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Do you think Pogacar is doping?

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Do you think Pogacar is doping?

Old 07-23-21, 02:36 PM
  #76  
Doge
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Originally Posted by N2deep View Post
Most Americans will always doubt Armstrongs conviction. ..
I don't, but I still think he won 7 tours. I still think he was the greatest TdF rider of all time. The great Eddy was sanctioned 2 (or 3 I forget) times. Pogacar (and Lance) have not been sanctioned once by anything the officials found.

I'm a leave it on the field kinda guy. In a sport much larger than cycling, Diego Maradona handled the ball to score against England and win that World Cup game. Later (20 years or so) - he admitted it. But the score stood, because, at the time those who officiated the event decided Argentina won. There are still tainted blood samples from the '84 Olympics. Someone cheated and likely has a Gold. I'm a bit so-what about that.

If in 20 years if Pog admits he doped, I'd still give him the credit for two TdF wins.

But I don't think he is doping.

Last edited by Doge; 07-23-21 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 07-30-21, 02:34 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I won't claim to know if he's (edit: Pogacar) doping. But, he won this race by 5 minutes over three weeks. He had no significant crashes or mechanicals, one bad day where he manged to lose little time and few crashes by teammates; all of whom finished. In other works, he and his teammates simply did what you do to win the Tour de France. (Doing all this doesn't guarantee the win. But failing to do so makes winning very difficult.)

By contrast - every single one of the competing GC teams erred on at least one of those basic principals or spent inordinate amounts of work for marginal gains, work that cost heavily in the days after. (Carapz's huge effort to gain nothing the day before the Alps. Next day a fresh Pogacar put minutes on him.)

Pogacar has shown himself to be a riding star from his early years of racing. Now maybe he has been "on program" since his junior days. He also might just be a very good GC rider who rides smart and is on a GC focused team that also rides smart. That adds up to a combo you simply cannot give minutes to. This year, every other team did exactly that. And guess what? He won by minutes. Five. Not a quarter of an hour, not by anything massive.

By contrast - Jumbo. Leader who is fully Pagacar's equal crashed out. While Roglic was still there, Vingegaard sacrificed time working for him. So, relative to Pogacar, minutes lost. Other Jumbo teammates also crashed out. They finished with 4 riders, three to support Vingegaard. The Tour is too hard. If you want to win, you have to do better on that score.

So, final podium - second place is a rider who already gave up minutes before becoming team leader on a very reduced squad. He still finished barely over 5 minutes behind. Third place is a rider who made a "fatal" mistake of going way too hard for nothing the day before the serious mountains. On a squad that was split its focus between several riders and losing a lot of manpower to crashes. Say 5 minutes loss due to the mismanagement of effort by Carapaz and another two to poor team support. He finished 7 minutes back.

Pogacar might have been doping. But just a good look at how the race played out doesn't suggest it.
Remember, Jumbo-Visma were ground zero for the genius who stepped into.the road to.show their sign to TV. Roglic's downfall started there.
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Old 08-06-21, 05:07 PM
  #78  
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Most Americans initially thought Armstrong was clean. Then as the evidence piled up, they finally gave in and accepted that Armstrong, their cancer fighting hero, was a massive systemic doper.

But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.

But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.

In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
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Old 08-07-21, 05:40 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I don't, but I still think he won 7 tours. I still think he was the greatest TdF rider of all time. The great Eddy was sanctioned 2 (or 3 I forget) times. Pogacar (and Lance) have not been sanctioned once by anything the officials found.
I think many people would agree with you if he hadn't also been a world class bully. Armstrong not only doped, but he also used his cancer cloak and clout to destroy the lives of anyone who dared to question him.

Also, let's not forget that LA did test positive at least once in 1999, but the UCI president made the findings go away.
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Old 08-07-21, 09:37 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Prodigy4299 View Post
I think many people would agree with you if he hadn't also been a world class bully. Armstrong not only doped, but he also used his cancer cloak and clout to destroy the lives of anyone who dared to question him.

Also, let's not forget that LA did test positive at least once in 1999, but the UCI president made the findings go away.
The insurance company wants to know how many convictions you had, not how often you think you broke the law. Likewise, being a bully might get you a ticket from an officer for speeding, but it has nothing to do with cycling other than maybe getting others to work for you or not. Lance understood that too. He was so masterful on planning and preparing and I think that is often overlooked.

I know Lance doped.
I know Lance was not a nice guy.
I know he was caught - but never sanctioned (which is what I posted).

My thinking is Eddie was doped most of the time and only sanctioned 4 times. But he was a nice guy and a Belgium. And we already know the list of others that doped and were sanctioned or later admitted it.
For those reasons, I think he deserves to be known as the best TdF rider of all time. That may change in 5 years, but for now, Lance holds that title for me.
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Old 08-09-21, 07:25 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Most Americans initially thought Armstrong was clean. Then as the evidence piled up, they finally gave in and accepted that Armstrong, their cancer fighting hero, was a massive systemic doper.

But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.

But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.

In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
I'm not American, and I think pretty much everyone can be just as hypocritical about things like this.
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Old 08-09-21, 07:34 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Most Americans initially thought Armstrong was clean. Then as the evidence piled up, they finally gave in and accepted that Armstrong, their cancer fighting hero, was a massive systemic doper.

But then most Americans also still think highly of Armstrong to this day.

But whenever a non-American athelte do something great, then all of the sudden it's "DOPING"! And the example they would use is Armstrong.

In conclusion, Americans are a special kind of hypocritical breed when it comes to assessing anyone non-American. You Americans can argue just about anything in just about anyway.
64% of Americans wanted him prosecuted.

Where you get your facts?
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Old 08-09-21, 07:51 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
64% of Americans wanted him prosecuted.

Where you get your facts?
oh sure, you guys wanted him prosecuted after years of him abusing your trust, and that made you hurt, didn't it? So you wanted to prosecute your former hero not necessarily because he doped and cheated, but because he lied to you, broken your trust, broken your mythology of Lance Armstrong, the greastest American cyclist to race the TdF and shove it up the Euro asses.

But whenever a non-American cyclist great come along, and he wins races, then you immediately say "oh oh, he's doping, been there, seen that before. Then let's reinstate Lance's victories". You yanks are world famous for your bs mental gymnastic when it comes to assessing non-Americans.

I don't hear Americans criticize much about Chris Horner's (an American) amazing Vuelta performance at age 41 beating down a bunch of 20somthing guys, huh? What has Horner won before Vuelta at 41 again? But hey let's criticize a 22 year old from Slovenia without a shred of evidence. Let's make demands of the 22 yr old to show us his numbers or else we'll brand him as guilty. Yep, American exceptionalism its finest.

That poster Doge up there, he's from Socal based on his profile. Oh yeah, Socal, the land of Masters doping at its finest. No wonder he worships Lance. "Lance is still the greatest TdF riders". lol the kind of mental compartmentalization it must take to perpetuate such statement can only be "Made in America".
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Old 08-09-21, 08:12 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
oh sure, you guys wanted him prosecuted after years of him abusing your trust, and that made you hurt, didn't it? So you wanted to prosecute your former hero not necessarily because he doped and cheated, but because he lied to you, broken your trust, broken your mythology of Lance Armstrong, the greastest American cyclist to race the TdF and shove it up the Euro asses.

But whenever a non-American cyclist great come along, and he wins races, then you immediately say "oh oh, he's doping, been there, seen that before. Then let's reinstate Lance's victories". You yanks are world famous for your bs mental gymnastic when it comes to assessing non-Americans.

I don't hear Americans criticize much about Chris Horner's (an American) amazing Vuelta performance at age 41 beating down a bunch of 20somthing guys, huh? What has Horner won before Vuelta at 41 again? But hey let's criticize a 22 year old from Slovenia without a shred of evidence. Let's make demands of the 22 yr old to show us his numbers or else we'll brand him as guilty. Yep, American exceptionalism its finest.

That poster Doge up there, he's from Socal based on his profile. Oh yeah, Socal, the land of Masters doping at its finest. No wonder he worships Lance. "Lance is still the greatest TdF riders". lol the kind of mental compartmentalization it must take to perpetuate such statement can only be "Made in America".
I really have no idea how others feel, my paint brush is pretty wide but not that wide. From my small circle, Lance is dirt. I said in this thread that I did not think Pogacar doped.

Once Lemond made his statements, I was very suspicious. But Lance never tested positive in competition. It is important to keep that fact in mind when considering how popular he was during his time in the Tour. At the time, I thought some of his performance climbing could be attributed to the extreme loss of body mass post cancer but the increased power levels did not make sense. He had a long history of endurance sports and one does not see the kind of jumps that he had. Similar to Indurain, he went from a lousy climber and dropping out of Tours to winning. But only after working with the good doctor Conconi. Humm?
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Old 08-09-21, 11:08 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Similar to Indurain, he went from a lousy climber and dropping out of Tours to winning. But only after working with the good doctor Conconi. Humm?

I have no idea whether Indurain was clean or not but he was never a poor climber. His only road stage wins in the tour were mountain stages with uphill finishes. At Cauterets he was the rabbit that was allowed to win because Delgado had already dropped Lemond and Fignon; at Luz Ardiden he was marking Lemond and when it was clear Delgado was dropped had to make sure Lemond didn't get max time bonuses (even then commentators were wondering if Reynolds hadn't backed the wrong horse that year). His early pro form was also good, with wins at Paris-Nice and smaller stage races like Catalunya, so he didn't come out of nowhere. But he was brought in slowly to the Tour (and his personality wasn't one that would demand being the team number 1).

As for the Conconi connection (which was supposedly for asthma) ... interestingly when the files of Conconi, Ferrari, and Fuentes were raided only a couple of big names did not show up for PEDs. Lemond was one ... and Indurain was another. Not to say he didn't get dope elsewhere -- but anyone who was serious about PEDs went to either Ferrari or Conconi.
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Old 08-12-21, 06:33 AM
  #86  
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The pro peloton has been doped up since there was a pro peloton it's not changed now they're just ahead of the testers like they were in the era we're talking about. My favorite rider of the era was Ulrich, he was doped to the gills but that doesn't make him any less my favorite rider.
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Old 08-16-21, 04:28 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post
The pro peloton has been doped up since there was a pro peloton it's not changed now they're just ahead of the testers like they were in the era we're talking about. My favorite rider of the era was Ulrich, he was doped to the gills but that doesn't make him any less my favorite rider.
I personally do not subscribe to such a nihilistic view. If for no other reason, I would get no joy out of the sport if I saw things that way.

My interpretation is that the bio passport (despite all of its limitations) put a cap on the volume of doping. I just do not think that it is as widespread and as rampant as it used to be. Based on things I read, I get the sense rather that we're seeing more borderline, grey areas of medical abuse (marginal gains, innit?) allowed through TUEs.
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Old 08-29-21, 09:34 PM
  #88  
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yes, and certainly not the only one...
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Old 08-31-21, 07:35 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I don't, but I still think he won 7 tours. I still think he was the greatest TdF rider of all time. The great Eddy was sanctioned 2 (or 3 I forget) times. Pogacar (and Lance) have not been sanctioned once by anything the officials found.

I'm a leave it on the field kinda guy. In a sport much larger than cycling, Diego Maradona handled the ball to score against England and win that World Cup game. Later (20 years or so) - he admitted it. But the score stood, because, at the time those who officiated the event decided Argentina won. There are still tainted blood samples from the '84 Olympics. Someone cheated and likely has a Gold. I'm a bit so-what about that.

If in 20 years if Pog admits he doped, I'd still give him the credit for two TdF wins.

But I don't think he is doping.
This and your next post are spot on how I feel about it also.

To add my personal feels on the issue, anytime it's an American suspected of doping.........the claws come out. International star? Nah, they're still a legend. Guy dies doped up climbing Ventoux. Statue, that folks stop and pay tribute at. Guy dies doing coke that was a known doper........legend, halfway apologetic Netflix doc.

I hear all the time about "but that was the culture when Simpson died" or "when Pantani died". Oh, and it WASN'T the culture when Lance did it? Righhhhhhttt. Americans were whooping a$% in the euro dominated sport with the panache of typical GOATs of more localized American sports.......ala Jordan. And it drove people nuts.

Thing is, when American centric sports have athletes go positive.....nobody cares. Because we aren't "beating" other countries at "their" sport. Bonds, Sosa, McGuire......et. al. Shoot, even if Jordan came out and said he doped.

Then there's the whole fact that the GOATs of many sports have been pretty unapologetic about being ruthless in their pursuits. Anybody watch the Jordan docuseries? Shoot, I think Jordan and Lance mentality isn't that far separated.

I think, for now, that Pog has called people's bluff on the marginal gains team tactics of the Sky era by daring them to break their plan to chase or risk losing out sitting in. And they lose out sitting in.

Generally, world wide........we need to stop assuming a few things:
-that our heroes are all clean as a whistle role models for kids
-that everyone else's heroes are dirty
-that we aren't at the end of the day seeing entertainment and money driving things
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