Do you think Pogacar is doping?
07-23-21, 02:36 PM
#76
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,470
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I don't, but I still think he won 7 tours. I still think he was the greatest TdF rider of all time. The great Eddy was sanctioned 2 (or 3 I forget) times. Pogacar (and Lance) have not been sanctioned once by anything the officials found.
I'm a leave it on the field kinda guy. In a sport much larger than cycling, Diego Maradona handled the ball to score against England and win that World Cup game. Later (20 years or so) - he admitted it. But the score stood, because, at the time those who officiated the event decided Argentina won. There are still tainted blood samples from the '84 Olympics. Someone cheated and likely has a Gold. I'm a bit so-what about that.
If in 20 years if Pog admits he doped, I'd still give him the credit for two TdF wins.
But I don't think he is doping.
I'm a leave it on the field kinda guy. In a sport much larger than cycling, Diego Maradona handled the ball to score against England and win that World Cup game. Later (20 years or so) - he admitted it. But the score stood, because, at the time those who officiated the event decided Argentina won. There are still tainted blood samples from the '84 Olympics. Someone cheated and likely has a Gold. I'm a bit so-what about that.
If in 20 years if Pog admits he doped, I'd still give him the credit for two TdF wins.
But I don't think he is doping.
Last edited by Doge; 07-23-21 at 05:17 PM.
Likes For Doge:
07-30-21, 02:34 PM
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked 66 Times
in
48 Posts
I won't claim to know if he's (edit: Pogacar) doping. But, he won this race by 5 minutes over three weeks. He had no significant crashes or mechanicals, one bad day where he manged to lose little time and few crashes by teammates; all of whom finished. In other works, he and his teammates simply did what you do to win the Tour de France. (Doing all this doesn't guarantee the win. But failing to do so makes winning very difficult.)
By contrast - every single one of the competing GC teams erred on at least one of those basic principals or spent inordinate amounts of work for marginal gains, work that cost heavily in the days after. (Carapz's huge effort to gain nothing the day before the Alps. Next day a fresh Pogacar put minutes on him.)
Pogacar has shown himself to be a riding star from his early years of racing. Now maybe he has been "on program" since his junior days. He also might just be a very good GC rider who rides smart and is on a GC focused team that also rides smart. That adds up to a combo you simply cannot give minutes to. This year, every other team did exactly that. And guess what? He won by minutes. Five. Not a quarter of an hour, not by anything massive.
By contrast - Jumbo. Leader who is fully Pagacar's equal crashed out. While Roglic was still there, Vingegaard sacrificed time working for him. So, relative to Pogacar, minutes lost. Other Jumbo teammates also crashed out. They finished with 4 riders, three to support Vingegaard. The Tour is too hard. If you want to win, you have to do better on that score.
So, final podium - second place is a rider who already gave up minutes before becoming team leader on a very reduced squad. He still finished barely over 5 minutes behind. Third place is a rider who made a "fatal" mistake of going way too hard for nothing the day before the serious mountains. On a squad that was split its focus between several riders and losing a lot of manpower to crashes. Say 5 minutes loss due to the mismanagement of effort by Carapaz and another two to poor team support. He finished 7 minutes back.
Pogacar might have been doping. But just a good look at how the race played out doesn't suggest it.
By contrast - every single one of the competing GC teams erred on at least one of those basic principals or spent inordinate amounts of work for marginal gains, work that cost heavily in the days after. (Carapz's huge effort to gain nothing the day before the Alps. Next day a fresh Pogacar put minutes on him.)
Pogacar has shown himself to be a riding star from his early years of racing. Now maybe he has been "on program" since his junior days. He also might just be a very good GC rider who rides smart and is on a GC focused team that also rides smart. That adds up to a combo you simply cannot give minutes to. This year, every other team did exactly that. And guess what? He won by minutes. Five. Not a quarter of an hour, not by anything massive.
