching his power numbers like an automaton, that's refreshing and liberating.

Or does he have something to hide?

CORRECTION: He had a power meter (but not HRM) on the TT bike, but not on the road bike for the climb.

Last edited by MinnMan; 09-20-20 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 09-20-20, 10:42 PM
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Something to hide? Doubtful. He rode with a PM for the first part of the stage, until he swapped bikes for the climb. He still had his radio, (unlike Lemond in 89) so he knew he'd been putting time into Roglic. At that point, it was just 'full gas' He was already in second, and faster to the CP than everyone except Dumoulin, who he already had time in hand.
So, either ride to power, and lock down 2nd, or blow yourself to smithereens and maybe take the whole thing. Pogacar is a national TT champ, so I'd say his instincts are pretty good.

Kinda like when Soren Kragh Andersen took off at the end of Stage 19; He's 2km from the finish, yelling 'Time?!' to the moto, WFO with no idea that there's over a minute of clear road behind him.
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Old 09-21-20, 12:21 AM
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it was quite a "Superman" he rode in the TT, winning by over a minute. When's the last time a TT was won by such a wide margin? Sure, Roglic didn't have a good TT but one minute over EVERYONE else?

Sorry, I'm skeptical when I see "superman" in a bike race.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:11 AM
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it's a lot easier to deal with if you pretend every professional (and more than a few amateurs) athlete in every major or minor sport across the globe is looking for that edge over the competition...and receiving it whether it is legal or not.
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Old 09-21-20, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ooga-booga View Post
it's a lot easier to deal with if you pretend every professional (and more than a few amateurs) athlete in every major or minor sport across the globe is looking for that edge over the competition...and receiving it whether it is legal or not.
That right there ^^^^^^^.

Why care if riders are juiced? The genie has been out of the bottle for a long, long time and you can't get it back in. Make sure the bikes don't have motors and run what ya brung. If they're willing to gamble their long term health, I'm willing to watch.
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Old 09-21-20, 05:33 AM
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Gotta admit, the circumstances and choices on the climb make for some interesting and imaginative speculation.

FACTS:
There is a short king of the mt. climb to end a TT and the winner beats the nearest competitor on the climb by 1:20 and beats the guy that was in 1st by 1:56 overall (previously they've swapped beating each other in TTs. It's not like Roglic bonked on the climb, he still finished with a great time.

INTERESTING/IMAGINATIVE PART:
Why ride without an electronic means of recording your vitals?
Because you don't mind speculation over your achievement, you just don't want verifiable, irrefutable proof of the deed.
(And Yes, I've always wondered about Greg L and his final TT against Fignon.... also with he and Bernie H. blowing away a class field of professionals in 1986 going on a 90K breakaway to win together by a large margin)

Of course, we are just "arm chairing" the whole thing, no proof, just the possibility of being full of .... well, you know!

Maybe in 50 years when Pogacar writes his memoirs he may tell the whole story of how it actually happened one way or the other.

But for sure I won't be around to read it.
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Old 09-21-20, 06:02 AM
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I read Tadej's biography that cycling news had. His performance isn't as hard to believe when he was riding at a pretty high level since he was 9. He's only 22 now, no major injuries or pressure of life. He rode perfectly and as Mercx pointed out he was fantastic at the '19 Vuelta. Tadej had nothing to loose and just rode.

To me if you want to point fingers, how come Roglic collapsed after his DS was removed from the Tour?

Then again I watched Tadej barely, barely pip Higuita at the tour of california not even two years ago. Now he's on a different level then any other? He obliterated The Tour, more dominate then anyone for quite some time. Multiple riders have commented that they were achieving their best power levels or close to.

Even without the power meter it's hard to hide anything climbing a mountain. From other comments he was within his usual performance level. I also read a comment by someone referencing Bob Roll's thoughts on Froome, that without the power meter he might be faster.

When I go out and ride, often my performance is dependent on my mental state. A 21 year old talent going off on a real flyer is far less surprising then a 30 y/o doing the same at the Giro
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Old 09-21-20, 07:35 AM
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Well, I don't know about the pros, but personally speaking I know there are days - although few and far between - where I have "Superman" like performances (comparatively speaking). Can't explain it, just sometimes it happens. When I rode my longest distance ever (127 miles) I swear I could've went to 200 easily. Would have if not for darkness and rain. Normally, it's all I can do to make it to 100.

Maybe Pogacar just was having one of those days ...without any help.
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Old 09-21-20, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ooga-booga View Post
it's a lot easier to deal with if you pretend every professional (and more than a few amateurs) athlete in every major or minor sport across the globe is looking for that edge over the competition...and receiving it whether it is legal or not.
I don't know that you're wrong, but if you are right, then Pogacar had better stuff on Saturday than everybody else on the Tour.
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Old 09-21-20, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
I read Tadej's biography that cycling news had. His performance isn't as hard to believe when he was riding at a pretty high level since he was 9. He's only 22 now, no major injuries or pressure of life. He rode perfectly and as Mercx pointed out he was fantastic at the '19 Vuelta. Tadej had nothing to loose and just rode.

