Bacciagalupe

It's fairly routine for governments and other organizations to regulate medicinal uses. Plenty of substances are banned from use, so there does not seem to be any sort of universal right to ingest any medicine you please....


So I guess you told your kids about the myth of Santa Claus when they were 2, right?

Anyway, wide-spread rule violations should not result in revoking the rules. If there was a wide-spread rash of baseball players who were taking bets and throwing games to make their bets, should we then allow players to bet on games?


Actually, there is currently a sprinter with two prosthetic legs (Oscar Pistorius), and they are trying to figure out if the prostheses do in fact provide him with a mechanical advantage. For the moment, I believe the IOC is saying it's an advantage and barring him from competition....

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/sp...c3f6a8&ei=5070

Edit: it's the IAAF, not IOC, currently hashing it out.

goldenear

Actually, it's their job, and that's what I was referring to when I wrote that. Read what the Telekom/T-Mobile team riders have recently admitted - they were told point blank by their team doc's that if they didn't use, they would probably not have their contracts renewed because of lackluster results.

If no one in the field uses, then yes, it's a perfectly level playing field as well. You say it's attitudes like mine that got us into this mess?! You are 180* wrong. It's the attitude that drugs need to be kept out of pro sports that has caused this mess. Where is all of the drama in World's Strongest Man? Why isn't that sport collapsing in front of our eyes. Maybe it's because everyone is taking drugs but WSM doesn't care. The media doesn't care, the athletes don't care, the viewers don't care. In short, NO ONE CARES maybe because IT ISN'T AGAINST THE RULES!

As it stands today, the anti-doping rules in cycling cannot be enforced sufficiently to guarantee drugfree competitions. This is 100% fact. And now you see the results of this fact.
Ok, let me get this straight. You disrespect guys who were effectively using a medically established protocol to enhance performance yet praise a coke addict. Yeah, that's f'n brilliant!

AfterThisNap

what's hockey?

goldenear

Actually, the majority of the drugs in question here - the ones used by Fuentes - were TREATING health conditions, not impairing them. The only one in the protocol remotely dangerous was EPO/blood doping. If used responsibly, blood doping is extremely safe. FDA recently released some bad data regarding Epogen, so EPO might have some adverse longterm consequences - just have to wait and see on that one.

Everyone always tries to tie these two together. I would like to know the answer to this question: How is a high school kid in South Dakota going to learn what these guys are using? Do you think Floyd Landis is just going to dial up a random SD telephone # and say, "Hey bro, I'm using 50mg/day of transdermal T, 1.2 IU's of hGH 6 days on 1 day off, 10IU's 3x daily of insulin, 60mcg of IGF-1/daily, and 100mg/wk of Primobolan in the off season." Give me a break. None of this doping information would ever get out if drug testing disappeared. The guys would keep it to themselves and no one would know the truth, just like we never knew all of our MLB idols were using speed back in the day. If that didn't come out in the congressional baseball hearings, I would never have known that. Now, THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT.

#1 - Please tell me how you would have learned what these guys were doing if no drug testing was implemented. Until you reach that level of competition, you won't know what's really going on.

#2 - It does not force drugs onto everyone. Anyone who wants to WIN will have to take drugs. Some will even have to use in order to have a job. But that is not any different than it is today. Actually, any rider with half a brain would WANT to use some of these drugs simply to treat the adverse medical conditions created by racing the TdF.

#3 - These drugs have been around for decades and the people who need to know about them, know A LOT about them. There are no secrets. I've used them for years personally. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure a lot of this stuff out on your own. Start with the prescribing information and periodic bloodwork and you've already got 90% of it done.

Because a motor is doing the work for the athlete. I've never seen a bottle of testosterone climb Alpe d'Huez. These guys are doing all of the work. The drugs are not turning the pedals. They simply allow the athlete to perform more effectively. If you don't put your time in, you will get nothing from them - even Zabel admitted this publicly.

goldenear

Actually that is incorrect in the U.S., as it is in many other "western" countries. The U.S. govt. cannot drug test you as a private citizen without a criminal record and use the results of that test to incriminate you. That is a violation of your right to privacy. Therefore, the only way to regulate medical use of controlled substances is via possession laws. In other western countries, you can possess most of these drugs legally even without a prescription - you simply cannot "distribute."