By contrast - Jumbo. Leader who is fully Pagacar's equal crashed out. While Roglic was still there, Vingegaard sacrificed time working for him. So, relative to Pogacar, minutes lost. Other Jumbo teammates also crashed out. They finished with 4 riders, three to support Vingegaard. The Tour is too hard. If you want to win, you have to do better on that score.
So, final podium - second place is a rider who already gave up minutes before becoming team leader on a very reduced squad. He still finished barely over 5 minutes behind. Third place is a rider who made a "fatal" mistake of going way too hard for nothing the day before the serious mountains. On a squad that was split its focus between several riders and losing a lot of manpower to crashes. Say 5 minutes loss due to the mismanagement of effort by Carapaz and another two to poor team support. He finished 7 minutes back.
Pogacar might have been doping. But just a good look at how the race played out doesn't suggest it.
08-06-21, 05:07 PM
#78
Senior Member
Most Americans initially thought Armstrong was clean. Then as the evidence piled up, they finally gave in and accepted that Armstrong, their cancer fighting hero, was a massive systemic doper.
But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.
But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.
In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.
But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.
In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
08-07-21, 05:40 AM
#79
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 444
Bikes: 1990 Trek 850, 2005 Cannondale R1000, 2019 Cannondale Topstone 105
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times
in
21 Posts
Also, let's not forget that LA did test positive at least once in 1999, but the UCI president made the findings go away.
Likes For Prodigy4299:
08-07-21, 09:37 AM
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,470
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I think many people would agree with you if he hadn't also been a world class bully. Armstrong not only doped, but he also used his cancer cloak and clout to destroy the lives of anyone who dared to question him.
Also, let's not forget that LA did test positive at least once in 1999, but the UCI president made the findings go away.
Also, let's not forget that LA did test positive at least once in 1999, but the UCI president made the findings go away.
I know Lance doped.
I know Lance was not a nice guy.
I know he was caught - but never sanctioned (which is what I posted).
My thinking is Eddie was doped most of the time and only sanctioned 4 times. But he was a nice guy and a Belgium. And we already know the list of others that doped and were sanctioned or later admitted it.
For those reasons, I think he deserves to be known as the best TdF rider of all time. That may change in 5 years, but for now, Lance holds that title for me.
08-09-21, 07:25 AM
#81
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,793
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times
in
204 Posts
Most Americans initially thought Armstrong was clean. Then as the evidence piled up, they finally gave in and accepted that Armstrong, their cancer fighting hero, was a massive systemic doper.
But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.
But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.
In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.
But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.
In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
Likes For OBoile:
08-09-21, 07:34 AM
#82
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,091 Times
in
1,310 Posts
Most Americans initially thought Armstrong was clean. Then as the evidence piled up, they finally gave in and accepted that Armstrong, their cancer fighting hero, was a massive systemic doper.
But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.
But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.
In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.
But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.
In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
Where you get your facts?
08-09-21, 07:51 AM
#83
Senior Member
oh sure, you guys wanted him prosecuted after years of him abusing your trust, and that made you hurt, didn't it? So you wanted to prosecute your former hero not necessarily because he doped and cheated, but because he lied to you, broken your trust, broken your mythology of Lance Armstrong, the greastest American cyclist to race the TdF and shove it up the Euro asses.
But whenever a non-American cyclist great come along, and he wins races, then you immediately say "oh oh, he's doping, been there, seen that before. Then let's reinstate Lance's victories". You yanks are world famous for your bs mental gymnastic when it comes to assessing non-Americans.
I don't hear Americans criticize much about Chris Horner's (an American) amazing Vuelta performance at age 41 beating down a bunch of 20somthing guys, huh? What has Horner won before Vuelta at 41 again? But hey let's criticize a 22 year old from Slovenia without a shred of evidence. Let's make demands of the 22 yr old to show us his numbers or else we'll brand him as guilty. Yep, American exceptionalism its finest.
That poster Doge up there, he's from Socal based on his profile. Oh yeah, Socal, the land of Masters doping at its finest. No wonder he worships Lance. "Lance is still the greatest TdF riders". lol the kind of mental compartmentalization it must take to perpetuate such statement can only be "Made in America".
