Big R

I beg to differ....Basso has NOT proven he can stay with Lance. We do know Lance can stay with Basso. With the exception of the ITT, I don't think we've seen what Lance can do. Lance is (and should be) perfectly content to stay w/Basso, Ulrich et.al. Why would he try to beat them at this point.

Rather than all the psycho babble....I think Lance is just a superior athlete...calling Basso and Ulrich "losers" is a bit petty and uninformed IMHO.

JungleCat

Au contraire, Basso's attack on Sunday was his try. Lance bridged a gap and hung with him all the way up. Today, Lance was attacked a few times and still did not show weakness so I don't really know where Basso has another opportunity.

Just a question. If you were sitting in 2nd place with less than a week to go, knowing your best efforts against the best TDF rider have not panned out, would you still blow up everything and risk losing the podium? Why?

alanbikehouston

The history of the Tour has shown that the ONLY way to defeat a dominant rider in the Tour is to think you CAN win, and then ride to win. And, take the risk of losing. The "big" riders in the Tour were only beaten by guys goofy enough to think that the "big" guy could be beaten.

Merckx had won the Tour five times before 1975. Anyone could have told Thevenet that Merckx could not be beaten in the Tour. Being dense, Thevenet rode to win, and he won.

In 1986, everyone knew that Greg LeMond had no chance to catch Laurent Fignon on the final day. Except for Greg LeMond. He rode to win. He won.

By 1996, Indurain had won the Tour five years in a row. Any idiot could have told Bjarne Riis it would be a disaster to attack Indurain in the mountains. And, when Riis attacked Indurain over, and over in the mountains, it WAS a disaster. For Indurain. The "unbeatable" Indurain cracked, and then slowly dragged his bike to Paris, far behind Riis.

And, in 1998, it was madness for Pantani to ride flat out up the Galibier, when Ullrich was certain to win the Tour. Except Ullrich broke down while chasing Pantani, and Pantani went on to win the Tour.

Imagine when biographers interview Basso and Ullrich thirty years from now, and ask "What was your plan for winning the Tour de France". And, the most likely answer is: "Wait for Lance to retire".

chemcycle

With help from his family and intense remedial courses, I'm sure he can overcome this language deficit....

Sounds a little too hackneyed and contrived for my taste......but he has done a good job...

The_Convert

When Thevenet won, was that not the year Merckx was pounded in the stomach by a spectator? Was it not the year he crashed a few days later and fractured his cheekbone? Was that not the year he only lost by 3 minutes in spite all of this?

Lemond rode all out because it was the FINAL DAY. Trust me, Basso will put in 110% in the final TT.

It's too late in the tour to come back and win against Lance. All that would happen to somebody who is all but garunteed a podium finish would be the chance of dropping outside of the top 10.

Why don't you go register for a stage race and race in it, you will understand immediately why Basso is riding the way he is.

cedo

Interview today in cyclingnews.

. . . a journalist posed the question of whether Ivan Basso, currently sitting second on the general classification in this year's Tour, is simply too nice a guy, and whether his friendly face and demeanour prevent him from really taking the challenge to Armstrong - a man who admits he doesn't like losing anything at all. Said Riis: "You need the legs, not the face. You cannot be somebody you're not. You are what you are, and cannot pretend you're somebody else."
. . .
Today, Basso confirmed to Cyclingnews that over the past two mountain stages, where he was the only rider capable of matching and attacking Armstrong, not once did the American look like he was in any trouble, whether it was following his wheel, taking a turn in front, or matching an acceleration. Yesterday [Stage 16], I did 100 percent, I went full gas. The last two days, we try to put pressure and I tried, T-Mobile tried, and he doesn't get dropped. I see Lance each day very, very strong. When he passes me [to do a turn], he goes at the same speed."
"If there is no more to give, what can he do to try and beat Armstrong over these next few days?"
"Drop him by 10 minutes, I think that would be a good thing," said Riis sarcastically. "To drop him in the mountains, we've seen it's not easy."

alanbikehouston

Yes, Thevenet won the year Merckx got punched by a fan. After being punched, Merckx continue to ride like Merckx for 2 1/2 days. The Tour was over. Merckx was leading by a minute and a half. Folks told Thevenet "better luck next year". But, Thevenet was dense. He chose to attack Merckx going up the Col du Champ, where Merckx was certain to beat him.

Merckx, surprised at being challenged to race (the Tour was OVER according to the "experts" ) just 45 miles from the finish, decided to teach Thevenet who was the boss. Merckx took off past Thevenet so fast that Thevenet said Mercckx "had 50 or 60 meters on me before I realised I was at the back..."

So, NOW it was time for Thevenet to quit. Merckx had a 1 1/2 minutes lead was expanding to two minutes, to three minutes. Once again, Thevenet was too dumb to know the Tour was over. He went after Merckx. Totally pointless. Merckx was protected by team mates Janssen and Schoenmaecker, and all three were flying.

Merckx descended so fast that he caught up with the press caravan, far ahead of the chasing riders. With just 15 miles to go, Merckx had built an insurmontable lead. Clearly, time for Thevenet to quit.

