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Landis Opts To Make His Case On the Web

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Landis Opts To Make His Case On the Web

Old 10-12-06, 12:46 PM
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Landis Opts To Make His Case On the Web

October 12, 2006
Landis Opts To Make His Case On the Web
By JULIET MACUR
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/12/sp...gewanted=print

Floyd Landis, the winner of this year’s Tour de France who was accused of using a performance-enhancing drug during the race, gave the public a look at his defense today.

The multimedia presentation posted this morning at FloydLandis.com included a PowerPoint presentation and about 350 pages of documentation from the French national antidoping lab that conducted the drug tests. The main arguments of the defense are that the handling of Landis’s urine samples was sloppy and that at least one of the tests was invalid.

The request to dismiss the doping case prepared last month by Howard Jacobs, Landis’s lawyer, for the United States Anti-Doping Agency, also appears on the Web site. That request was denied last month, and the agency then charged Landis with a doping violation. Landis faces a two-year ban from cycling and the loss of his Tour title if his appeals fail.

A hearing in the case is expected to be held in January, and Landis has requested that it be opened to the public.

“Floyd has always been an open guy, and I think he wants his whole case to see the light of day,” said Arnie Baker, a cycling coach and retired doctor in San Diego who helped prepare the online presentation. “In a sense, he is suffering because people have already judged him without having any knowledge of his case.”

Landis, who turns 31 on Saturday, faces a challenge in his appeal.

The United States Anti-Doping Agency reported that 157 athletes were charged with doping violations from 2000, when the agency was formed, through Sept. 22. Of that group, 31 athletes appealed. Every violation was upheld, said Travis Tygart, the agency’s general counsel.

“There is sufficient expertise, review and process prior to a case being charged to ensure that only cases of doping move forward,” Tygart said.

Landis tested positive for synthetic testosterone in July. After falling out of contention for the Tour victory, he rode solo through the Alps to catapult himself back into contention in Stage 17. The urine sample he provided after that performance tested positive for synthetic testosterone. In addition, his ratio of epitestosterone to testosterone was 11 to 1, well above the World Anti-Doping Agency limit of 4 to 1.

Scientists at the French lab used a carbon isotope ratio test to determine the atomic makeup of the testosterone in Landis’s urine. The test can determine if testosterone is natural or synthetic.

Landis is challenging the results of that test.

In his request to drop the case, Jacobs, a Southern California lawyer who often handles high-profile athletes’ doping cases, said that only one of the four metabolites examined in the test was positive for synthetic testosterone. He said all four must be positive under World Anti-Doping Agency rules.

But Dr. Olivier Rabin, science director for the agency, said only one metabolite is needed to have a positive test. He also said that a high testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio alone could result in a doping violation, even if the carbon test is negative.

Christiane Ayotte, director of the agency’s lab in Montreal, agreed with Rabin on both points and said it was frustrating to see athletes fighting cases publicly when antidoping scientists must remain silent because of confidentiality rules.

“You have the other side explaining their case, and it may look like an awful mistake that they are in the case at all,” Ayotte said. “But at the end of the day, the judge will decide if there was a doping offense, not anyone on the outside, not anyone else.”
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Old 10-13-06, 07:09 AM
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It's the TIPPEX defense! Even better than the phantom twin!

What an idiot.
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Old 10-13-06, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
Christiane Ayotte, director of the agency’s lab in Montreal, agreed with Rabin on both points and said it was frustrating to see athletes fighting cases publicly when antidoping scientists must remain silent because of confidentiality rules.

“You have the other side explaining their case, and it may look like an awful mistake that they are in the case at all,” Ayotte said. “But at the end of the day, the judge will decide if there was a doping offense, not anyone on the outside, not anyone else.”
These might be the two most unbelievable paragraphs I have ever read.

Frustrating to see athletes fighting cases publically? This is the first time, according to what's been published that a rider has taken his case to an open hearing...a right they only got about two years ago..

About two days after the Tour ends, the whole case is in the world's press...hell, he was tried and convicted before anyone even knew what was going on. And, gee Christiane, where did that information come from?? Hmmm**********

Poor scientists...you're breaking my heart...

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Old 10-13-06, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
These might be the two most unbelievable paragraphs I have ever read.

Frustrating to see athletes fighting cases publically? This is the first time, according to what's been published that a rider has taken his case to an open hearing...a right they only got about two years ago..

About two days after the Tour ends, the whole case is in the world's press...hell, he was tried and convicted before anyone even knew what was going on. And, gee Christiane, where did that information come from?? Hmmm**********

Poor scientists...you're breaking my heart...

