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Merckx on cavendish

Old 07-09-21, 09:08 PM
  #26  
MinnMan
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
If Merckx doped, he did so at a time when doping was probably more rampant, though less sophisticated, than 1999-2005. Remember, it wasn't too much earlier when DeGaulle asked Anquetil if he used dope when he won, and he responded, a French version of, 'Of course.'
It's not "if". Merckx doped and admitted it.

I mostly don't disagree with your point though. It was a different time. But it wasn't Anquetil's time. Merckx was DQ'ed from major races (the Giro) for doping and as recently as 2007 was asked to stay away from the UCI worlds to not damage the reputation of racing at that time. (That's a laugh, in retrospect).

I'm not criticizing Merckx here. I was responding to a comment that seemed to my ear to be naiive. Maybe I misread it.
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Old 07-10-21, 03:45 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
I think it's Merckx being a **** to be honest here. No one has said Cavendish is greater than him and I don't think Merckx should be reducing the great achievement Cavendish has done. To show how great a sprinter Cavendish is, who's currently 2nd in the number of stage wins at this tour? Overall, Merckx certainly is a better more overall rider to Cavendish but I think it's up to others to say that.
I don't blame Merckx. Most of the articles comparing their stage wins don't really discuss the difference. The average person who doesn't know all the details like we do would assume that Candivish's accomplishment is equal when in reality he's not on the same planet as Merckx.
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Old 07-10-21, 06:22 AM
  #28  
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Cav vs Merckx, 34 wins, that's all noise to me. I just can't believe how incredible DQS has been with the lead outs and what a great comeback Cav has made.

This makes up for the relative lack of GC contention this year. Still lots of exciting riding and stage wins etc, but when there is hot GC contention that raises the bar.
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Old 07-10-21, 07:11 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Everybody knows Merckx doped.
Always wondered how effective the doping was back then compared to now. Anything back then compare to EPO? Didn't Armstrong claim a 10% gain from it?
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Old 07-10-21, 07:42 AM
  #30  
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It's not "if". Merckx doped and admitted it.
I'd really appreciate a lot more honesty from the riders, the teams, the race organizers, and the UCI. I think honesty would make the sport better. Maybe races could show 2 sets of results, doped and un-doped. That should satisfy racers, spectators, and gamblers, too.
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Old 07-10-21, 09:32 AM
  #31  
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Something that isn't even mentioned by the sports casters is how no one currently active as a pro rider is anywhere close to Cavendish.

Marcel Kittel is the first person most might recognize as a recent pro rider, but he retired in 2019 with 14 stage wins. Sagan who is a current riding pro only has 12 stage wins. André Greipel has 11 stage wins.

So only two other pro cyclists currently riding can boast 10 or more stage wins in the TdF.

And only Froome with 7 stage wins, Alaphilippe with 6 stage wins and Nibali with 6 stage wins are even in the top 100 of TdF stage winners that currently still ride.

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race...ost-stage-wins

So yes, that is impressive for someone to achieve what Cavendish has done and might still do.

Although sprinting is just a small part of the TdF. You don't have to win any stage of the TdF to win the TdF. Sprinters are just something that add daily interest to what otherwise is a race with many different races going on.
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Old 07-10-21, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
Cav vs Merckx, 34 wins, that's all noise to me. I just can't believe how incredible DQS has been with the lead outs and what a great comeback Cav has made.

This makes up for the relative lack of GC contention this year. Still lots of exciting riding and stage wins etc, but when there is hot GC contention that raises the bar.
So the lack of sprint contention compensates for the lack of GC contention?

Fortunately, the rest of this race is an exciting hot mess. Unfortunately, a bit of a crash-fest, too.
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Old 07-10-21, 07:58 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
I think it's Merckx being a **** to be honest here. No one has said Cavendish is greater than him and I don't think Merckx should be reducing the great achievement Cavendish has done. To show how great a sprinter Cavendish is, who's currently 2nd in the number of stage wins at this tour? Overall, Merckx certainly is a better more overall rider to Cavendish but I think it's up to others to say that.
Agreed. Merckx doesn't need to remind us about how much better of an overall cyclist he was. We know. The classy thing would be to celebrate Cav's achievement along with everyone else.
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Old 07-11-21, 04:36 PM
  #34  
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I'm not so sure this was not just lost in the translation / the reporter looking for a story. As reported - it doesn't look good.
Merckx winning was so long ago (two generations) I don't see the point in comparing.
Many things were different.
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Old 07-17-21, 02:04 PM
  #35  
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I mean... Merckx isn't wrong, but it would have been classier if he just let everyone else say it. That said, I also think it's not a big deal for him to point it out.

When Cavendish equaled the record I looked it up for myself to compare numbers and was astonished. Not just by the variety of wins Merckx had, but more by the fact that he was in contention for GC at the same time. It seems much different to rack up the stage wins in those conditions rather than effectively putting in less effort on certain days and then setting the road on fire knowing that you don't have to work as hard the next few days. When your day-to-day considerations over the duration of the Tour is simply to survive in between stages you have a shot at winning rather than stay on top it's simply not as impressive - or at least, it's not impressive in the same way.

