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LOOK!! This is why Basso,Ulrich Out Of Tour:Drugs!!

Old 06-30-06, 02:49 PM
  #326  
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Originally Posted by jjmolyet
Think bigger, testing has time on its side, and little viles of evidence they can test forever! Dopers can be ahead but testing will catch up.
Individual dopers will get caught eventually just like hackers but new ones with different methods will rise up and so on and so forth. Doping will not just eventually end, it will continue with new methods and drugs we can't even comprehend right now.
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Old 06-30-06, 02:49 PM
  #327  
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Originally Posted by Moochers_Dad
He did get paid. He won the lawsuit against the insurance company, SCA and got an additional 2.5 million dollars. The total payout was $7.5 million.
the extra $2.5M was tacked on for punitive damages.
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Old 06-30-06, 02:51 PM
  #328  
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Originally Posted by GGDub
The problem is EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood forever, but its effects stick around, that's why its still can be used with little (relative to other PED's) risk. David Millar should sell his story of how he did it to the press so he can buy back his apt. in Biarritz.
That's not what he meant. He meant that the race organizers can save samples (freeze them or what have you) for testing later, when testing technology has caught up with the drugs that were used at the time.
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Old 06-30-06, 02:55 PM
  #329  
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Originally Posted by GGDub
The problem is EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood forever, but its effects stick around, that's why its still can be used with little (relative to other PED's) risk. David Millar should sell his story of how he did it to the press so he can buy back his apt. in Biarritz.
wait:
  • EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood if you leave it in your body and keep filtering that blood thourgh your kidneys?
    OR
  • EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in your blood if you have your blood drawn and frozen in litle vials?

If only the first scenario is true, then -- in theory -- they have blood stored from these guys from previous races. As medical technology improves it will be easier and easier to go back and tell who was doping.

Doesn't resolve tomorrow's issue but it could make for some interesting research.
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Old 06-30-06, 02:59 PM
  #330  
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how could I possibly resist the urge to be bitter, disenchanted, angry, hateful and cycnical. Sign me up!
I'm none of those but cynical. I'll watch the TdF with the same pleasure this year as in '86. I'm racing tommorow and I'll love every minute of it. I don't care if I get beat by somone who dopes, because I love to race.

I do however (based on a lot of time spent in the company of serious racers) accept that the vast majority of pro cyclists dope. Doesn't bother me.

DOES bother me that little 12 year old girls with cancer in the US look up to Lance as an example of commitment and positivity and clean living overcoming adversity when he's actually a ruthless systematic lifetime doper who probably brought the cancer on himself. Pity for those girls is not hatred for anyone else.
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Old 06-30-06, 02:59 PM
  #331  
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Originally Posted by CyLowe97
It's so great that the pure hearted Americans don't dope.
its great (for US fans) that they don't have a spanish doctor helping them dope.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:03 PM
  #332  
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Originally Posted by SilentShifter
And yet Lance does this for 7 years and never comes up positive. Hmmmm I wonder, maybe because he is clean and just works harder than everyone else.
I'm not indicting LA here at all, but nobody "came up positive" in a test. Their doping supplies were just found lying around in a raid, all prepped and ready to go for each rider, along with their schedules.

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Old 06-30-06, 03:05 PM
  #333  
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Originally Posted by Dial_tone
This is where I fall in. Out of the hundreds of UCI pros there are maybe 10 that have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting on the podium. Those ten or so guys are in a league of their own within the pro peleton but when fighting amongst themselves they're in a position where 1-3% can mean the difference between 1st and 5th.
I say with or without drugs those same ten guys are still were they are...the order they place just changes depending who is on what.
Interesting idea..... makes you wonder why all the doping then? For that WEE LITTLE bit of advantage you risk your career, your life? Jan...finished, Basso...finished how many more careers were destroyed this week? I suppose I'm just not seeing the reason for such possible wide spread cheating. I LOVE cycling and it's racing, the kids watch Tour with me and this is going to be hard to explain. A sad day indeed.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:06 PM
  #334  
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Originally Posted by Hambone
wait:
  • EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood if you leave it in your body and keep filtering that blood thourgh your kidneys?
    OR
  • EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in your blood if you have your blood drawn and frozen in litle vials?

If only the first scenario is true, then -- in theory -- they have blood stored from these guys from previous races. As medical technology improves it will be easier and easier to go back and tell who was doping.

Doesn't resolve tomorrow's issue but it could make for some interesting research.
The research is already there. The testing for doping as it stands right now examines the red blood cells to determine their relative ages, etc. So if you're producing immature red blood cells at a rate higher than normal, that's evidence of EPO use. Problem is that the testing is about as hard as it sounds, especially with micro-dosing, etc.

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Old 06-30-06, 03:13 PM
  #335  
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Originally Posted by PedalMasher
A massive generalization, but a good point. There are two competing camps on Lance now.

Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.

He doped just like the rest of them.

I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.
I think he's a genetic SUPER freak who beat other genetic freaks and all parties were on something. I don't really care, I guess. I used to be a competitive bodybuilder and I've taken drugs. It was a long time before posessing them was a felony like it is now. It also wasn't against the sport's rules so it wasn't considered cheating per se.
At the same time I have a friend that competed in the Mr. Olympia contest and he's never taken a drug in his life, of that I am 101% sure. He ended up 14th so he wasn't a massive guy in that world.
I believe it is possible to contend for the Tour cleanly, just unlikely.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:16 PM
  #336  
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Go back to any one of the countless times Lance has claimed his innocence based on the laughable excuse that he has been tested over and over and never tested positive. How can anyone, whether he is innocent or not, with the inside knowledge that Lance must have, say that with a straight face? Now that dozens who also never tested positive are implicated by just one Spanish doctor, shows how irrelevant "testing positive" is to the question of whether Lance ever doped. He should have known better. He did know better. The only reason he said it was because he knew most "outsiders" did not realize how absurd of an excuse it is. Proof? Watch him never use that one again... Why? It's just as much of a joke as it always was, and he knows it, and always knew it. But now he knows HIS U.S. FANS know it's a joke, so he can't use it anymore.

Meanwhile Tyler's pathetic denial sits on his website...

Go David "I have the balls to admit I f***ed up" Millar!
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Old 06-30-06, 03:17 PM
  #337  
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I believe it is possible to contend for the Tour cleanly
What is the basis for believing this?
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Old 06-30-06, 03:18 PM
  #338  
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Originally Posted by Hambone
wait:
  • EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in the blood if you leave it in your body and keep filtering that blood thourgh your kidneys?
    OR
  • EPO and traces of EPO don't stay in your blood if you have your blood drawn and frozen in litle vials?

If only the first scenario is true, then -- in theory -- they have blood stored from these guys from previous races. As medical technology improves it will be easier and easier to go back and tell who was doping.

Doesn't resolve tomorrow's issue but it could make for some interesting research.
Both, from what I understand. There was a great article on Velonews months back when Armstrong's (alledgedly anyway) '99 samples were retested. They interviewed the chief tester (someone help me out) at the WADA lab in Montreal, she expressed doubt that they could have found EPO in the samples, given that it degrades to untraceable over a short period of time. But I've also read (not in a scientific journal) that EPO is only detectable in your bloodstream to a maximum of 12 hours after you take it and that's if you're chronically taking big doses, not taking smaller doses.

However, none of this means they won't come up with ways to test for the evidence of EPO, going back to what DrPete is saying regarding younger red blood cells.

Last edited by GGDub; 06-30-06 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:19 PM
  #339  
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Originally Posted by PedalMasher
A massive generalization, but a good point. There are two competing camps on Lance now.

Those who think he's a genetic freak and beat everyone fair and square. The other contenders were forced to dope to try to compete with him.

He doped just like the rest of them.

I'm still in the first camp. This is getting so big that I think someone may in fact blow the whistle and I'm reserving judgment until that moment.
Maybe try thinking about it this way: Basso in this years Giro-a textbook example of a perfectly orchestrated doping regimen, then ask yourself: who did he remind you of?

Just something to consider
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Old 06-30-06, 03:23 PM
  #340  
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Originally Posted by bmike
I disagree, and I'm really bummed too.
Doing it before the world's premier event does suck - but it makes a point, and I like that (from what I've read) the Teams are taking responsibility for their riders. Putting CSC and T-Mobile on the spot will surely change the politics between teams. How much longer can the code of silence go on, when $$$ starts falling away from teams that don't come clean.
I genuinely don't understand why this could not have been announced 1 week ago or more. It would give time to decide replacements for teams, and substantiate claims.

Does the tour think that the frantic last minute chaos makes for good publicity for the race?, or did this take everyone by surprise?

Could someone fill us in on the history of this investigation... how long ago it was known that there would be a significant number of riders implicated?
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Old 06-30-06, 03:24 PM
  #341  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head

Go David "I have the balls to admit I f***ed up" Millar!
+ freakin 1
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Old 06-30-06, 03:26 PM
  #342  
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Elvis for President. "Wise men say only fools rush in"
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Old 06-30-06, 03:29 PM
  #343  
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Playing devils advocate for a second... if the testing isn't up to scratch then bad luck, people always find ways around the rules in any sport, what I wanna know is why performance enhancing drugs are banned? is it out of concern for the riders health? fairness in the sport? whats the deal? if they were allowed then it'd be a level playing field, it's the whole nature of professional sports that leads people to dope, you wanna protect your huge salary, its the organisers who inevitably lead them to the drugs as the sport becomes big business.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:30 PM
  #344  
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Originally Posted by GGDub
+ freakin 1
yeah, but only after he tried to lie about it first.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:33 PM
  #345  
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Originally Posted by timmhaan
yeah, but only after he tried to lie about it first.
true. But when viewed in the context of other cheaters, Ben Johnson, Hamilton, Bonds, Heras, etc.. Its refreshing when someone finally, fesses up.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:34 PM
  #346  
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ok, the rosters are up on the TDF website. Why is T Mobile starting with 7, and CSC with 8. Is there some rule that after you put your roster in, you can't replace a rider, even before the race starts? Obviously both T Mobile and CS have riders that they could get to the prologue in time. I'm assuming there is some cutoff beyond which you can't substitute.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:40 PM
  #347  
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Originally Posted by jeremyb_nz
Playing devils advocate for a second... if the testing isn't up to scratch then bad luck, people always find ways around the rules in any sport, what I wanna know is why performance enhancing drugs are banned? is it out of concern for the riders health? fairness in the sport? whats the deal? if they were allowed then it'd be a level playing field, it's the whole nature of professional sports that leads people to dope, you wanna protect your huge salary, its the organisers who inevitably lead them to the drugs as the sport becomes big business.
Because people do die from overzealous blood doping. And if a line isn't drawn someplace, the entire race becomes an engineering contest instead of human sport. We've drawn those lines with equipment, and they're easy to enforce, but the biological half is harder. With genetic doping on the horizon it only gets harder yet, and we're going to have to give up on simple testing at some point, which means more of this kind of old fashioned sting operation. If we can't prove the punch is spiked anymore, we have to catch the guy tipping in the flask.

I think control is possible. The prospect of getting caught red handed just has to be more expensive than the prospect of losing, and huge ugly embarassing spectacles like this one, painfull as they are, are the best way of ratcheting up that expense.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:41 PM
  #348  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
ok, the rosters are up on the TDF website. Why is T Mobile starting with 7, and CSC with 8. Is there some rule that after you put your roster in, you can't replace a rider, even before the race starts? Obviously both T Mobile and CS have riders that they could get to the prologue in time. I'm assuming there is some cutoff beyond which you can't substitute.
Well, they said no substitutes for those implicated. So T-Mobile lost two riders (down to 7) and CSC lost one rider (down to 8). Astana-Wurth is completely out because they had FIVE riders implicated, depleting their Tour roster to just 4 riders. You have to start with at least 6 riders, so Astana-Wurth is going home.
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Old 06-30-06, 03:44 PM
  #349  
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Originally Posted by cydewaze
CSC should offer Vinikourov a job, since the rest of his team is out (and since he doesn't seem implicated - yet) and maybe he'd have a shot at GC.
I don't believe this is possible. No team can pick up outside riders to replace team members who have been removed from the tour:

Bruyneel on exclusions (and replacements)
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Old 06-30-06, 03:57 PM
  #350  
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Probably just more spin, but worth a read if you respect Julich. Julic didn't need to stand behind Basso at this point, especially when you consider that T-Mobile threw their guys under the bus. Then again he doesn't say that Basso says I didn't dope, just that he wasn't involved in Spain. Basso is implicated because his dogs name appears on some of the schedules.

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