CYA at it's Hall of Fame best.
They smeared him with innuendo, now he "smears" them with the evidence of their own incompetence and they whine "foul".

Hey Euro, how's that Merde-burger goin' down...

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Old 10-15-06, 04:26 AM
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Arne Ljungquist, WADA Board member, and former IOC doping "expert"...

"It's unfortunate if athletes are blaming individual laboratories. The labs are extremely well controlled and under close supervision."



Oh, really???

As in a typical bureacracy, the last ones to learn of the problem are the ones running it.

..and they are still b!tching about the public hearing.

...if they had not released the info and tried the case in the court of public opinion...
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Old 10-15-06, 11:28 AM
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The antidoping scientists complain to the press that the test is right, but they must remain silent because of confidentiality rules. They don't sound silent to me.
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Old 10-15-06, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Arne Ljungquist, WADA Board member, and former IOC doping "expert"...

"It's unfortunate if athletes are blaming individual laboratories. The labs are extremely well controlled and under close supervision."



Oh, really???

As in a typical bureacracy, the last ones to learn of the problem are the ones running it.

..and they are still b!tching about the public hearing.

...if they had not released the info and tried the case in the court of public opinion...
You guys are hopeless and in dire need of a reality check.
Talk to almost any pro-cyclist off the record, and they will tell you that everyone dopes.
To believe that Landis was framed by a French lab is to look at the world from such a narrow minded, hypocritical, bordeline xenophobic, jingoistic perspective it almost boggles the mind....
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Old 10-15-06, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
You guys are hopeless and in dire need of a reality check.
Talk to almost any pro-cyclist off the record, and they will tell you that everyone dopes.
To believe that Landis was framed by a French lab is to look at the world from such a narrow minded, hypocritical, bordeline xenophobic, jingoistic perspective it almost boggles the mind....
Once again, "everyone dopes" (b.s.), so we're supposed to be worried about 1 guy doping, so we can take his yellow jersey and give it to another doper, and perhaps we can go on down the line until we have exhausted every participant in the race. If you actually truly believed "everyone doped" YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE, you wouldn't care about Floyd and whether he doped, so save me your phony claim that we both know is nonsense.

...and the oh so tired "you just hate the french," canard ....and how dare we repay them for their adoration and respect so cruelly...

Hysterical. Keep posting, brainiac. I freakin love it.
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Old 10-15-06, 07:09 PM
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I have no idea if FL doped. I do think it possible he'll get off on the "technicality" of shoddy lab work. Not an attempted frame by the dastardly French, mind you, just sloppy work that certainly wouldn't stand in a criminal case and shouldn't, IMO, stand here either.

I mean the white out incident should get someone fired. There's a clear protocol for dealing with mistakes and white-out is definitely not it.

Nit-picking? Maybe, but these results have already determined the direction in which large sums of money have moved and determined the fate of a UCI team. Lab protocols haveto be followed. If they're not the WADA is being hypocritical when it offers zero tolerance, even in the case of errors, to the athletes.

Of course noone will consult my opinion and the USADA knows the histrionics that will flow from Pound if they dismiss the case.

Will be interesting....


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Old 10-15-06, 07:16 PM
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Regardless of whether Landis was/is doping or not, the body trying to accusing him must be beyond reproach in order for credible sanctioning authorities and the public to accept their findings. This particular lab, WADA, and UCI have apparently acted poorly in this manner and have traded their own credibility for a questionable case(innocence and guilt are another topic). The noble goal of busting dopers cannot justify unethical or sloppy work by those that wish to accomplish that goal. The ends do not justify the means.

The actions of a few overly zealous anti-doping authorities have now undermined their own noble goal. Not only will Landis most likely be cleared but those anti-doping authorities will be weakened in the future as they seem untrustworthy and sloppy. Even if Landis is sanctioned, the bizarreness of this case will certainly taint the trustworthiness of that lab and the other organizations involved for future cases. Future allegations of doping by anti-doping officials must be taken with a bit of skepticism (following this case and that of Jones).

If you believe the test results were valid and that Landis might get away with doping (either by escaping sanctions or by being the public victim of anti-doping zealots in public opinion) then you should blame the lab for their apparently shoddy work. If, as you seem to believe, "they all dope"- then you should blame the anti-doping authorities that screwed up this case as well as the dopers.

It is possible, although you seem to laugh at the notion, that one can believe the anti-doping authorizes screwed up the case and Landis dopes. Those two positions are not mutually exclusive. Regardless, if these documents and allegations are correct, this case against Landis is laughable.

I have argued since the beginning that the anti-doping officials must behave ethically and follow their own rules- unfortunately they have not. I would not be surprised if civil actions are taken against the involved parties.
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Old 10-15-06, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter
I have no idea if FL doped. I do think it possible he'll get off on the "technicality" of...
Using the pejorative "technicality" undermines the rest of your post.
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Old 10-16-06, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
To believe that Landis was framed by a French lab is to look at the world from such a narrow minded, hypocritical, bordeline xenophobic, jingoistic perspective it almost boggles the mind....
Please show me where I said Landis was framed.

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Old 10-16-06, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
Regardless of whether Landis was/is doping or not, the body trying to accusing him must be beyond reproach in order for credible sanctioning authorities and the public to accept their findings. This particular lab, WADA, and UCI have apparently acted poorly in this manner and have traded their own credibility for a questionable case(innocence and guilt are another topic). The noble goal of busting dopers cannot justify unethical or sloppy work by those that wish to accomplish that goal. The ends do not justify the means.

The actions of a few overly zealous anti-doping authorities have now undermined their own noble goal. Not only will Landis most likely be cleared but those anti-doping authorities will be weakened in the future as they seem untrustworthy and sloppy. Even if Landis is sanctioned, the bizarreness of this case will certainly taint the trustworthiness of that lab and the other organizations involved for future cases. Future allegations of doping by anti-doping officials must be taken with a bit of skepticism (following this case and that of Jones).

If you believe the test results were valid and that Landis might get away with doping (either by escaping sanctions or by being the public victim of anti-doping zealots in public opinion) then you should blame the lab for their apparently shoddy work. If, as you seem to believe, "they all dope"- then you should blame the anti-doping authorities that screwed up this case as well as the dopers.

It is possible, although you seem to laugh at the notion, that one can believe the anti-doping authorizes screwed up the case and Landis dopes. Those two positions are not mutually exclusive. Regardless, if these documents and allegations are correct, this case against Landis is laughable.

I have argued since the beginning that the anti-doping officials must behave ethically and follow their own rules- unfortunately they have not. I would not be surprised if civil actions are taken against the involved parties.
Yep...excellent post.

To use Blaireau's logic, if everyone dopes, Floyd still kicked everyone's
a s s.

...since they all dope...
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Old 10-16-06, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Yep...excellent post.

To use Blaireau's logic, if everyone dopes, Floyd still kicked everyone's
a s s.

...since they all dope...
Yet another non-sequatur...
A clean procyclist is an oxymoron; one day it will be part of accepted common sense --even in America... Until then you can try and see every positive dope test of an american cyclist as an anti-US conspiracy, that's your privilege. And you can believe Tyler Hamilton's twin theory for that matter... And in Santa Claus too. Say hi to the tooth fairy next time you see her Just don't expect me to take your post or those of your cronies seriously...
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Old 10-16-06, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
Yet another non-sequatur...
A clean procyclist is an oxymoron; one day it will be part of accepted common sense --even in America... Until then you can try and see every positive dope test of an american cyclist as an anti-US conspiracy, that's your privilege. And you can believe Tyler Hamilton's twin theory for that matter... And in Santa Claus too. Say hi to the tooth fairy next time you see her Just don't expect me to take your post or those of your cronies seriously...

Conspiracy? Only in that it looks like the testing was flawed and neither the lab nor WADA are willing to admit it.

What part of your own logic aren't you comprehending Mr. Pound? If they're all dopers, wouldn't that make the entire process (which only identifies a small number of samples as being positive) as it currently stands a farce? If so, what justice would there be for the minority who do get caught?

Or does the concept of justice not matter to you?
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Old 10-16-06, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
A clean procyclist is an oxymoron; one day it will be part of accepted common sense --even in America... Until then you can try and see every positive dope test of an american cyclist as an anti-US conspiracy, that's your privilege.
Isn't it interesting that in previous posts this same person (as well as many other tolerant, thoughtful and worldly bigots) posts about American xenophobia, jingoism, anti-Franco, anti-European sentiment and then turn right around without any shame or self consciousness and make derisive comments about America.

The truth is, it's not possible for us to despise France, Europe, whoever they claim that we don't like, and usually with some justification, nearly as much as they hate us. When they talk about Americans being paranoid about the French being out to get us, they seem to be projecting their own desires and their own paranoia.