But whenever a non-American cyclist great come along, and he wins races, then you immediately say "oh oh, he's doping, been there, seen that before. Then let's reinstate Lance's victories". You yanks are world famous for your bs mental gymnastic when it comes to assessing non-Americans.
I don't hear Americans criticize much about Chris Horner's (an American) amazing Vuelta performance at age 41 beating down a bunch of 20somthing guys, huh? What has Horner won before Vuelta at 41 again? But hey let's criticize a 22 year old from Slovenia without a shred of evidence. Let's make demands of the 22 yr old to show us his numbers or else we'll brand him as guilty. Yep, American exceptionalism its finest.
That poster Doge up there, he's from Socal based on his profile. Oh yeah, Socal, the land of Masters doping at its finest. No wonder he worships Lance. "Lance is still the greatest TdF riders". lol the kind of mental compartmentalization it must take to perpetuate such statement can only be "Made in America".
08-09-21, 08:12 AM
#84
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,091 Times
in
1,310 Posts
oh sure, you guys wanted him prosecuted after years of him abusing your trust, and that made you hurt, didn't it? So you wanted to prosecute your former hero not necessarily because he doped and cheated, but because he lied to you, broken your trust, broken your mythology of Lance Armstrong, the greastest American cyclist to race the TdF and shove it up the Euro asses.
But whenever a non-American cyclist great come along, and he wins races, then you immediately say "oh oh, he's doping, been there, seen that before. Then let's reinstate Lance's victories". You yanks are world famous for your bs mental gymnastic when it comes to assessing non-Americans.
I don't hear Americans criticize much about Chris Horner's (an American) amazing Vuelta performance at age 41 beating down a bunch of 20somthing guys, huh? What has Horner won before Vuelta at 41 again? But hey let's criticize a 22 year old from Slovenia without a shred of evidence. Let's make demands of the 22 yr old to show us his numbers or else we'll brand him as guilty. Yep, American exceptionalism its finest.
That poster Doge up there, he's from Socal based on his profile. Oh yeah, Socal, the land of Masters doping at its finest. No wonder he worships Lance. "Lance is still the greatest TdF riders". lol the kind of mental compartmentalization it must take to perpetuate such statement can only be "Made in America".
But whenever a non-American cyclist great come along, and he wins races, then you immediately say "oh oh, he's doping, been there, seen that before. Then let's reinstate Lance's victories". You yanks are world famous for your bs mental gymnastic when it comes to assessing non-Americans.
I don't hear Americans criticize much about Chris Horner's (an American) amazing Vuelta performance at age 41 beating down a bunch of 20somthing guys, huh? What has Horner won before Vuelta at 41 again? But hey let's criticize a 22 year old from Slovenia without a shred of evidence. Let's make demands of the 22 yr old to show us his numbers or else we'll brand him as guilty. Yep, American exceptionalism its finest.
That poster Doge up there, he's from Socal based on his profile. Oh yeah, Socal, the land of Masters doping at its finest. No wonder he worships Lance. "Lance is still the greatest TdF riders". lol the kind of mental compartmentalization it must take to perpetuate such statement can only be "Made in America".
Once Lemond made his statements, I was very suspicious. But Lance never tested positive in competition. It is important to keep that fact in mind when considering how popular he was during his time in the Tour. At the time, I thought some of his performance climbing could be attributed to the extreme loss of body mass post cancer but the increased power levels did not make sense. He had a long history of endurance sports and one does not see the kind of jumps that he had. Similar to Indurain, he went from a lousy climber and dropping out of Tours to winning. But only after working with the good doctor Conconi. Humm?
08-09-21, 11:08 PM
#85
Full Member
I have no idea whether Indurain was clean or not but he was never a poor climber. His only road stage wins in the tour were mountain stages with uphill finishes. At Cauterets he was the rabbit that was allowed to win because Delgado had already dropped Lemond and Fignon; at Luz Ardiden he was marking Lemond and when it was clear Delgado was dropped had to make sure Lemond didn't get max time bonuses (even then commentators were wondering if Reynolds hadn't backed the wrong horse that year). His early pro form was also good, with wins at Paris-Nice and smaller stage races like Catalunya, so he didn't come out of nowhere. But he was brought in slowly to the Tour (and his personality wasn't one that would demand being the team number 1).
