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Do you think Pogacar is doping?

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Do you think Pogacar is doping?

Old 07-20-21, 01:40 PM
  #51  
GrainBrain
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I know you're writing in jest here, but Lithuania and Slovenia are very far apart, both geographically and socially. Why would a putative Lithuanian mad scientist breed Slovenian super-athletes and ignore the more local talent, such as that Polish dude - what's his name?
*Looks at map*
Only 620 miles apart center to center ... that's like Minneapolis to Fayetteville!

And I believe the name you're looking for is Kwiakowskikwiatkowski. I was going to change it in my autocorrect but am channeling the unofficial naming convention presented here by our Patrons. Also he is a world champion and still wicked powerful at his age, he's just been shackled by that Ineos money.

It's not all Jest - Juju was riding for the French army pro team early in his career and he's out of this world amazing at times. The Chinese have just revealed crispr editing on two kids. I'm more shocked not to see craziness from former Soviet countries. It seems the US has too many ethical standards in place.

It's more interesting then plain old doping ... Swapping blood is something any junkie can do.
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Old 07-20-21, 02:31 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
*Looks at map*
Only 620 miles apart center to center ... that's like Minneapolis to Fayetteville!

And I believe the name you're looking for is Kwiakowskikwiatkowski. I was going to change it in my autocorrect but am channeling the unofficial naming convention presented here by our Patrons. Also he is a world champion and still wicked powerful at his age, he's just been shackled by that Ineos money.

It's not all Jest - Juju was riding for the French army pro team early in his career and he's out of this world amazing at times. The Chinese have just revealed crispr editing on two kids. I'm more shocked not to see craziness from former Soviet countries. It seems the US has too many ethical standards in place.

It's more interesting then plain old doping ... Swapping blood is something any junkie can do.
well, if you're not joking, Slovenia is not a former Soviet country and it's much further from Lithuania than Poland.

Slovenia may have more in common with Italy than with Lithuania

Last edited by MinnMan; 07-20-21 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 07-20-21, 04:36 PM
  #53  
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No , but if he keeps winning , a lot of the lesser gifted riders will have to start doping to compete with him.
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Old 07-20-21, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by N2deep View Post
Seriously, does it really matter. With the approval of TUEs supported by the industry and their medical staff almost any drug can be approved and often are for training. Clean up for a few weeks before any race and your home free. .
Vague accusations without any factual backing. Specifically which drugs, known to be approved by UCI with a TUE, will aid a rider in the Tour when taken during training, having been discontinued weeks before the race?
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Old 07-20-21, 04:46 PM
  #55  
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This is the total number of TUE's granted each year by UCI for the entire peloton:

2015 13
2016 15
2017 20
2018 10
2019 9
2020 10

https://ita.sport/uci-therapeutic-use-exemptions/
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Old 07-20-21, 05:12 PM
  #56  
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Actually, I don't know if TUEs approved through national ADAs, and automatically recognized by UCI, are in that count or not. Does anybody know?
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Old 07-20-21, 07:31 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
That's not a logical interpretation, I just want people to take account of a rider's history of drug (blood doping) use, denial and that he is still performing at a high level at age 41. Why is there all this focus on a young guy like Pogacar (aged 22) when most laud the performance (one stage 2nd place and 24th on GC) of this guy at the end of his career? History shows that often it's riders coming towards the end that have most to gain and least to loose by doping.