It's ok though, I am sure that some of their best friends are Americans...
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Old 10-16-06, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
Yet another non-sequatur...
A clean procyclist is an oxymoron; one day it will be part of accepted common sense --even in America... Until then you can try and see every positive dope test of an american cyclist as an anti-US conspiracy, that's your privilege. And you can believe Tyler Hamilton's twin theory for that matter... And in Santa Claus too. Say hi to the tooth fairy next time you see her Just don't expect me to take your post or those of your cronies seriously...
Thank you for the afternoon laugh. Much appreciated...

Please folks...step away and don't feed the troll anymore...

BTW...even in America?

I give you Festina and Cofidis...thank you...have a great evening and drive carefully....

Last edited by roadwarrior; 10-16-06 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 10-16-06, 02:40 PM
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Blaireau what is your point?

As for the discussion be merely about an anti-US conspiracy- this IS a Landis thread so it should not surprise you that an American (Landis) is being discussed.

I know I am feeding a troll but that troll is almost showing the ridiculous zealousness of a particular point of view. This particular troll entertains me with irrelevant and inept ad hominem attacks.
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Old 10-16-06, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Thank you for the afternoon laugh. Much appreciated...

Please folks...step away and don't feed the troll anymore...

BTW..."even in America?"

I give you Festina and Cofidis...thank you...have a great evening and drive carefully....

aw c'mon, Dad, please?!? Just a while longer....
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Old 10-16-06, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
Using the pejorative "technicality" undermines the rest of your post.
Don't see it and didn't use it as a pejorative, that's why I put it in quotes.

If the USADA clears Floyd they'll do it for the technical reason that flawed lab results can't be used for a conviction.

Wouldn't bet the farm that's gonna happen anyways. The *****storm that will come from Pound if FL is cleared on a technicality will be of transcending proportions, and they know it. All the anti-French conspiracy talk will immediately switch to an "American cover-up conspiracy" and Pound will lead the chorus. There's no way in the world they'll officially declare him innocent, Just dismiss on technical reasons or say "screw it" this isn't a criminal court so we'll use the results anyways and convict him.

Will be interesting......



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Old 10-16-06, 04:08 PM
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Wow. Well I guess Landis doesn't really think he can convince the general public that he didn't use drugs to win the Tour.
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Old 10-16-06, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Originally Posted by Blaireau
Yet another non-sequatur...
A clean procyclist is an oxymoron; one day it will be part of accepted common sense --even in America... Until then ...
BTW...even in America?

I give you Festina and Cofidis...thank you...have a great evening and drive carefully....
You make his point, roadwarrior.

The reason "a clean procyclist is an oxymoron" is accepted common sense in Europe is because of Festina and Cofidis. He's only saying that one day "a clean procyclist is an oxymoron" will be accepted common even in America.

I have to say having relatives who live in France, over there "a clean procyclist is an oxymoron" IS accepted common sense, and it certainly is not in the U.S., though we seem to be finally moving in that direction. It's not that we're slow, it's just that they have had a lot more experience with it than we have.
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Old 10-16-06, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
To use Blaireau's logic, if everyone dopes, Floyd still kicked everyone's
a s s.

...since they all dope...
They all dope a little, but the don't all dope so much that they get caught. That's the difference.

The written rules are no doping.
The unwritten rules are doping is fine, as long as you manage to do it without getting caught. If you do get caught, that means you overdid it, and overdoing it is breaking the (unwritten) rules.

So it is a level playing field - everyone is effectively allowed to dope the same amount: enough to get some advantage over not doping at all, but not so much that you get caught.

Remember, these are guys who obsess about millimeters in seat height, and where "every second counts".
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Old 10-16-06, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
They all dope a little, but the don't all dope so much that they get caught. That's the difference.

The written rules are no doping.
The unwritten rules are doping is fine, as long as you manage to do it without getting caught. If you do get caught, that means you overdid it, and overdoing it is breaking the (unwritten) rules.

So it is a level playing field - everyone is effectively allowed to dope the same amount: enough to get some advantage over not doping at all, but not so much that you get caught.

Remember, these are guys who obsess about millimeters in seat height, and where "every second counts".

Oh I get it, now. It's not really a bike race, it's really a contest to see who can dope the best...

And I guess this means, using your paranoid views, that Oscar Pereiro should win since he dopes better than Floyd. Ohhhh....got it now.

If that was actually the case, you wouldn't give a cr@p so please stop lying. You apparently don't mind lying to yourself, but that's your problem.
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