To me if you want to point fingers, how come Roglic collapsed after his DS was removed from the Tour?

Then again I watched Tadej barely, barely pip Higuita at the tour of california not even two years ago. Now he's on a different level then any other? He obliterated The Tour, more dominate then anyone for quite some time. Multiple riders have commented that they were achieving their best power levels or close to.

Even without the power meter it's hard to hide anything climbing a mountain. From other comments he was within his usual performance level. I also read a comment by someone referencing Bob Roll's thoughts on Froome, that without the power meter he might be faster.

When I go out and ride, often my performance is dependent on my mental state. A 21 year old talent going off on a real flyer is far less surprising then a 30 y/o doing the same at the Giro
22 year old in his first ever Tour de France besting an entire peloton in a ITT by 1'20"? Without even any on-bike telemetry? Sound any less believable? Rewatch the 2006 TdF. In the penultimate stage ITT, there was a come behind to win the GC--that rider put 1'30" on his competition in a ITT in one day. Of course 4 days after Paris, all of that was deleted from the record books--because Floyd was doped to the gills.

We've seen it before. Was unbelievable then--is just as (un) believable now. Hence the looks of disbelief on Jumbo Visma.
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Old 09-21-20, 09:45 AM
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This is all very interesting. Is anyone wondering also about the performance of Richie Porte at the age of 35?itís only fair.
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Old 09-21-20, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Skullo View Post
This is all very interesting. Is anyone wondering also about the performance of Richie Porte at the age of 35?itís only fair.
Yes though at 3 minutes down it isn't as glaring. Plus he's been working towards it for years, and really his performance isn't surprising. He has quite the palmares really.

How about Wout? He was also on another level, winning sprint stages while also dropping riders in the mountains. But then no one mentions Soren Kraig Anderson?

Going along with Anderson, twice he escaped from a collection of the best cyclists. But also they were much older then him. I wonder if all this is from the coronavirus? The youngsters wouldn't have been affected nearly as much as others. I haven't been diagnosed with covid-19, but I had something at the start of this year that took a few months to recover fully from. The symptoms were gone after a few weeks but the lungs burned for a couple months into the spring, and my overall fitness on the bike and jogging took a few months to get back to where I was.
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Old 09-21-20, 10:47 AM
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Pogacar lost quite a bit of time in Stage 7. In stage 8 he was part of a chase group with the leaders. He made an emphatic break away from that group on the either the last or the second to the last climb and regained a substantial amount of his lost time. I commented to my wife after that stage that what he did was huge. He went on to win stage 9, then 2 more stages. The toughness is there. The willingness and ability to significantly better the competition on climbs is there. His drive and ability to win is there. His final margin of victory was the 10th smallest in tour history.

How does his final TT margin of victory measure against historical bests?
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Old 09-21-20, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Skullo View Post
This is all very interesting. Is anyone wondering also about the performance of Richie Porte at the age of 35?it’s only fair.
He had a good ride...but it is much more in scale with the rest of the peloton.

As opposed to Pogacar who on his 2nd TdF put 1'21" on the entire rest of the peloton in an ITT on his 2nd TdF. Dumolin, Porte, Roiglic were all foaming at the mouth and drooling while riding and flopped on the ground like a dead fish when done....meanwhile Pogacar got off his bike, stood and celebrated.
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Old 09-21-20, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
Yes though at 3 minutes down it isn't as glaring. Plus he's been working towards it for years, and really his performance isn't surprising. He has quite the palmares really.

How about Wout? He was also on another level, winning sprint stages while also dropping riders in the mountains. But then no one mentions Soren Kraig Anderson?

Going along with Anderson, twice he escaped from a collection of the best cyclists. But also they were much older then him. I wonder if all this is from the coronavirus? The youngsters wouldn't have been affected nearly as much as others. I haven't been diagnosed with covid-19, but I had something at the start of this year that took a few months to recover fully from. The symptoms were gone after a few weeks but the lungs burned for a couple months into the spring, and my overall fitness on the bike and jogging took a few months to get back to where I was.
Maybe that why Iím so slow this year, Iíve had Covid and did not know it.I havenít felt ill of body only of mind.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:08 PM
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Having started this thread, I find all of your opinions interesting (really). I don't know what the truth is, but I see both sides of the argument.

We all hope Pogacar is clean, but some of us have been burned too many times by those kinds of hopes.

Beyond that, let me add to what I said in the OP. The Froome-nose-to-the-power-meter years were dull. Many people respected Froome, but he hardly elicited excitement compared to cyclists of yore or to some of his contemporaries. Contador was an exciting rider. Yes he was a doper and probably more people hated him than loved him, but he had spirit.

This young bunch has spirit. That's a lot.
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Old 09-21-20, 02:22 PM
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Another point - Pogacar and UAE targeted the ITT. Visited it three times before the race. Practiced the bike change and scoped out all the potholes, best lines, etc. Pogacar knew the climb well. Roglic had never seen it before or perhaps raced up it once. We all know the local boy can go up his favorite hill fast!

