Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Professional Cycling For the Fans
Reload this Page >

Teams getting relegated

Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

Teams getting relegated

Old 09-14-22, 09:42 AM
  #1  
Meet me at spin class!!!!
Thread Starter
 
HeyItsSara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: NY
Posts: 379

Bikes: Precor recumbant indoor bike, Stages bike at Equinox gym

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 53 Posts
Teams getting relegated

Sounds like some of our beloved pro teams will go on the chopping block and not get invited to grand tours, making them close their doors permanently.

Any thoughts?
HeyItsSara is offline  
Old 09-14-22, 11:22 AM
  #2  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
Like WVA said early in the season (roughly), the concept is OK but the points are all out of whack.

If it does come to pass, it seems the relegated teams will still get invites to many/most of the World Tour events. Largely at the expense of the top Pro Tour teams. See https://lanternerouge.com.au/2022/05...-team-ranking/

Alpecin-Fenix, et al, thrived for many years at the top of the Pro Tour. It's not such a horrible place to be, assuming they manage to stay at the top and not slide down.

The relegation will harm their fundraising and various riders will have contract escape clauses if the team loses their World Tour status. That may result in their demise, but it isn't necessarily an auto-destruct. For those glass-is-half-full types.
slcbob is offline  
Old 09-19-22, 12:18 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,673

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,783 Posts
There is some indication that UCI will expand the list from 18 to 20, which will save those teams. And maybe save UCI from some costly lawsuits
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-19-22, 11:30 AM
  #4  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
There is some indication that UCI will expand the list from 18 to 20, which will save those teams. And maybe save UCI from some costly lawsuits
I haven't seen anything juicy since this one, saying we're sticking to the plan, at least as of a few weeks ago.
https://www.velonews.com/news/road/u...l-be-enforced/

And Lanterne Rouge's watch page: https://lanternerouge.com.au/2022/05...-team-ranking/

If it sticks with 18, Israel SUN looks like the big loser. Lotto-Soudal will get beat down but will get the Pro Tour auto-invites, along with Total.

No matter which way this sorts out, someone is suing someone.
slcbob is offline  
Likes For slcbob:
Old 09-19-22, 11:38 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,673

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,783 Posts
Originally Posted by slcbob
I haven't seen anything juicy since this one, saying we're sticking to the plan, at least as of a few weeks ago.
https://www.velonews.com/news/road/u...l-be-enforced/

And Lanterne Rouge's watch page: https://lanternerouge.com.au/2022/05...-team-ranking/

If it sticks with 18, Israel SUN looks like the big loser. Lotto-Soudal will get beat down but will get the Pro Tour auto-invites, along with Total.

No matter which way this sorts out, someone is suing someone.
Well, it's a rumor, not a fact, but here 'tis
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exc...legal-battles/
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-19-22, 12:04 PM
  #6  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
Well, it's a rumor, not a fact, but here 'tis
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exc...legal-battles/
Yup. The UCI press release cited in the one I linked to was specifically to dispel the momentum that rumor was getting.

That doesn't mean it did or holds any water.
slcbob is offline  
Old 09-19-22, 01:57 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,924

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked 715 Times in 429 Posts
Maybe the points aren't allocated properly and the randomness due to the past three years being during a global pandemic made the points battle unfair, but I don't have much sympathy for the teams in danger of relegation as they're in this position due to their own doing, or lack thereof.

IPT has been especially bad, operating more like a retirement home for aging pros than a functional pro racing team. And not on a shoestring budget either. Being physically older in what's become more of a youngsters' sport is one thing, but from what I've heard, their thinking is also behind the times. I recall a CyclingTips podcast going over TdF gear where the hosts made fun of how IPT was clearly obsessed with getting their bikes down to minimum weight at the expense of everything else, like actually going fast (while pretty much all the other teams have figured out that aerodynamic advantage is more important than fussing over a few hundred grams).

When I take a step back, it seems to me that relegation is playing out exactly like a cycling race: a battle of whoever is fittest, smartest, and luckiest overall.
surak is offline  
Likes For surak:
Old 09-19-22, 05:22 PM
  #8  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
Originally Posted by surak
When I take a step back, it seems to me that relegation is playing out exactly like a cycling race: a battle of whoever is fittest, smartest, and luckiest overall.
And, to some degree, in the least amount of denial.

Some of the narrative on GCN over the summer has been how many of the teams at risk didn't start to take it all seriously until just recently, when it is hard to do anything other than sleep in the bed they've been making.

I have no great perspective to confirm or deny that, but I can parrot it back here and it sure bears some hefty truthiness given the way things happen in the sport.
slcbob is offline  
Old 09-20-22, 12:52 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,673

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,783 Posts
Originally Posted by surak
Maybe the points aren't allocated properly and the randomness due to the past three years being during a global pandemic made the points battle unfair, but I don't have much sympathy for the teams in danger of relegation as they're in this position due to their own doing, or lack thereof.

IPT has been especially bad, operating more like a retirement home for aging pros than a functional pro racing team. And not on a shoestring budget either. Being physically older in what's become more of a youngsters' sport is one thing, but from what I've heard, their thinking is also behind the times. I recall a CyclingTips podcast going over TdF gear where the hosts made fun of how IPT was clearly obsessed with getting their bikes down to minimum weight at the expense of everything else, like actually going fast (while pretty much all the other teams have figured out that aerodynamic advantage is more important than fussing over a few hundred grams).

When I take a step back, it seems to me that relegation is playing out exactly like a cycling race: a battle of whoever is fittest, smartest, and luckiest overall.
I agree with this.

Another part that I like is that it adds yet another dimension to the "multiple different races within the race" that has long been a big appeal to the World Tour races.

The pandemic distorted things, this time around.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-20-22, 04:43 AM
  #10  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
From the cheap seats here, I, too, agree with Surak.

The flawed implementation detail that's a bridge too far for me, though, is the grossly skewed points distribution that has teams scrambling for positions in 3rd anf 4th tier non-WT races instead of grand tours and the world championships.

That doesn't change my agreement with anything surak said, nor should it deter the UCI from proceeding on the path they specified. But they damn well ought to recalibrate the spec for the next round.
slcbob is offline  
Likes For slcbob:
Old 09-20-22, 08:01 PM
  #11  
OM boy
 
cyclezen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,340

Bikes: a bunch

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 502 Post(s)
Liked 623 Times in 425 Posts
Best thing UCI has implemented in many a year
cyclezen is offline  
Old 09-21-22, 04:44 PM
  #12  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
An interesting article on the hit to sponsors from being relegated out of the TdeF. From the perspective of the Israel bike sponsor, Factor.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/how...ur-relegation/

As I alluded to in post #4, losing access to the Tour is more acute than the Pro vs. World thing.
slcbob is offline  
Old 09-22-22, 11:49 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,673

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,783 Posts
Originally Posted by slcbob
From the cheap seats here, I, too, agree with Surak.

The flawed implementation detail that's a bridge too far for me, though, is the grossly skewed points distribution that has teams scrambling for positions in 3rd anf 4th tier non-WT races instead of grand tours and the world championships.

That doesn't change my agreement with anything surak said, nor should it deter the UCI from proceeding on the path they specified. But they damn well ought to recalibrate the spec for the next round.
The goal, I think, has been to help promotors of a wider variety of races in a greater distribution of locales. If this strategy has worked, then there have been more interesting races benefitting a broader segment of the cycling community. The the GT and monuments are not in danger of losing promotors. And the main cycling countries in Europe (France, Spain, Italy, Belgium....) don't have any trouble attracting crowds. So I understand UCIs motives here.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-23-22, 05:59 AM
  #14  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
Yes, boosting the strength of the startlist at lesser races is very much an intended consequence of the system, if not a central goal.

I wonder how it's working out in the grand scheme of things. It might be; I honestly don't know. It's only a few teams on the fence that are going there, but they can have an impact. Example: the recent Maryland Cycling Classic.

I've also been pondering the structural decision that only the team's top 10 riders points count and trying to think through those effects; I haven't gotten far.

There are other racing impacts, such as teams aiming for points from two top tens rather than one rider sacrificing to put another on the podium. IDK if that's intended or not, or whether it's good or bad.
slcbob is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 07:13 AM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,673

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,783 Posts
So it's Israel PT and Lotto, it seems....
MinnMan is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 08:03 AM
  #16  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
Yes. I think that's still technically the virtual GC rather than the hard finale, but Israel is virtually eliminated and it would take a miracle in Lombardia and Tours for Lotto to catch Arkea.