As for the Conconi connection (which was supposedly for asthma) ... interestingly when the files of Conconi, Ferrari, and Fuentes were raided only a couple of big names did not show up for PEDs. Lemond was one ... and Indurain was another. Not to say he didn't get dope elsewhere -- but anyone who was serious about PEDs went to either Ferrari or Conconi.
08-12-21, 06:33 AM
#86
I’m a little Surly
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near the district
Posts: 2,414
Bikes: Two Cross Checks, a Karate Monkey, and a Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Liked 1,260 Times
in
637 Posts
The pro peloton has been doped up since there was a pro peloton it's not changed now they're just ahead of the testers like they were in the era we're talking about. My favorite rider of the era was Ulrich, he was doped to the gills but that doesn't make him any less my favorite rider.
08-16-21, 04:28 AM
#87
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 444
Bikes: 1990 Trek 850, 2005 Cannondale R1000, 2019 Cannondale Topstone 105
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times
in
21 Posts
The pro peloton has been doped up since there was a pro peloton it's not changed now they're just ahead of the testers like they were in the era we're talking about. My favorite rider of the era was Ulrich, he was doped to the gills but that doesn't make him any less my favorite rider.
My interpretation is that the bio passport (despite all of its limitations) put a cap on the volume of doping. I just do not think that it is as widespread and as rampant as it used to be. Based on things I read, I get the sense rather that we're seeing more borderline, grey areas of medical abuse (marginal gains, innit?) allowed through TUEs.
08-31-21, 07:35 AM
#89
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,396
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 1,557 Times
in
967 Posts
I don't, but I still think he won 7 tours. I still think he was the greatest TdF rider of all time. The great Eddy was sanctioned 2 (or 3 I forget) times. Pogacar (and Lance) have not been sanctioned once by anything the officials found.
I'm a leave it on the field kinda guy. In a sport much larger than cycling, Diego Maradona handled the ball to score against England and win that World Cup game. Later (20 years or so) - he admitted it. But the score stood, because, at the time those who officiated the event decided Argentina won. There are still tainted blood samples from the '84 Olympics. Someone cheated and likely has a Gold. I'm a bit so-what about that.
If in 20 years if Pog admits he doped, I'd still give him the credit for two TdF wins.
But I don't think he is doping.
I'm a leave it on the field kinda guy. In a sport much larger than cycling, Diego Maradona handled the ball to score against England and win that World Cup game. Later (20 years or so) - he admitted it. But the score stood, because, at the time those who officiated the event decided Argentina won. There are still tainted blood samples from the '84 Olympics. Someone cheated and likely has a Gold. I'm a bit so-what about that.
If in 20 years if Pog admits he doped, I'd still give him the credit for two TdF wins.
But I don't think he is doping.
To add my personal feels on the issue, anytime it's an American suspected of doping.........the claws come out. International star? Nah, they're still a legend. Guy dies doped up climbing Ventoux. Statue, that folks stop and pay tribute at. Guy dies doing coke that was a known doper........legend, halfway apologetic Netflix doc.
I hear all the time about "but that was the culture when Simpson died" or "when Pantani died". Oh, and it WASN'T the culture when Lance did it? Righhhhhhttt. Americans were whooping a$% in the euro dominated sport with the panache of typical GOATs of more localized American sports.......ala Jordan. And it drove people nuts.
Thing is, when American centric sports have athletes go positive.....nobody cares. Because we aren't "beating" other countries at "their" sport. Bonds, Sosa, McGuire......et. al. Shoot, even if Jordan came out and said he doped.
Then there's the whole fact that the GOATs of many sports have been pretty unapologetic about being ruthless in their pursuits. Anybody watch the Jordan docuseries? Shoot, I think Jordan and Lance mentality isn't that far separated.