That said, Pogacar went up the hill going for the ultimate prize in bike racing only a couple of seconds faster than Uran did in a previous race to win a stage. He wasn't doing anything off the charts crazy. The rider/team to look at is Roglic and JV. They did not pre-ride that course. Their bike change was unprofessional. They clearly didn't ride the days before focused on this Stage being the most important of the Tour.
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Old 09-21-20, 07:20 PM
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E

I am so happy that the race was held. I haven't wrapped my head around the time trial yet. It was amazing.
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Old 09-21-20, 09:08 PM
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I get ditching the power meter for the ride, they're using that thing to constantly monitor how their doing and going for the tiniest of gains against their previous personal best to show any improvement. I'm sure there is a point in which it can become a mental hurdle when you "know" your power output for any given distance, climb, or situation and while the goal would be to at the least match if not slightly surpass your expected output; how much does it also tell you that you've hit your max and nothing more is available? If only your body is telling you you're at your limit you might convince it otherwise where you might not convince your body and your mind that is staring at known digits.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:52 AM
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Well that saved him a couple hundred of grams for sure. Makes sense really. 6km at that gradient, that should be a handful of seconds. Not to mention the Tour is over, he doesn't need to worry about going into the red and suffering the next day, just about not blowing up before the end and as a pro cyclists I am sure he was confident in that.
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Old 09-22-20, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
22 year old in his first ever Tour de France besting an entire peloton in a ITT by 1'20"? Without even any on-bike telemetry? Sound any less believable? Rewatch the 2006 TdF. In the penultimate stage ITT, there was a come behind to win the GC--that rider put 1'30" on his competition in a ITT in one day. Of course 4 days after Paris, all of that was deleted from the record books--because Floyd was doped to the gills.

We've seen it before. Was unbelievable then--is just as (un) believable now. Hence the looks of disbelief on Jumbo Visma.
What about Remco who just launches it from so far and can't be caught?
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Old 09-22-20, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
What about Remco who just launches it from so far and can't be caught?
Did his shattered pelvis win anything in the 2020 TdF?

Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Well that saved him a couple hundred of grams for sure. Makes sense really. 6km at that gradient, that should be a handful of seconds. Not to mention the Tour is over, he doesn't need to worry about going into the red and suffering the next day, just about not blowing up before the end and as a pro cyclists I am sure he was confident in that.
It, of course, also means there's no ride telemetry to go on Strava or easily compare to known efforts to. Convenient that, not leaving biometric evidence. What a completely unforeseeable and completely serendipitous coincidence, that.

I mean it isn't like there's a UCI minimum weight limit that all these guys have to add ballast to their climbing bike to even meet, anyway....oh wait, there is.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:16 AM
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hate to say it, but it was still a thrilling stage, and like all here hope it was legit
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Old 09-22-20, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Did his shattered pelvis win anything in the 2020 TdF?



It, of course, also means there's no ride telemetry to go on Strava or easily compare to known efforts to. Convenient that, not leaving biometric evidence. What a completely unforeseeable and completely serendipitous coincidence, that.

I mean it isn't like there's a UCI minimum weight limit that all these guys have to add ballast to their climbing bike to even meet, anyway....oh wait, there is.
Irrelevant.

You do realize one can, and plenty of people already have, estimated his watts/kg. Nothing else a bike computer provides would be relevant.

Also irrelevant, bikes will always be above to be safe, and they will not take into account the weight of the bike computer when having to comply with the 6.8kg limit:

"The minimum weight of the bicycle (in working order) is 6.800 kg, considered without on-board accessories in place, that is to say those items that may be removed during the event. The bottles, on-board computers and all others removable accessories must be removed during the weight check. However, the bottle cages, fixture systems and clipped-on extensions are part of the bicycle and stay in place during the weighing."

I mean it's not like you have no clue what you are talking about, right?
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Old 09-22-20, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Irrelevant.

You do realize one can, and plenty of people already have, estimated his watts/kg. Nothing else a bike computer provides would be relevant.

Also irrelevant, bikes will always be above to be safe, and they will not take into account the weight of the bike computer when having to comply with the 6.8kg limit:

"The minimum weight of the bicycle (in working order) is 6.800 kg, considered without on-board accessories in place, that is to say those items that may be removed during the event. The bottles, on-board computers and all others removable accessories must be removed during the weight check. However, the bottle cages, fixture systems and clipped-on extensions are part of the bicycle and stay in place during the weighing."

I mean it's not like you have no clue what you are talking about, right?
Instead of getting snarky...go read about the set-screw on the Wahoo Bolt mount, that is an end-around that pesky regulation.

To be fair, Stages is the official computer sponsor of UAE....but official sponsors have never stopped teams/riders from using something before. I've never handled a Stages M50 or the like--but I'd not be surprised if their UCI race hardware has similar.
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