Agree 100% What SHOULD result in revoking the rules is the fact that the technology to perfectly and completely enforce said rules does not exist. THAT is why the rules should be revoked.

dutret

Are you really pointing to a freak show which only exists because most of it's viewers find it amusing to watch big scandanavians with funny names do stupid **** as a direction in which cycling should move?

goldenear

Absolutely not! The two sports are at the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Also, last time I checked, an American won the event in 2006 (first time in what, 30 years since Kaz?), so it's not just the big blondes who are participating.

The fact of the matter is that cycling would never turn into a "freak show" as you put it because there is a point of diminshing returns - actually NEGATIVE returns - when it comes to PED's and TdF racing. Actually, nothing would change since the whole field is using already. My point is none of this drama exists in non tested sports. Guys aren't "retiring" because of doping allegations. This is pure stupidity. Most of the big names are now gone, and that adversely affects my viewing entertainment.

HardyWeinberg

Although many attribute the recovery to the 'roid-fueled slugfests of McGwire and Sosa... I wonder how long it would have taken baseball to recover from the '94 shutdown in the absence of PEDs?

goldenear

^^^That's a great point. As I sit here thinking about that era, baseball was definitely DOA for years after that fiasco. McGwire v. Sosa brought back real entertainment value for sure.

ax0n

Legalize doping. Pro cycling is already an expensive sport. What's another 100 large per year to keep the team "enhanced"?

huge

Man, did I open a can of worms.

I totally agree with this sentiment. In my own clumsy way, it's the point I was trying to make.

akatsuki

Have you ever competed in high school or collegiate sports or known anyone training for just about anything that requires high levels of dedication young (Olympic-aspirants?), especially football or something similar? Let us just say that you can find out what the pros use pretty easily. Or even worse, you get sold stuff that is "just like Lance uses" but really isn't (and no, I am not debating whether Lance takes drugs, more how this stuff is marketed).

Just because it is happening doesn't mean it is right. And the adverse conditions may be part of a long-term career in cycling, i.e., it is part of career strategy whether to burn yourself out early or try and make it long term. You don't think that Tiger Woods probably uses a bit safer swing than he is capable of to preserve his game longer, or that quarterbacks and pitchers do the same? Yes, nothing is forced, as in nobody is forcing you to take a career in pro-cycling, but if your job required you to take drugs and inject yourself, you might do so as you apparently do for cycling, but other people would not appreciate it (imagine being forced to take Ritalin and Provigil just to stay up for days straight and focus singlemindedly to do a desk job).

Not all the drugs are old and have been around for so long, and they are unregulated. I am not so sure that full safety profiles, etc. are done on all illegal performance enhancers that are out there. The designer stuff coming out of labs I am sure is not regulated to any extent. BTW, you know what the pros are doing apparently, so your point #1 isn't quite true; otherwise are you a pro? It would be rather foolish to admit use on a public board.

They allow the athlete to do things they would not otherwise be capable of. Just like attaching a small little motor to the bottom of the bike would.

goldenear

see my answer below for my story. About your point here, drugs are more embedded in some sports than others. I think it's rather odd that the examples you list are all drug tested. Yet, apparently, you seem to believe that these people are all still using and just not getting caught. I happen to agree with that position 100%. However, my point is that the whole world knows what someone is using in the rare instance that someone does get caught. The substance is named, the B sample gets tested, the athlete appeals, etc. It's an endless stream of media driven information. If all of this just went away and these guys were allowed to use whatever they wanted, none of this information would ever be disclosed in this manner. I am heavily involved in the strength and physique community, yet I have never once heard 3-time WSM (nontested sport) Mariusz Pudzianowski disclose how many Omnadren amps he was shooting per week.