I think, for now, that Pog has called people's bluff on the marginal gains team tactics of the Sky era by daring them to break their plan to chase or risk losing out sitting in. And they lose out sitting in.
Generally, world wide........we need to stop assuming a few things:
-that our heroes are all clean as a whistle role models for kids
-that everyone else's heroes are dirty
-that we aren't at the end of the day seeing entertainment and money driving things
10-19-21, 03:07 PM
#90
Junior Member
Time will lead us to suspect doping or not. I think of how Chris Froome, who was unbelievable like Pogacar, is now just an ordinary Pro. He is healed from his injuries and is nothing of his past dominance. How do you go from such dominance to ordinary so quickly?
10-20-21, 12:32 AM
#91
Senior Member
Froome may or may not have doped, but we won't know. However, what we do know is that your comparison of him to doping is a false equivalency. A high speed crash at 50 kph into a stone wall will do that to most people. It has very little to do with doping and a lot to do with the body's diminished ability to recover with age.
10-20-21, 04:46 AM
#92
bored of "Senior Member"
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,800
Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 622 Post(s)
Liked 537 Times
in
416 Posts
Froome's rise to and fall from the ionosphere are credibly bookended by bilharzia and trauma.
Any outsized talent like Pogacar can be made more believable by waving the doping wand. That's a small minded approach. The simple fact is that he and others are unbelievable specimens to begin with. Table stakes are almost that you must suspend disbelief to even contemplate their output.
You don't have to suspend suspicion or monitoring. But until there is a tangible finding to discuss, this "do you think" stuff is a dog that doesn't hunt.
Any outsized talent like Pogacar can be made more believable by waving the doping wand. That's a small minded approach. The simple fact is that he and others are unbelievable specimens to begin with. Table stakes are almost that you must suspend disbelief to even contemplate their output.
You don't have to suspend suspicion or monitoring. But until there is a tangible finding to discuss, this "do you think" stuff is a dog that doesn't hunt.
10-22-21, 10:01 PM
#93
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,627
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,785 Times
in
1,698 Posts
Likes For MinnMan:
10-22-21, 10:16 PM
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,627
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,785 Times
in
1,698 Posts
As a vague accusation, this isn't even coherent. In this scenario, to attribute his pre-crash performance to doping, you'd have to formulate a reason why he stopped taking that magic elixir post-crash.
10-24-21, 09:43 AM
#95
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Central Io-way
Posts: 2,627
Bikes: LeMond Zurich, Giant Talon 29er
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1199 Post(s)
Liked 588 Times
in
443 Posts
Hilarious that this thread popped back up after this Tizanidine report; but not to comment on this new found "revelation" but instead criticize Froome's incredible recovery. Dude shattered his pelvis at retirement age for the peloton yet is back to WT level (well, Pro level honestly). I mean that's an incredible feat - most people would still be in rehab now. I have a close family member that broke their hip and I've seen first hand how difficult recovery is.
02-27-22, 10:18 AM
#96
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,865
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3570 Post(s)
Liked 933 Times
in
705 Posts
I hope he's not, but that's the romantic side of me wanting to see a truly great cyclist race. However, considering the history of the peloton...one cannot help, but to wonder. And now it seems like doping isn't such a black and white topic nowadays.
Likes For work4bike:
03-01-22, 01:50 PM
#97
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: insane diego, california
Posts: 8,197
Bikes: 85 pinarello treviso steel, 88 nishiki olympic steel. 95 look kg 131 carbon, 11 trek madone 5.2 carbon
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Liked 2,988 Times
in
1,624 Posts
already wanted to hit slovenia. this didn't exactly change my mind.
Last edited by diphthong; 03-01-22 at 01:53 PM.
Likes For diphthong:
Likes For slcbob:
03-10-22, 12:57 PM
#100
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: insane diego, california
Posts: 8,197
Bikes: 85 pinarello treviso steel, 88 nishiki olympic steel. 95 look kg 131 carbon, 11 trek madone 5.2 carbon
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Liked 2,988 Times
in
1,624 Posts
Likes For diphthong:
