Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

TdF Time Trial results

Old 07-19-23, 01:47 PM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,823
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked 1,446 Times in 853 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F
Someone before made the estimate that 10% of the riders rode the TT to the best of their ability. Roughly speaking, that seems about right. After Jonas and Pogi, there were 13 riders within a minute of WVA. It seems reasonable to assume that all of those - and probably a handful of others - were giving it 100%. Battling for 45th place probably isn't happening, but the battle for top 10 is real.
On the other hand, if you've got a rider in the top 10 on GC and are worried about surviving the final two days in the mountains, are you really going to have them go all in on a 30-35 minute TT to try to gain a relatively small chunk of time to move up a slot or two on GC 8th to 7th overall? Seems risky - those efforts aren't easy to recover from and the potential time losses in the mountains are far more significant than any gains from the TT.

We're also talking about a bunch of teams who knew that Pogi and Jonas were going to light that thing up, plus you've got WVA to contend with, so I doubt many of them really felt like a stage win was possible. I have a feeling "managing the effort" played a pretty big role in the results.


This wasn't the final battle.
msu2001la is offline  
Old 07-19-23, 02:03 PM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,823
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked 1,446 Times in 853 Posts
Originally Posted by hrdknox1
The bike change had little to do with the end result.
Pogacar was down 30 seconds at the bike change, and lost more time on the final climb despite being on the lighter bike.
At a minimum I think it's safe to say the bike change didn't help. It probably cost him some time.
msu2001la is offline  
Old 07-19-23, 02:18 PM
  #53  
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,630

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3877 Post(s)
Liked 2,789 Times in 1,700 Posts
Originally Posted by msu2001la
Pogacar was down 30 seconds at the bike change, and lost more time on the final climb despite being on the lighter bike.
At a minimum I think it's safe to say the bike change didn't help. It probably cost him some time.
Lanterne Rouge said it cost him 15-20 seconds. So, part of the story, but not decisive.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 07-19-23, 02:20 PM
  #54  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked 234 Times in 141 Posts
Did none of you watch the TT or do you just not understand going fast? The way jonas attacked every corner was some senna-esque stuff. Dude was fearless and riding to perfection.
DonkeyShow is offline  
Likes For DonkeyShow:
Old 07-20-23, 05:04 AM
  #55  
bored of "Senior Member"
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: MD / metro DC
Posts: 2,800

Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 622 Post(s)
Liked 537 Times in 416 Posts
I see no anomaly in Vinegaard beating WVA by 3 minutes given that course, their characteristics, and all the work Wout has been doing.

It was weird to see the gap to Pogašar but less weird after seeing the cracks the next day.
slcbob is offline  
Likes For slcbob:
Old 07-20-23, 07:42 AM
  #56  
Resident PIA
 
Shadco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: City of Oaks, NC
Posts: 742

Bikes: Gunnar Roadie, Look 765 Optimum, Spesh Aethos

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked 299 Times in 152 Posts
Here’s a thought, TP’s wrist injury was causing too much pain on the aerobike, they knew he was going to have to change on the uphill. They tested with Bierg to see how bad it was going to be and figured he was going to lose less time with the change than he would have trying to climb on the aero bike.

.
__________________
--
Shad
I knew where I was when I wrote this
I don't know where I am now...
05 Gunnar Roadie Chorus/Record
67'er
Shadco is offline  
Old 07-20-23, 08:41 AM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: SW Florida, USA
Posts: 1,247

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked 639 Times in 441 Posts
Originally Posted by Shadco
Here’s a thought, TP’s wrist injury was causing too much pain . . . .
Might well be part of the issue - and not only on a TT bike.

The wrist injury certainly impacted his pre-TdF training. If it's still bothering him, it may be affecting his ability to concentrate (pain does that) as well as his efficiency when pedaling at times (harder to pull up on the handlebars when needed if one wrist hurts like hell).

I also think there are at least two other factors in play, though.

While they're about the same height (1cm difference, with Pogacar being the taller), Pogacar is 6 kg heavier than Vingegaard (66kg vs. 60kg). Hauling an extra 6kg up every hill and mountain adds to the accumulated fatigue over Grand Tour - where both speed and resilience are decisive factors. Add extra weight to less time to fully prepare, along with possible lingering wrist issues, and those three factors alone may explain Pogacar's relative "cracking" vis-a-vis Vingegaard the past 2 days.