Yes, I am a pro, just not in cycling. I've competed professionally in the sport of powerlifting and have achieved international success, so I do know what I'm talking about. I agree 100% with your assessment on the "designer" anabolics. Nobody knows anything about them. Interestingly, it's drug testing and the scheduling of anabolic androgenic steroids that prompted the creation of these drugs. If nandrolone, which has been on the market for 40 years, was neither tested for nor a controlled substance, then everyone would be using that instead of Methyl-1-T. Absence of knowledge is definitely not the case with transdermal testosterone, rDNA hGH, insulin, IGF-1, or EPO, however. These are the drugs at the heart of the discussion here - the same one's used by Fuentes. The strength community has been using these same drugs for decades. The amount of publicly available information surrounding them is staggering.

Agreed, but they are still the ones doing the work, not the motor.

Zonieboy

You do know that the horses are doped don't you?

huge

Right how? And by whose definition? Should the riders get to decide what they do or the spectators?

If someone was given that ultimatum, and they really wanted\needed the job, do you think they would? I had friends that was working for a company that expected a ridiculous amount of extra hours put in by employees. They would foster that behaviour by ordering in food from a really expensive restaurant, and keeping a stocked fridge with free snacks and beverages. My friends left, but they were there for a year before they had enough, a lot of people stayed longer.

Also, I don't think anyone said anything about forcing riders to dope, just that they should have the option if they feel they need it.


Doping agencies are always playing catchup with the dopers. WADA and the like are at least one generation of drugs behind. Who knows what people are taking now, or what the side effects are.


Dave

moto367

Well, I'm personally not in favor of drugs of any kind. However, everywhere you turn there is a new drug to treat this or that. So...isn't it kind of hipocritical to try to ban doping when doctors and drug companies are prescribing meds for every sniffle and sneeze or ounce of pain?? Why not allow it but regulate the levels? Not saying it's right, but just a thought.

akatsuki

That would not really solve the issue. People will just take more secretly and it will be that much harder to test for it.

goldenear

I can tell that either you have never used these drugs or you have used them and you are not a cyclist. As I've already written in another thread, the application of drugs like androgens, synthetic anabolics, hGH, and EPO are all self-limiting in TdF racing. You cannot get away with increasing dosages to get more effect because the physiological side effects would undermine your cardiovascular conditioning.

Lecterman

Same could most likely be said for ANY top level professional sports team in the world if tested to the same scrutiny as cycling...your point?

Catalium

It's these EPOrs ruin the game,God bless them,Amen!!
Just as Lance Armstrong said on the award stage in Champs-Elysees in 2005,vive le tour,forever.

SamDaBikinMan

The tour is a cycling club for drug addicts.

ddmann

Wait... Hold the presses....

You mean there are riders who aren't cheating?

alanbikehouston

The organizers of the Tour have announced that each rider must sign a "pledge" before the race starts that if they fail a drug test, they will agree to forfeit one year's salary. So far, not many riders have signed. Those that don't sign, can't ride.

Why are the riders resisting signing? They may suspect that a few hours before the race starts, they ALL will be tested...and this year, failing the test will have consequences.

So, if only twenty or thirty riders sign the pledge and then PASS any pre-race testing, would the Tour be held this year? I somehow can't see a Tour with only 30 riders. And, there may not be a hundred pro riders willing to sign the pledge who can then pass a drug test.

So, indeed, the 2007 Tour de France may yet be cancelled.

djgonzo007

I don't agree with your statement. There are plenty of athletes in all sports that compete clean. Unfortunately cheating is a part of life, whether in sports, business, or school there will always be those looking for short cuts and in the end they have their reward. Most cheaters are eventually caught or their cheating eventually catches up to them and they are placed in a situation when they will regret not doing things the right way.

HDFACTORYCERTIF

Everyones on drugs these days, the pharmy companies took alook at the street drug scene years ago and now have a big piece of the action, without interference of the pesky law. And just look at all the wonderfull dope availible from your corner doctor!
I say , let them drink Drano if they can go faster! Better Living Through Chemistry!

Don