I think it's also noteworthy that Merckx got that number of wins in fewer Tours, which is something I've not really heard commented on but should be brought up. Also, Merckx was killing it in the Giro during that time, and to a lesser extent the Vuelta. The man was simply on another level that kind of makes any direct comparison on this one aspect seem a little odd.

To be clear, it is amazing Cavendish equaled this record. The next down the list for stage wins is 28, the last win occurring like 35 years ago. In fact, none of the next 10 down the list were anywhere close to being in this era of professional bike racing. That tells me that as the Tour evolved and specialization became more of a factor over all, amassing wins has just become way more difficult. The first person on this record list that is a contemporary of Cavendish is Marcel Kittel, who retired a few years ago with a total of 14 stage wins. Peter Sagan, a couple wins below that, seems like he's got a realistic shot at making a run for it as well.

End of the day, I think the real take away, for me at least, is that the bare number on its own only tells a part of the story.

One last note. I'm not sure how (or even if) this should be taken into account but consider this:even though they've all been voided, in Lance Armstrong's 7 Tours in which he finished 1st in GC he *only* had something like 24-26 stage wins.
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Old 08-04-21, 09:59 PM
  #36  
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Luckily here in Taiwan the sports channels are pretty crap, they like to put on sports that take a lot of time, like tennis, baseball, endurance motor racing etc.. that just means they don't need to think to much about content, we have two channels that are 24 hour snooker....

Luckily road tour cycling fits very nicely into that, so I get all the big European races live and with the time difference i get to watch them live in the evenings.. So with the Tour de France I sat back and watched it all unfold.. and wow.. did it unfold. I had no idea Cav was riding, so it was a pleasant surprise, and ultimately made the race even more enjoyable for me (a brit), and especially as so many great rides got injured through crashes and had to either pull out or nurse injuries.

It was like watching a dream come true that Cav as able to equal the stage win record. Sure, Eddy Merckx was a very special rider, a one off, but times have changed and cycling is now far more technical, team and strategy play a far bigger part that just stamina, strength and pure determination. I don't think anyone compares Cav to Merckx, they are different riders, each great in their own times... it would be like trying to compare Bobby Charlton to Ronaldo... simply cant do that.

Whatever the thoughts on those two riders, for me the Cavendish story made the Tour a little more special. And I don't remember one that wasn't already very special.
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Old 08-05-21, 01:39 AM
  #37  
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Well said 👇


Originally Posted by gurana View Post
I mean... Merckx isn't wrong, but it would have been classier if he just let everyone else say it. That said, I also think it's not a big deal for him to point it out.

When Cavendish equaled the record I looked it up for myself to compare numbers and was astonished. Not just by the variety of wins Merckx had, but more by the fact that he was in contention for GC at the same time. It seems much different to rack up the stage wins in those conditions rather than effectively putting in less effort on certain days and then setting the road on fire knowing that you don't have to work as hard the next few days. When your day-to-day considerations over the duration of the Tour is simply to survive in between stages you have a shot at winning rather than stay on top it's simply not as impressive - or at least, it's not impressive in the same way.

I think it's also noteworthy that Merckx got that number of wins in fewer Tours, which is something I've not really heard commented on but should be brought up. Also, Merckx was killing it in the Giro during that time, and to a lesser extent the Vuelta. The man was simply on another level that kind of makes any direct comparison on this one aspect seem a little odd.

To be clear, it is amazing Cavendish equaled this record. The next down the list for stage wins is 28, the last win occurring like 35 years ago. In fact, none of the next 10 down the list were anywhere close to being in this era of professional bike racing. That tells me that as the Tour evolved and specialization became more of a factor over all, amassing wins has just become way more difficult. The first person on this record list that is a contemporary of Cavendish is Marcel Kittel, who retired a few years ago with a total of 14 stage wins. Peter Sagan, a couple wins below that, seems like he's got a realistic shot at making a run for it as well.

End of the day, I think the real take away, for me at least, is that the bare number on its own only tells a part of the story.

One last note. I'm not sure how (or even if) this should be taken into account but consider this:even though they've all been voided, in Lance Armstrong's 7 Tours in which he finished 1st in GC he *only* had something like 24-26 stage wins.
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Old 08-05-21, 12:13 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
The DQS team is 100% professional. Everyone knows their job and does it to perfection. Cav gives all the credit to his team mates because he knows he wouldn't of won a single stage without them. It's unfortunate that in the record books under his name are the names of those that helped him get to this point.

I know that all prize money is shared with the riders and staff, but we all know who won the Tour, but not the team mates.
Was that like that with Merckx wins?
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Old 08-06-21, 12:42 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by gurana View Post
I mean... Merckx isn't wrong, but it would have been classier if he just let everyone else say it. That said, I also think it's not a big deal for him to point it out.
That's where I am, not a huge deal because he didn't jump on Oprah's couch or anything crazy while saying it, but in this instance I don't think it was even necessary to say anything. All the results speak for themselves.

I mean, he could have just taken a subtle approach and posted a picture online to congratulate Cav taken in his house in front of all his Tour victory jerseys "Lance style".
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