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Armstrong and doping

Old 07-25-05, 11:29 AM
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hdog
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Armstrong and doping

Has he ever been caught doping in his cycling career? Thought I read somewhere he had.
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Old 07-25-05, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by hdog
Has he ever been caught doping in his cycling career? Thought I read somewhere he had.
No he's never been caught. Further sports experts say his accomplishmets appear to be training not doping type of accomplishments (I'm not sure what that means). Also he is suing one or two people that have accused him of doping. I think that if you look at the effort put out in training and tecnology you will see that it is very unlikely that he has ever (other than cancer drugs) used drugs.

Joe
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Old 07-25-05, 12:01 PM
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He once tested positive for a cortiosteroid during the 1999 Tour de France. The amount was minute and he was cleared, I believe from showing a prescription for a saddle sore cream.

Originally Posted by joeprim
I think that if you look at the effort put out in training and tecnology you will see that it is very unlikely that he has ever (other than cancer drugs) used drugs.
Drugs still help. But one thing he has had going for him is his incredible consistantly since cancer. Most all (convicted) doped riders have shown very inconsistant performances in different time periods.
Though some accuse him of his early years... wasn't it a bad year in 1994 suddenly turning gem in 1995, and an ex-teamate said that he was ...?
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Old 07-25-05, 01:22 PM
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Im sure one thing Armstrong wont miss will be the constant drug tests at all hours and days of the week.
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Old 07-25-05, 10:18 PM
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a 2001 news article on an incident... i had no idea about this... seems US Postal was found disposing of bags of the stuff... not the usual format for applying to skin abrasions?? seems this case just kinda disappeared i couldn't find any info on it's resolution??

link to article

OC reviews Actovegin
Posted: Wednesday February 14, 2001 10:28 AM
Updated: Thursday February 15, 2001 9:30 PM



LONDON (AP) -- Two months after declaring Actovegin a banned substance, the IOC is reconsidering its position on the drug at the center of a Tour de France investigation.

The International Olympic Committee is uncertain whether Actovegin enhances performance and has asked for further study to determine if it should be prohibited, IOC medical director Patrick Schamasch said Tuesday.

The IOC medical commission will rule in April, he said.

"It's still in a gray area," Schamasch told The Associated Press by telephone. "For the moment, if we want to go by a very strict definition, it may be banned. But we don't want to accuse anyone without having more information."

The IOC announced in December that Actovegin, an extract of calf's blood, was banned under the classification of blood-doping agents.

But the IOC, at an executive board meeting last week in Dakar, Senegal, softened its stance.

Actovegin came to international attention late last year when French judicial authorities opened an investigation into whether the U.S. Postal Service team of Lance Armstrong used banned drugs during the 2000 race. Armstrong, who came back from testicular cancer, won the tour for the second straight year.

Paris prosecutors began the investigation after receiving an anonymous letter saying suspicious behavior had been detected the tour. A TV crew noticed two men dumping plastic bags that contained compresses, packaging from foreign products and medicine, including Actovegin.

Actovegin is manufactured by the Norwegian company Nycomed. The substance has been suspected of improving the circulation of oxygen in the blood in a manner similar to the banned drug EPO, or erythropoietin.

But Schamasch said Tuesday that Actovegin apparently does not transport oxygen.

"The explanation of the manufacturers is very vague," he said. "We have asked for more investigation to find out why athletes are taking a product which cannot transport oxygen, to find out if it has any other special effect."

The IOC said a number of teams brought Actovegin with them to last year's Sydney Olympics, thus raising suspicions that the product could be used for unethical reasons.

The IOC is working with the world governing body of cycling to make a definitive ruling on Actovegin. "According to the IOC medical code, we are entitled to ban a product either if it is performance enhancing and/or harmful to the health of the athletes," Schamasch said.

Armstrong and the U.S. Postal Service team have repeatedly denied using banned drugs.

U.S. Postal said its team doctor had been authorized by the French medical control board to bring Actovegin into the country for the race.

The doctor said the drug was on hand for treating severe skin abrasions caused by crashes, and for use by a staff member with diabetes. None of the team's nine riders used Actovegin, the team said.

French police have asked cycling's governing body for access to blood samples taken from Armstrong and other team members during the race. U.S. Postal Service has approved the testing.

French investigators are also analyzing frozen urine samples taken from the riders.

---
another link

Backpedaling

Armstrong's threat only adds to suspicion

Two-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong made a curious vow Tuesday on his personal Web site in response to reports that the performance enhancing drug Actovegin, which is at the center of the controversy involving Armstrong's U.S. Postal Service team, had recently been banned by the IOC. Claiming he'd never heard of "Activ-o-something" and that the Postal Service team was "a very clean and professional team that has been singled out due to our success," Armstrong threatened not to defend his title if all the allegations of illegal drug use didn't go away.

Certainly sounds like the reaction of an innocent man, doesn't it? Dadgummit, I never took performance-enhancing drugs and I never will, but since French prosecutors are investigating the question, I'm staying home from the only important cycling race of the year.

That'll show 'em. That'll show 'em he's guilty. Here's the background: In October French officials launched a preliminary investigation into the U.S. Postal Service team after receiving an anonymous letter saying a TV crew had noticed two men allegedly associated with the team suspiciously disposing of bags that contained medicines and drug paraphernalia, including Actovegin. Actovegin, which was not banned prior to the 2000 Tour, is a derivative of calf's blood that's manufactured in Norway. When injected, it improves the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood, similar to the performance-enhancing drug erythropoietin (EPO).

EPO, you may recall, was at the center of the controversial 1998 Tour de France, which was rocked by one drug scandal after another. Seven teams either pulled out or were thrown out when police began searching hotel rooms of competitors and found large supplies of illegal drugs and drug paraphernalia. One trainer, Willy Voet, who worked for the French-based Festina team, was arrested with 234 vials of EPO, 24 vials of growth hormones and testosterone, and 60 capsules of an aspirin-based product called Asaflow, which thins the blood. Those substances all were banned by cycling's governing body, the Union de Cycling Internationale. As Voet sat in prison, Festina's cyclists blithely denied ever having used the drugs. Most vocal in his denials was the team's star, Richard Virenque.

A year later I visited Voet in his hometown of Veynes, France. He had written a bestselling book, Chain Massacre: Revelations of 30 Years of Cheating. The book exposed how drug use among the world's top cyclists was pervasive, organized and well-funded. He said, in essence, those very few riders who were clean finished at the back of the pack. By then Virenque had recanted his denials of drug use and was facing criminal charges of his own. I found Voet surpassingly credible. He had seen the light and was trying to clean up his sport. I asked Voet about the two top American cyclists, Greg Lemond, who was retired, and Lance Armstrong, who in 1999 would win his first Tour. Voet carefully explained he had never worked with either one of them. He had only written about what he saw with his own two eyes. But all the top riders he worked with used performance-enhancing drugs, often injected by Voet himself. Armstrong was beating them. He advised me to draw my own conclusions.

The point is that the U.S. Postal Service team has not been "singled out," as Armstrong claims. For the past three years cycling has undergone an increased level of scrutiny by French officials in an effort to regain some credibility with the public. It needs it. Many insiders believe that the abuses continue. If Armstrong and the U.S. Postal Service team really are innocent, they should welcome any and all investigations geared toward cleaning up the sport, instead of claiming persecution by French prosecutors. Armstrong should return to France in 2001 to defend his title. Why would he even think of doing otherwise, unless he has something to hide?

E.M. Swift is a Sports Illustrated senior writer and a regular contributor to CNNSI.com. The opinions expressed here are solely those of the writer.

Last edited by doctorSpoc; 07-25-05 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 07-26-05, 12:33 AM
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Debated in exhaustive detail here.....


https://www.cycling.net.au/t165153-.html
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Old 07-26-05, 05:12 AM
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The debate about whether Armstrong is doped is futile. Examine the facts (Actovegin, his links with Dr Ferrari, LA confidential and ongoing court cases...) and draw your own conclusions.

It doesn't matter whether Armstrong doped, he is clearly an example to millions of suffering cancer patients. His example gives them strength and inspiration. In the end, I am sure that he can live with doping on his conscience. And that's all that really matters.

I am just indifferent to this 'champion' though.
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Old 07-26-05, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SunSwingsLow
Im sure one thing Armstrong wont miss will be the constant drug tests at all hours and days of the week.
Good point. Actually, Lance can do all the drugs he wants now. I can just see it - Lance and Sheryl just laying on the beach, passing a king-sized spliff and a bucket of cold Shiner Bocks....
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Old 07-26-05, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by plin
The debate about whether Armstrong is doped is futile. Examine the facts (Actovegin, his links with Dr Ferrari, LA confidential and ongoing court cases...) and draw your own conclusions.

It doesn't matter whether Armstrong doped, he is clearly an example to millions of suffering cancer patients. His example gives them strength and inspiration. In the end, I am sure that he can live with doping on his conscience. And that's all that really matters.

I am just indifferent to this 'champion' though.
Of course, you'll have to look at positive facts too... or in better words, EVERY side to the story...
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Old 07-26-05, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Kestrelman
Good point. Actually, Lance can do all the drugs he wants now. I can just see it - Lance and Sheryl just laying on the beach, passing a king-sized spliff and a bucket of cold Shiner Bocks....
I think that has more of a possibilty of happening than anyone of us knows.
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Old 07-26-05, 08:38 AM
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He did trigger an alarm once though. Turned out to be the cream he used for saddle sores....
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Old 07-26-05, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by plin
. Examine the facts (Actovegin, his links with Dr Ferrari, LA confidential and ongoing court cases...) and draw your own conclusions.
I guess that you and I have a different definition of "facts". I'm not sure if he doped or not, and after Tyler Hamilton's case I'll believe anything, but what you stated are accusations and opinions, but certainly not facts.
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Old 07-26-05, 08:50 AM
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how does a cream make you fail a tesT?
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Old 07-26-05, 09:21 AM
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The Actovegin was not on the banned list at the time, because it wasn't approved for use in humans,and the UCI didn't know about it. It was added immediatley after. As was language outlawing any type of blood manipulation or increasing the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood etc...Postals cover story was pure BS, Cross Country Skiers and Olympic Swimmers were caught with it too, and they don't have to worry about road rash etc.. Basically they were running in the gray area, and got lucky.

When he tested positive for corticosteroids, he later showed the UCI a perscription for a topical ointment. This should have been in his medical book before the test. Several team members have since said that the TUE was in fact backdated, but that the UCI didnt really care, as long as they had one to save face. Having a perscription for one type of product that shows up in the test similairly or the same as a banned one is very common. Over 50% of the peleton are "diagnosed" asthmatics in order to have there albuterol, bhroncial dialators, and beta blockers etc..

There are several corticosteroids that are undectable still, and Human growth Hormone is still undectable,and there is now EPO that is made from Human Cells, Instead of Chinese Hamster Ovary cells (no lie, that what is used) the Human derived EPO is indistinquishable from your own within hours now, so the dopers are always a step ahead. Before that the top guys (mostly Ferraris patients) were instructed to take micro doses of EPO, not the typical 2000 or 4000 IU bi weekly etc, but daily smaller doese, and they don't show up on the thest.

there are literally dozens of steroids that have been slightly tweaked or engineerd to be invisible to the tests.

There is still the old standby trick of banking your own blood, for packing it back in, Like the cycling team did in the 1984 Olympics, and what I think Phonak was doing, albiet Erroneously. Does anyone know if both Tyler and Santi Perez had the same blood type?

Chris Charmichael was sued for allegedly injecting Juniors in Europe, Armstong was on that team. Carhmichael settled out of court, which makes me think he's not innocent.

https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/...in284958.shtml

No surprise since Carmichael was on the 1984 Olympic team that openly blood boosted and took 9 medals. Eddy Borysewicz was there too, as coach, and he was instrumental in the Forming of Motorola and US Postal. Mark Gorski was on the Olympic Team, Gorski was the Team Manager for USPS in 2000 when they got caught with the Actovegin.

Postals team doctor over the last few years was a Spanish doctor who was working for Once during the late 90's drug heydays, and Throw in Lance's choice of performance doctor in Michele Ferrari and the rabbit hole is very deep indeed.

Regardless, Lance is a phenomenal athlete, and a great TdF Champion.
to paraphrase Willy Voet, ex-festina soungier, When all the combatants have the same weapons, the strongest men still win.

Last edited by Smoothie104; 07-26-05 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 07-26-05, 09:34 AM
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A list of substances Jesus Manzano mentioned in his whistle blowing interviews after he was fired by the Kelme team a few years ago.

Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant)
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Old 07-26-05, 09:49 AM
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Smoothie, excellent info.

Since you're pretty knowledgeable on this stuff, I'm curious what you think about David Millar. If I remember correctly, he only pointed to a few specific times of using EPO, not every race.

So was he still not telling the whole truth or is it possible to race without PEDs, just not all the time?
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Old 07-26-05, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoothie104
...Regardless, Lance is a phenomenal athlete, and a great TdF Champion.
to paraphrase Willy Voet, ex-festina soungier, When all the combatants have the same weapons, the strongest men still win.
i agree with that.. essentially that drugs use allows Armstrong to compete on a level playing field with the other cyclist where his superiour physical attributes and intense work ethic, planning, strategy etc, etc allow him to shine above the rest... that sounds about right to me.
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Old 07-26-05, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
i agree with that.. essentially that drugs use allows Armstrong to compete on a level playing field with the other cyclist where his superiour physical attributes and intense work ethic, planning, strategy etc, etc allow him to shine above the rest... that sounds about right to me.
Yeah and the testing now possibly makes it very difficult to really have the huge performance differences from drugs that existed in the 90's. Particularily with Armstrong, who has had to be tested so often. Even some of those that accuse Armstrong and/or the teams he rode with of doping have said things along the lines of 'if no one doped, Armstrong would dominate the Tour'
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Old 07-26-05, 11:05 AM
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I thought this topic was dead long ago.

If you are begging for an attention, one way to get more reply is to post a thread says "Lance doping"

Here , nobody responds, because the topic of doping is someone else.


The bottom line:
* Everybody was doping anything, before.
* Everybody is doping if it's not banned, lately.
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Old 07-26-05, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JungleCat
Smoothie, excellent info.

Since you're pretty knowledgeable on this stuff, I'm curious what you think about David Millar. If I remember correctly, he only pointed to a few specific times of using EPO, not every race.

So was he still not telling the whole truth or is it possible to race without PEDs, just not all the time?


Tough to say, becuase he never tested positive, and no one would have known anything if he hadn't left the stuff laying around his apartment. I would think if one had easy access to it, one would use it all the time. If it was not easily obtainable, the I'm sure he used it before events that were of the highest profile, WC, Tdf, Olympics etc... Results = Contract, big results = big contract and so on....
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Old 07-26-05, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dolomiti
Yeah and the testing now possibly makes it very difficult to really have the huge performance differences from drugs that existed in the 90's. Particularily with Armstrong, who has had to be tested so often. Even some of those that accuse Armstrong and/or the teams he rode with of doping have said things along the lines of 'if no one doped, Armstrong would dominate the Tour'
not sure, but i think you may have missunderstood my post... i think that drug use BY Armstrong allows him to compete on a level playing field with other cyclists who are also taking drugs, but the fact that he is also physically superior and trains harder, focuses on one event, plans better etc, etc allows him to dominate at the tour...

i don't agree with your first statement... i think the testing is bascially bu** sh*t. riders have so many options at their finger tips to get around the tests... just by taking something they can't or aren't testing for... testing is bascially a joke.. riders get caught because they get sloppy, not because the test have any great utility in finding cheats...

like i've said in other post.. they can test a rider 100 times a day, 7 days a week 365 days a year. if they are not testing for or can't test for what the rider is taking they aren't going to find anything... frequency of testing has nothing to do with the likelyhood that someone is cheating or not. a rider would have to be a fool to take something they are testing for.
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Old 07-26-05, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
i don't agree with your first statement... i think the testing is bascially bu** sh*t. riders have so many options at their finger tips to get around the tests... just by taking something they can't or aren't testing for... testing is bascially a joke.. riders get caught because they get sloppy, not because the test have any great utility in finding cheats...
So, how do you think riders are getting the same performance benefit from drugs now, as they were when they could raise their red blood cell count by %30?
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Old 07-26-05, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dolomiti
So, how do you think riders are getting the same performance benefit from drugs now, as they were when they could raise their red blood cell count by %30?
Because the money and desire to win is always stronger than the desire to catch the cheaters, The racers are always several steps ahead.

Before Epogen came around, guys were showing Hematorcrit levels between 40 to 44, then the EPO abuse started and guys were testing as high as 56% or more (Bjarne Riis)

Then the UCI put in the 50% cut off, and miraculously every one started coming in at 49% In the Pre race medical checks prior to the TdF, the average HCT is lower, around 44, but everyone knows these tests are coming, so getting the value down temporarily is easy. But HCT tests are outdated already, with the introduction of Hemoglobin based Oxygen Carriers. Or HBOC's

These latest doping methods no longer raise the hematocrit, but work by increasing the pace at which the blood releases the oxygen into the tissues. Actovegin was one of the first attempts at this, as was Pero fluro carbon or PFC (type Mauro Gianetti and PFC into google) Mauro is now Director Sportiff at Saunier Duval by the way..

PFCs, are insoluble in water but can absorb huge quantities of gases--some products can dissolve more than 100 times more oxygen per volume than blood plasma, and are biologically inert.
The capability of PFCs as an oxygen transport medium were displayed when a study showed that a rat immersed in the solution could survive for hours--it literally breathed liquid. Becuase they are inert, they are expelled unaltered through the lungs in just a few hours..But there are no breathalyzers at the finish line...

Now they use Hemopure, Oxyglobin and Hemassist, These products actually lower the Hematocrit count, as the artifical hemoglobin augments the natural. They are also impossible to detect. It's engineered from Humans and won't show up in a blood test, and passes in the urine with no recognizable metabolites. There is currently no test for them.

HBOCs are excellent oxygen transporters; typically they have 2-4 times the oxygen transport capacity of normal human hemoglobin, but also do not have as strong a chemical bond, meaning the oxygen is released easier to muscle tissues. A 1995 study of Hemopure found greater oxygen uptake and lower lactate levels when compared to a control group using the autologous transfusions (blood re-injected in the donor) that the 1984 Olympic team used.

And while EPO must be taken two weeks or more out from competition to have an appreciable effect, an HBOC is effective within minutes of injection. The only good news is that they only last about 2 days, hence the police raids on the team cars from time to time, as you would need a steady supply for a week race, or really just a a couple of bags for the hard stages.

The really sobering part of all this, is the information above is already out, so its probably outdated. I can only imagine what the current and future methods are like. The European peleton has been doped for over 100 years, I don't think thats going to change anytime soon. Clean Pro sports is a myth.
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Old 07-26-05, 12:28 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Dolomiti
So, how do you think riders are getting the same performance benefit from drugs now, as they were when they could raise their red blood cell count by %30?
what riders really want to do is increase the amount oxygen that gets to their muscles. one way to do that is increasing the amount of red blood cells per volume of blood... and it seems that most riders still do maximize this... you can see how Tyler Hamilton's hematocrit was around .38 and then as he was peaking he peg it at .497 or so. buy, yeah that means is limited because you can only max out at .5 and it's an automatic 2 week suspension... plus everyone kinda know what you've been up to... what's the difference between .497 and .5... anyway that's another topic.

the other way to get more oxygen to your mucles is by putting agents in the blood that allow your plasma to carry oxygen outside of your red blood cells. that way you can pass your hematocrit test and still get your 30%+ if you do the math you'll see that Tyler got 30% just with his blood transfusions... i'm trying to think who got busted for this.. telephone conversation with a vet. what's up with these guys using all these animal products? if i remember i'll post it.
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Old 07-26-05, 01:02 PM
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actually i mixed two news stories. Frank Vandenbroucke and Jo Planckaert were named in Philippe Gaumont's (their former team mate at Confidis) book "Prisonnier du dopage" as having taken Oxyglobin...
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