Why pick on Pogacar rather than you know who?
Who ?
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Old 07-20-21, 07:32 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Maybe so. What's the justifiable reason he won't release real data when his reputation is on the line?
Why should he release numbers ? Seems like it would only benefit his rivals.
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Old 07-20-21, 07:36 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Why should he release numbers ? Seems like it would only benefit his rivals.
Already answered the first question. And already pointed out above that many of his rivals post their power data. What is he afraid of that they aren't?
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Old 07-20-21, 09:16 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Who ?
The Green Bullet. Who else?
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Old 07-20-21, 10:47 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Who ?
Alejandro Valverde.
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Old 07-20-21, 11:03 PM
  #62  
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Since we're wondering about possible dope use just because of performance, why aren't we asking about Vingegaard? Decent, not spectacular as a youth. Decent, not spectacular as a pro. No special form this year. Then runner-up in the Tour?? Only a couple minutes back if we exclude the time lost trying to get Roglic back. Pogacar at least has shown excellent form this year, with a big win in one of the Classics and a stage race. (Though if you pressed me, I'd have to give Vingegaard the benefit of the doubt as well. At least for now.)
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Old 07-21-21, 12:34 AM
  #63  
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this thread has legs...
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Old 07-21-21, 12:42 AM
  #64  
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maan...what i would give to drop an in-his-prime vino(kourov) or indurain or pantani or garzelli or chava jimenez or dickie v
into one of the gt's...let's say stage eight till the end...just for giggles."you can't win the tour on mineral water alone."

drop tadej into the group above...feeling confident he's holding his own on whatever course/length.

Last edited by ooga-booga; 07-21-21 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 07-21-21, 07:36 AM
  #65  
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Remember when people used to defend Lance Armstrong and say he wasn't doping either?

Again...all of these sports players are doing it. It's just a matter of who can hide it the best.

Journalist Hans Halter wrote in 1998 that "For as long as the Tour has existed, since 1903, its participants have been doping themselves. For 60 years doping was allowed. For the past 30 years it has been officially prohibited. Yet the fact remains; great cyclists have been doping themselves, then and now."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping...Tour_de_France

Last edited by prj71; 07-21-21 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:48 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by ooga-booga View Post
this thread has legs...
I think it's doping.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:49 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Remember when people used to defend Lance Armstrong and say he wasn't doping either?
Mostly Americans.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:52 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Remember when people used to defend Lance Armstrong and say he wasn't doping either?

Again...all of these sports players are doing it. It's just a matter of who can hide it the best.

Journalist Hans Halter wrote in 1998 that "For as long as the Tour has existed, since 1903, its participants have been doping themselves. For 60 years doping was allowed. For the past 30 years it has been officially prohibited. Yet the fact remains; great cyclists have been doping themselves, then and now."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping...Tour_de_France

This.

I mean here is a guy that until he pissed off the wrong folks, and the right number of them, suddenly was a witch hunt to show the proof. They went around the damned mountain pulling everyone they could in order to build up enough people saying it that the sport could no longer simply look the other way. It wasn't that anyone didn't (truly) suspect it. There had been allegations for several of those last years. He just had to be a big enough prick about it in his response that the powers that be opted to make it into the embarrassment not only for Lance, but for the sport.
I didn't really WANT to reference him in this thread, but it is a super high profile case of exactly the kind of stuff we have three pages of argument about now.

Even earlier in this post someone referenced Pogacar's time against Lance (and a few others? I didn't go back to look for sure). Well, we now know that those referenced cyclists WERE doping, Pogacar is right on that time, but he is clean? Maybe I am missing something.
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Old 07-21-21, 09:28 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
Even earlier in this post someone referenced Pogacar's time against Lance (and a few others? I didn't go back to look for sure). Well, we now know that those referenced cyclists WERE doping, Pogacar is right on that time, but he is clean? Maybe I am missing something.
You're not the only one.
Where were the comparisons made? I can't find them.
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Old 07-21-21, 12:31 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
You're not the only one.
Where were the comparisons made? I can't find them.
Grumble, no I cannot find the reference either. I thought it was somewhere in the first page...
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Old 07-21-21, 02:07 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
Grumble, no I cannot find the reference either. I thought it was somewhere in the first page...
I think it was the "is cycling clean thread" where some yeahoo started screaming after stage 8
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Old 07-21-21, 04:43 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Remember when people used to defend Lance Armstrong and say he wasn't doping either?
For those following the sport, it was really obvious he was.