Dumb 'ol Thevenet keep chasing. Thevenet finally caught Merckx and rode him into the ground. Merckx was totally out of gas, two miles from the finish line. Thevenet finished the day with a 1 1/2 minute lead over Merckx, and went on to win the Tour.

Everyone in the peloton knew Merckx had been punched, and many riders may have suspected he was less than 100% of the "real" Merckx. But, because the "Tour was over", none of them wanted to test just how strong Merckx was. Except for dumb 'ol Thevenet. He won because he was too thick to understand that races are "over" when the experts say they are "over.

ZappCatt

You just proved the point in your "arguments"
1) Indurain attacked like a maniac...and cracked and lost.
2) Merckx attacked like a maniac....and cracked and lost.

For your example to work, Armstrong would have to make a stupid attack..and then Basso could chase and pass him when he cracked....

Go Down Moses

That's just silly, AlanBikeHouston. Evans would not have been six minutes ahead of Lance had Lance cared about him. The only reason he was up the road on Lance is because Lance and Discovery LET him be up the road.

As Basso pointed out in a Eurosport interview, Lance is his equal in the mountains and faster than he is in the Time Trials. Basso's conclusion, therefore, after completing five mountain stages in which he tried everything he could against Lance is that Lance is unbeatable.

Other than some kind of disaster like a wreck or a mechanical failure, Basso is correct.

alanbikehouston

Attack? It was Indurain who was under attack in the mountains. Why? Some riders decided that although the "experts" had picked Indurain to win, maybe there should be a bike race before the awards ceremony. When Indurain chased after them, Indurain ran out of gas. Both Riis and Indurain were riding to win. And one of them did.

Likewise, Merckx got attacked by Thevenet, because he foolishly thought there ought to be a bike race prior to arriving in Paris. Merckx then passed Thevenet. Merckx was like a poker player, putting all of his chips on the table, and expecting the other player to get scared and fold. That strategy had worked many times for Merckx. Fear is a powerful weapon and Merckx use other riders' fear of losing with deadly effectiveness.

Thevenet refused to be intimidated. A bike race broke out. Thevenet won. And, although Merckx was in his "prime" at just age 30, he could no longer rely on "fear" as his primary weapon. Riders were now eager to challenge him. Merckx never won the Tour again.

Some of you may find it "fascinating" that this final week of the Tour is simply becoming a long victory parade into Paris. But, I'd rather see a bike race.

Doid23

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, in that I think that most of the riders came into the tour with this image of Lance as unbeatable, much like they did with Indurain, etc. But I also think that your confusing strategy with the ability to execute it. Just because Indurain proved to be beatable, doesn't mean that Lance is. Maybe Basso is putting in the same effort/ attack strategy that Riise did, except it doesn't look like it because Lance, unlike Indurain, is able to match it. Impossible to know. I criticize Basso more for entering the Giro (in terms of his form for the Tour), than that he's been afraid of Lance. I just think that Lance is still a better rider, that's all.

Kind of like all the posters who said that the only way to beat Lance was to separate him from his team, and isolate him and he would break. Well, they did isolate him, but they didn't break him. Would a Riise/ Thevenet been able to break him? No way to know. Since this isn't a timed event like the hour record, impossible to compare riders/ strategies/ outcomes from different tours, since it's impossible to measure absolute performance, only relative performance.

SunSwingsLow

I think saying that Basso was as strong as Lance is acceptable. To say he was stronger on those 13 days is completely unnacceptable. If he was stronger he would have put a move on Lance that Lance couldnt respond too. Now if you want to reverse it and say that Lance was as strong or stronger than Basso on all 15(to that point) stages then I would agree with you but not the other way around.

Basso doesnt have the wheels to put a move on Lance that will stick. Lets say hes lost his mind and attempts to attack Lance...where do you propose he does it at? If he goes early then Team Disco and T-Mob for that matter have most of thier team in tact and have enough ammunition to reel him in. The only option is to go late on the last climb and crack Lance. Which we have seen the result of those attacks. Lance covers with relative ease and Basso knows he is done. While I understand the importance of mental toughness and positive attitude(I spoke at length in another thread of its importance). Basso is not a victim of mental weakness, hes a victim of Lances superior firepower and planning that covered all the bases on this tour.

Basso is the future of the tour. Hes shown the ability to put time on all the GC riders in the moutains and his TT continues to get better. He is the most complete rider next to Lance and that is why he sits in 2nd virtually assured that spot on the podium.

hair07

i guess i agree in spirt w/ alanbikehouston. i'd love to see someone take the attitude: win or die trying. although, it kind of sounds like vino is doing that. he keeps attacking and then getting dropped. i'd rather it was his attitude w/ basso's body. i know basso has tried to shake armstrong and it hasn't happened. that doesn't mean it won't though. i would like to see him just attack over and over. if he fry's himself, so be it. unfortunately for me, it seems like he'd rather take 2nd than do what i want him to do. c'est la vie. it's been a good race, but i'd rather it not end now. there's still 5 or 6 days.

dan

Ti-Carbo

WOW!!! So many people with the "how to beat Lance" formula. I.B. knows that Lance owns him. I.B. knows that next year, he will be the top G.C. rider. I.B. knows he must improve his ITT skills so he can be at the top of the podium in 2006.

