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Paris-Roubaix We can send men to the moon but.....

Old 04-18-22, 07:30 AM
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Paris-Roubaix We can send men to the moon but.....

This is rather rhetorical but amount of flats yesterday during the race was incredible. You would think sew up tire/tube technology would have helped with this issue over time but a guess not.
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Old 04-18-22, 07:37 AM
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Interesting turn of phrase. Of course, we sent men to the Moon 50 years ago, and have been unable or unwilling since. The Artemis mission aims to return humans to the Moon in the next 5 years, though...

As to flats during the race - I kind of agree with you, but on the other hand, its Paris Roubaix. One of the things that makes it interesting is that the pave is going to wreak havoc on the bikes.
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Old 04-18-22, 07:41 AM
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There are tires that 99.9+% for sure will not flat on that course. But they're slow. And it's a race.

Tough choices.

Even the moon race had its Apollo 1 and Apollo 13.
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Old 04-18-22, 07:47 AM
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Replacing disk brake wheels takes a seeming eternity compared to replacing rim brake wheels. Seconds do matter when you're trying to chase back on.
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Old 04-18-22, 10:29 AM
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Didn't quite a few riders run tubeless clinchers? I think a lot of problems came from the rim getting damaged. You wouldn't have as much problems with tubular on a dinged up rim. I think was it Mohoric that had to drop back because he punctured? Even though according to him it sealed? Maybe not Mohoric but one of the favorites mentioned this.

In regards to men on the moon, UCI stipulates an ordinary consumer must be able to purchase said tech used in a race. Only person who could feasibly get you to the moon right now is probably Elon, but that's gonna cost you $$$

I was also shocked by the amount of punctures though.

​​​​​​ More egregious is the apparent issue of chain dropping with teams using 11spd cranksets and 12 spd gearing and chain due to supply constraints? Like screw the sponsor and run 11spd.

Ganna dropped his chain I think and that was it for his race.
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Old 04-18-22, 12:14 PM
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Very good points @GrainBrain.
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Old 04-19-22, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
I was also shocked by the amount of punctures though.
Maybe more surprising was where many of those punctures occurred -- on the asphalt, not the pave. Sealant doesn't work as well for sidewall cuts, so I wonder what tubeless provides that sewups don't (it's not like the riders change tires anyway) and why more squads don't use inserts.

​​​​​​ More egregious is the apparent issue of chain dropping with teams using 11spd cranksets and 12 spd gearing and chain due to supply constraints? Like screw the sponsor and run 11spd.
I think that's the current hypothesis (and it sounds reasonable to me), but AFAIK no one has come up with a definitive diagnosis. I also read that one team (EF?) was running FSA cranks with Dura Ace drivetrains, don't know if it fixed the chain drop problem, though.
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Old 04-19-22, 06:00 AM
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Supposedly the chainline is off with an 11 speed crankset, so it has to be shimmed and/or the electronic shifting needs to be reprogrammed with Shimano 12 speed. This isn't a problem with the SRAM AXS, I have run two different 11 speed cranks.

I also don't understand why there were so many tubeless failures. Maybe the rim/tire interface burped and they lost pressure.
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Old 04-19-22, 09:07 AM
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Probably you've seen this

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wor...o-chain-drops/
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Old 04-19-22, 11:03 AM
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Sending men to the moon was a cold war stunt. By Apollo 14 people where already complaining that their TV shows where getting interrupted too often and they wanted their normal TV shows back. Pretty sure the current Artemis project to return to the moon will get canceled. Probably there will be no more humans walking on the moon in our lifetimes. Maybe we'll make it back in 2069 for 100th year anniversary of Apollo.

If Paris-Roubaix had been a US vs. USSR competition I'm sure you would have see the US spend tens of millions of dollars on developing tire technology like a 40g beryllium-lithium alloy belted run-flat radial for bikes that cost $500,000 a tire to show the world what a 'free' people can accomplish. LOL.
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Old 04-19-22, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
Sending men to the moon was a cold war stunt. By Apollo 14 people where already complaining that their TV shows where getting interrupted too often and they wanted their normal TV shows back. Pretty sure the current Artemis project to return to the moon will get canceled. Probably there will be no more humans walking on the moon in our lifetimes. Maybe we'll make it back in 2069 for 100th year anniversary of Apollo.

If Paris-Roubaix had been a US vs. USSR competition I'm sure you would have see the US spend tens of millions of dollars on developing tire technology like a 40g beryllium-lithium alloy belted run-flat radial for bikes that cost $500,000 a tire to show the world what a 'free' people can accomplish. LOL.
Artemis is too far along for them to cancel it now. Artemis I will launch soon. Artemis II, a crewed expedition to orbit the Moon, is slated for 2024.

The Artemis budget is presently in the range of $5-7.5 billion/year (out of a total NASA budget of $25b). They have invested too much to cancel.
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Old 04-19-22, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Artemis is too far along for them to cancel it now. Artemis I will launch soon. Artemis II, a crewed expedition to orbit the Moon, is slated for 2024.

The Artemis budget is presently in the range of $5-7.5 billion/year (out of a total NASA budget of $25b). They have invested too much to cancel.
Sunk Cost Fallacy at its finest. Not a space forum, but Artemis is way overpriced for what it does and the Biden administration will not follow through on the Trump administration timeline. It's not launching 'soon', if it doesn't get canceled 2028 is the earliest I think. Spending 25% NASA budget on this is crazy. The money would be far better spent developing our own rocket engines for so we don't have to use Russian ones in the space program.
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Old 04-19-22, 01:17 PM
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I was amazed by the amount of cyclists who didn't even start and many more who didn't finish.
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Old 04-19-22, 01:39 PM
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Thank you

Originally Posted by sincos View Post
Maybe more surprising was where many of those punctures occurred -- on the asphalt, not the pave. Sealant doesn't work as well for sidewall cuts, so I wonder what tubeless provides that sewups don't (it's not like the riders change tires anyway) and why more squads don't use inserts.

I think that's the current hypothesis (and it sounds reasonable to me), but AFAIK no one has come up with a definitive diagnosis. I also read that one team (EF?) was running FSA cranks with Dura Ace drivetrains, don't know if it fixed the chain drop problem, though.
Finally some people correctly saying "puncture." I was about to lose my mind.
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Old 04-19-22, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
Sunk Cost Fallacy at its finest. Not a space forum, but Artemis is way overpriced for what it does and the Biden administration will not follow through on the Trump administration timeline. It's not launching 'soon', if it doesn't get canceled 2028 is the earliest I think. Spending 25% NASA budget on this is crazy. The money would be far better spent developing our own rocket engines for so we don't have to use Russian ones in the space program.
(The digression is the fault of the thread title)

I don't disagree that it's crazy to spend that much on Artemis, but Biden is well into his secondary budgetary cycle and the proposed line item for Artemis keeps going up. I believe he's requested $7.5 B for Artemis in the 2023 fiscal year. So they are accelerating their commitment, not slowing it. Also, part of Artemis is developing commercial US heavy launch vehicles, so I'm not sure if your statement about alterantives to Russia are meant as either/or.
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Old 04-19-22, 03:11 PM
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^^ We're totally going back to the moon 'cause we'll strip mine it. China's super into it right now, bringing back samples even.

Speaking of moon shots, Intermarche don't have to worry about relegation this year!
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Old 04-19-22, 08:09 PM
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And both LaPorte and van Aert folded their wheels in half? What brand of wheels were J-V riding?

Video footage of each

La Porte. https://tinyurl.com/2p8rvjd9

van Aert. https://tinyurl.com/2p98yc3y

Last edited by MinnMan; 04-19-22 at 08:17 PM. Reason: bf won't let me post twitter urls directly
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Old 04-19-22, 08:25 PM
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Shimano wheels. And they blame flat tires for the failures

Jumbo-Visma races on Shimano wheels. Jumbo-Visma communications manager Ard Bierens told VeloNews that the wheel damage was caused in both situations by riding on flat tires.

Both were “moving forward for a while with flat tires, so practically on the rim. Wout and Christophe are also not among the lightweights,” Bierens said with a smile and a wink.
https://www.velonews.com/gear/road-g...paris-roubaix/

"not lightweights"? Well WvA is 78 kilos, La Porte, 76.
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Old 04-19-22, 08:55 PM
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It does look like LaPorte's tire is flat, but by the time he enters the frame, I think his wheel is already failing.








No similar footage for WvA's failure- so far.
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Old 04-19-22, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by James1964 View Post
Replacing disk brake wheels takes a seeming eternity compared to replacing rim brake wheels. Seconds do matter when you're trying to chase back on.
Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
Didn't quite a few riders run tubeless clinchers? I think a lot of problems came from the rim getting damaged. You wouldn't have as much problems with tubular on a dinged up rim. I think was it Mohoric that had to drop back because he punctured? Even though according to him it sealed? Maybe not Mohoric but one of the favorites mentioned this.

In regards to men on the moon, UCI stipulates an ordinary consumer must be able to purchase said tech used in a race. Only person who could feasibly get you to the moon right now is probably Elon, but that's gonna cost you $$$

I was also shocked by the amount of punctures though.

​​​​​​ More egregious is the apparent issue of chain dropping with teams using 11spd cranksets and 12 spd gearing and chain due to supply constraints? Like screw the sponsor and run 11spd.

Ganna dropped his chain I think and that was it for his race.
Originally Posted by sincos View Post
Maybe more surprising was where many of those punctures occurred -- on the asphalt, not the pave. Sealant doesn't work as well for sidewall cuts, so I wonder what tubeless provides that sewups don't (it's not like the riders change tires anyway) and why more squads don't use inserts.

I think that's the current hypothesis (and it sounds reasonable to me), but AFAIK no one has come up with a definitive diagnosis. I also read that one team (EF?) was running FSA cranks with Dura Ace drivetrains, don't know if it fixed the chain drop problem, though.
I read in Cycling News during or after the race that one in the know was pretty sure we were seeing burping of the tubeless tires. I recall that being an issue and discussed after last year? Two years ago? I also noticed several riders paid high prices for slow wheel changes or took bikes that didn't fit well.

So, seems to me that if you want to have the best shot of winning Paris-Roubaix, you put your riders on sewup wheels and rim brakes. There are no descents, so why have discs except they are stock on the provided bikes (that might not even accommodate rim brakes). Sewups also have the advantage that the riders can ride their flat to the end of the cobbles to get the change. (Yes, that rim is now destroyed!)

The old way - no burping, more supple and probably better gripping tires, and tires that are unaffected by rim damage. (Well, J-Vs rim damage might be unacceptable.) Faster wheel changes with no tools needed. Much easier for a teammate to donate his wheel. Oh, either the bike got lighter or the wheels stronger too. With minimum weight, might have to settle for the stronger rims. (If I were a rider, I wouldn't be griping too much.) In other words, what you want for P-R.

Oh, "so I wonder what tubeless provides that sewups don't", happy sponsors, at least until they get to the cobbles. Also a lot less work for the mechanics; they don't have to set up another entire team fleet with a whole new (now new to many of the newer mechanics) system. And gluing failures tend to be very obvious on international TV. Didn't happen often at all when every pro mechanic could glue tires in his sleep.
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