Journalist Hans Halter wrote in 1998 that "For as long as the Tour has existed, since 1903, its participants have been doping themselves. For 60 years doping was allowed. For the past 30 years it has been officially prohibited. Yet the fact remains; great cyclists have been doping themselves, then and now."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping...Tour_de_France
Well, obviously. But most of us could just about hold our noses when dope was the marginal difference. The difference between that era and the one Conconi/Ferrari ushered in was that ability and drive became marginal. Dope was determinative. No way the dope of an earlier era could have transformed a 30 yr old domestique into Mr 60% or a middling time trialler who got shelled on the climbs into a 7-time Tour winner. Not to excuse the dope of the earlier era -- but at least back then it was still a contest between athletes.
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Old 07-22-21, 01:37 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
This.

I mean here is a guy that until he pissed off the wrong folks, and the right number of them, suddenly was a witch hunt to show the proof. They went around the damned mountain pulling everyone they could in order to build up enough people saying it that the sport could no longer simply look the other way. It wasn't that anyone didn't (truly) suspect it. There had been allegations for several of those last years. He just had to be a big enough prick about it in his response that the powers that be opted to make it into the embarrassment not only for Lance, but for the sport.
I didn't really WANT to reference him in this thread, but it is a super high profile case of exactly the kind of stuff we have three pages of argument about now.

Even earlier in this post someone referenced Pogacar's time against Lance (and a few others? I didn't go back to look for sure). Well, we now know that those referenced cyclists WERE doping, Pogacar is right on that time, but he is clean? Maybe I am missing something.
Most Americans will always doubt Armstrongs conviction. Im not standing up or defending Armstrong only the method used to obtain the conviction. Armstrong pass all the tests under the cycling worlds protocol. Then the dumb ass Americans decide to prove a point and attack him with all of their considerable resources and he admits guilt. The point is that they have the resources to make anyone and I mean anyone say what ever they want them to say. They not only use fleets of lawyers but routinely use the Rico statutes, which strips the defendant of all resources needed to defend themselves (freeze all bank accounts, prevents them from selling properties, transferring funds). In short, they system is rigged in the states favor and no conviction by the state or feds is fair.
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Old 07-22-21, 02:37 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
This.

I mean here is a guy that until he pissed off the wrong folks, and the right number of them, suddenly was a witch hunt to show the proof. They went around the damned mountain pulling everyone they could in order to build up enough people saying it that the sport could no longer simply look the other way. It wasn't that anyone didn't (truly) suspect it. There had been allegations for several of those last years. He just had to be a big enough prick about it in his response that the powers that be opted to make it into the embarrassment not only for Lance, but for the sport.
I didn't really WANT to reference him in this thread, but it is a super high profile case of exactly the kind of stuff we have three pages of argument about now.

Even earlier in this post someone referenced Pogacar's time against Lance (and a few others? I didn't go back to look for sure). Well, we now know that those referenced cyclists WERE doping, Pogacar is right on that time, but he is clean? Maybe I am missing something.
A point about Pogacar and LA. Pogacar has been phenomenal all his life. Seems to be made to climb, ride 3 week tours, TT well enough to hold his own against the GC guys. (Reminds me a lot of a young Greg Lemond.) LA before his cancer and EPO was a very good one day classic rider who never impressed uphill. He could finish grand tours, maybe win a stage, but mountains were not his friend and he posed zero threat on GC.

So - Pogacar in his element can match times that Armstrong could only have done with massive amounts of EPO and the like? Is that really a surprise? Does that incriminate Pogacar?
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Old 07-22-21, 06:09 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by N2deep View Post
Most Americans will always doubt Armstrongs conviction. Im not standing up or defending Armstrong only the method used to obtain the conviction. Armstrong pass all the tests under the cycling worlds protocol. Then the dumb ass Americans decide to prove a point and attack him with all of their considerable resources and he admits guilt. The point is that they have the resources to make anyone and I mean anyone say what ever they want them to say. They not only use fleets of lawyers but routinely use the Rico statutes, which strips the defendant of all resources needed to defend themselves (freeze all bank accounts, prevents them from selling properties, transferring funds). In short, they system is rigged in the states favor and no conviction by the state or feds is fair.
You're entitled to your narrative, which sounds suspiciously like other spiels one finds in today's political realm, but...

No, that's not how it went down.

And no, this is not going to devolve into another LA thread. Not going there.
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