You saw it here first - I.B. does not ride the Giro next year - works out his ITT issue, pre-rides all of the stages during the winter months (the hard ones twice), peaks on stage 13 in the TDF, and wins the tour.

"Vino" signs with Disco for 2006, It takes Johan 2 years to drain the "Piss-n-Vinegar" riding style out of him, and in 2008 we have the best TDF of the decade!

IMHO of course

ddeand 

Interesting discussion - and very informative! The one thing that seems to be missing (although it's been hinted) is the fitness, strategy, and intensity of Armstrong. All the "What ifs?" are being tossed out as if LA was the same as other cyclists - he's not - he's quite different. Whether you like Armstrong or not, he has shown tremendous fitness, strategy, and adaptive abilities - he does what is needed and what is prudent for the overall victory. Maybe there have been a few instances where he has had to give 100% of his energy, wit, and ability - but I guarantee that the others in the Tour have had to go 100% much more than LA. I mean, what's left for Basso to say?

In all areas - ability, training, physiology, planning, execution, maturity, and toughness - Armstrong is a notch above his closest rivals. It's almost amazing!

Dean

Ti-Carbo

what ddeand said is spot on!

HJR

ddeand is right. Basso attacked and attacked and attacked. The last two stages it was primarily his attacks and accelleration that dropped Ulrich, Vino, Rasmussen, Kolden, Levi, Landis, etc. Lance hung on like a beast. And then out of respect (IMHO)for Basso's efforts, Lance help him put time on the others. Lance said so himself. I agree that the notion of falling on your sword is romantic, but so what. Are you saying you respect Vino more than Basso? There is a saying in motor racing that goes: "to finish first, first you have to finish". I believe that Basso gave all he had and Lance matched it. Basso and Lance made up 2:30 on the "climbers" ahead of them and more than that on many of those behind them. That tells me that they were flying up those mountains. How much more do you expect of these guys?

squeegy200

Ivan valiantly attacked on several occassions. His attacks were so effective, it dropped such notables as Ulrich, Kloden, Vino, Rassmusen, etc etc. He indicated that he shook them all but he could not shake Lance.

There are no more mountain stages to attack. What further conclusions can you make?

ADA23

Got this off the internet and don't really understand it. Did Evans do the wrong thing or are these blokes a bunch of primmadonna sooks?

Evans makes 'new enemies'
From Justin Davis in Pau, France
July 20, 2005

AUSTRALIA's Cadel Evans made "10 new enemies" as he finished fourth on the 16th stage of the Tour de France overnight.
Evans enraged his 11-strong group of breakaway companions by attacking 8km from the Aubisque summit, but went on to lose his advantage and then practically led the four stage leaders into the finish at Pau.
The Aussie, aiming for a top 10 spot, was never likely to win a sprint finish and it was no surprise when Pereiro popped out from behind his wheel with 200m to go to claim victory.
Despite being a threat to those riders aiming for a top 10 finish, Evans managed to slip into the group which had formed early in the stage.
They had been hoping to build a solid lead on the chasing bunch in a bid to contend the stage victory among themselves, and so Evans' presence was rather unwelcome.
But the 27-year-old former mountain bike champion decided not to stay with them. His speedy attack left his group trailing and he eventually raced over the summit with a 48sec lead on Pereiro, with Lampre's Mazzoleni not far behind.
Germany's Jorg Ludewig, who rides for Domina Vacanze, said that Evans' tactics had not been to their liking at all.
"Evans' tactics were out of order," he said.
"He's lost a potential 10 allies after that stunt. None of us were very happy about it. I certainly won't be talking to him."

alanbikehouston

Vino's attitude PLUS Basso's body. Yeah, THAT guy would be fun to watch.

Crack'n'fail

Vino would be 34 years old then. Not a good age for a GC contender. Not that it isn't possible.

With his age, I would be really suprised if he ends up on Discovery next year.

·cmdr···

By the way: Don't know if it was in international media but Andreas Klöden and Matthias Kessler of T-Mobile are injured after the early accident at kilometre 11 today: Klöden has a broken wrist and Kessler is concussed.
The decision about their continuation in the tour will be made tomorrow morning before the start of stage 17.


Jörg Ludewig said "Today I lost a friend" to an interviewer of German TV but did not explain further: "That must be obvious on the TV pictures" he said and went off. After that the presenter had a big big question mark over his head for some seconds.

daytonian

It was nice to see Periero get a win today and some help.

SunSwingsLow

Sad news about the t-mobile boys.

97 Teran

I see... Ludewig doesn't seem too bright... if the break hadn't been allowed to go, maybe they could be annoyed, but... it was allowed to go. Evans wanted a win, I dont see how that affects pissy Ludewig or any other of the break riders in any way.

As so many people on this board complained on Sunday, the strongest man didn't win- Evans was clearly stronger than Pereiro. Big deal. But I don't get the break guys being annoyed, makes no sense.