Decent movement from Cofidis all season to lift themselves up from where they started in early 2022. EF and Bike Exchange did enough down under to get out of the danger zone. I've been looking in here now and then, and comparing to his early season blog post about it. Well done, Lanterne Rouge.

I saw an article at Velonews earlier this week (at least the first few sentences before the paywall) that said there's a fire sale going on with the agents for riders at Israel and Lotto calling EVERYONE looking for a spot in a WT roster for 2023.
slcbob is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 12:14 PM
  #17  
Meet me at spin class!!!!
Thread Starter
 
HeyItsSara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: NY
Posts: 379

Bikes: Precor recumbant indoor bike, Stages bike at Equinox gym

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 53 Posts
I also noticed a mass exodus from Israel.
HeyItsSara is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 12:15 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,673

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,783 Posts
One might revisit that portion of their budget that ISN/IPT squandered on Froome. How many points did they sacrifice as compared to spending instead on, say, four additional $0.5M-$1M/year riders.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 12:17 PM
  #19  
Meet me at spin class!!!!
Thread Starter
 
HeyItsSara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: NY
Posts: 379

Bikes: Precor recumbant indoor bike, Stages bike at Equinox gym

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 53 Posts
i don't think his contract was limited to winning races; it was for presence and moral and judgement. Not just legs. Talent to lead a new team with young riders who needed mentoring.
HeyItsSara is offline  
Likes For HeyItsSara:
Old 10-06-22, 12:58 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,673

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4218 Post(s)
Liked 2,896 Times in 1,783 Posts
Originally Posted by HeyItsSara
i don't think his contract was limited to winning races; it was for presence and moral and judgement. Not just legs. Talent to lead a new team with young riders who needed mentoring.
How did that work out for them?

Last edited by MinnMan; 10-06-22 at 01:53 PM.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 01:22 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,924

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked 715 Times in 429 Posts
Originally Posted by HeyItsSara
Talent to lead a new team with young riders who needed mentoring.
What young riders? Israel Start-Up Nation fields one of the oldest teams in recent memory
surak is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 01:33 PM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,924

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked 715 Times in 429 Posts
I found Jonathan Vaughters' VeloNews article to be a good read. I hadn't considered that teams had to make decisions on whether to purposely keep riders out of lesser Pro races during the pandemic. Doing the right thing for riders' health was noble of EF. But it mostly sounds like he believed the UCI would tweak the points and didn't seriously consider being relegated until scoring zero points for more than two months this year.

I wouldn't believe the UCI about anything, and what I know about its inner workings/deficiencies mostly come from reading JV's diatribes about it, so he really should've known better.
surak is offline  
Likes For surak:
Old 10-06-22, 01:36 PM
  #23  
Meet me at spin class!!!!
Thread Starter
 
HeyItsSara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: NY
Posts: 379

Bikes: Precor recumbant indoor bike, Stages bike at Equinox gym

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 53 Posts
[QUOTE=HeyItsSara;22670637]i don't think his contract was limited to winning races; it was for presence and moral and judgement. Not just legs. Talent to lead a new team with young riders who needed mentoring.[/QUOTE]'
How did that work out for them?

I think it worked out well! People really enjoyed seeing Froome!


What young riders? Israel Start-Up Nation fields one of the oldest teams in recent memory

Yes they have 3 older riders. But look at that picture - how many came up through the junior division? Lots!
HeyItsSara is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 02:10 PM
  #24  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,836

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 553 Times in 429 Posts
Originally Posted by HeyItsSara
I also noticed a mass exodus from Israel.
That seems to be how they roll, but sad to see it. Again.
slcbob is offline  
Old 10-06-22, 07:03 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,924

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 845 Post(s)
Liked 715 Times in 429 Posts
Originally Posted by HeyItsSara
Yes they have 3 older riders. But look at that picture - how many came up through the junior division? Lots!
I suppose they learned a lot about exploiting TUEs like having a literally laughable (like, by actual allergy experts) excuse for salbutemol, and also the evils of disc brakes. In other words, two things of absolutely no use at all given the evolution of World Tour racing rules and tech. All that valuable learning, reflected quite accurately in their results.
surak is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.