Vingegaard is also a couple of years older than Pogacar. If I recall correctly what little I've read about human male athletic potential, for endurance activities that peak generally occurs in the late 20s to early 30s. If I'm remembering correctly, that means Vingegaard is closer to his physiological "peak years" than Pogacar.

Or I could be "out to lunch" and it could be due to something else entirely. Dunno.

Last edited by Hondo6; 07-20-23 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Add omitted word.
Hondo6 is offline  
Old 07-20-23, 11:41 AM
  #58  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 2,663

Bikes: 2023 Canyon Aeoroad CF SL, 2015 Trek Emonda SLR, 2002 Litespeed Classic, 2005 Bianchi Pista, Some BikesDirect MTB I never ride.

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 647 Post(s)
Liked 131 Times in 86 Posts
The amount of naivete in here is cute, but if you actually look at the numbers, there is no way this outcome came about without some kind of "help". In a 22.4km ITT, he beat 2nd place by 1:38, and 3rd by almost 3 minutes. For comparison, everyone's favorite doper, Lance Armstrong, never won an ITT by more than 1:30, and that was over 60km, not a third of that. He put in 4.4 sec/km on second place(and over 7 sec/km(!!!) on 3rd place, who just happens to be one of the strongest riders in the world, WVA), which has never happened, even in the days of the super duper doper Miguel Indurain. I'm seeing a lot of people commenting that "you don't understand how stage racing works" because many riders just cruise over the course when they have no reason to ride. While that may be true, the 3rd-11th place riders on GC finished around 45 seconds of one another, and there's no arguing that they were not actually racing the TT. Then you have TP, who is ~5% better than that, and JV who is 5% better than that, damn near 10% better than any other contender...vs the very best riders on the entire planet. That'd be like winning the 100m dash a full second ahead of the next guy lol! The other thing I keep seeing is "his downhill and cornering technique tho!" Are we just ignoring the climbing bit? Pushed 7.6 W/kg from the bottom of the categorized climb to the finish, and on the 2.5km climb itself, a VAM of 2100, ON A TT BIKE! In an interview, he even had the gall to say he was "holding back" at certain points, and at one point thought his power meter was broken because he didn't believe the numbers


Dude used to clean fish guts a few years ago, now he's the greatest cyclist in the world by a massive amount. I guess I simply don't believe this is at all possible clean. I'm sorry I don't dream big, I'm sorry I don't believe in miracles. This is why I quit watching stage racing back in the Sky days, and why I'm only going to last 2 weeks into giving it another chance. Enjoy the freak show, folks!

Last edited by cthenn; 07-20-23 at 12:04 PM.
cthenn is offline  
Likes For cthenn:
Old 07-20-23, 12:18 PM
  #59  
Professional Fuss-Budget
 
Bacciagalupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,494
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 24 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by cthenn
The amount of naivete in here is cute, but if you actually look at the numbers, there is no way this outcome came about without some kind of "help".


In a 22.4km ITT, he beat 2nd place by 1:38, and 3rd by almost 3 minutes.
Vingegaard has been smoking almost everyone for weeks. Pogi has hid it well, but almost certainly wasn't in top form this year, plus he likely flushed 20 seconds down the drain with a bike change. WvA has put himself into the wind almost every day for the past 2 weeks.

I mean, really. What's your theory here? Vingegaard is the only one in the pro peloton who is doping?

Dude used to clean fish guts a few years ago, now he's the greatest cyclist in the world by a massive amount. I guess I simply don't believe this is at all possible clean.
Oh, good grief. Vingegaard was already riding on a UCI Continental team when his coach told him to work at a factory to teach him some discipline.

Let's get real: There's no actual evidence that he doped. If there's a test result, a text message, a syringe, that's a completely different story. Otherwise, you could construct a just-so story for anyone who wins a bike race to accuse them of doping.
Bacciagalupe is offline  
Likes For Bacciagalupe:
Old 07-24-23, 06:35 AM
  #60  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 861

Bikes: (shortlist) Cyclops, Marinoni, Mariposa, Air Firday, Pocket Rocket Pro, NWT, SLX Fuso, Claude Pottie (France) x3, Masi Team 3v, Lemond Zurich, Bianchi OS

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 23 Posts
this writeup of the time trial, by ex-pro Michael Barry of Mariposa Bicycles is quite good.

https://mariposabicycles.ca/2023/07/...eid=44ff79a5f6
pstock is offline  
Likes For pstock:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.