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Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

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Old 08-01-06, 07:19 PM
  #426  
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Jan says he won't take a DNA test because he is an athlete, not a criminal.... I guess he doesnt want to clear his name all that bad, or can't....

Still a stud though..
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Old 08-01-06, 07:47 PM
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At least, Jan won the Tour in 1997 without a positive test...
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Old 08-01-06, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sunninho
At least, Jan won the Tour in 1997 without a positive test...
Then again, some tests are more sophisticated now and he may still have been doping, just not caught.
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Old 08-01-06, 07:57 PM
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Landis is a punk. He needs to turn his hat around and shave the butt hair off his chin.

(And, as a side note; Tour officials need to keep those damned kids off the podium)
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Old 08-01-06, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Skyline_Dougie
Landis is a punk. He needs to turn his hat around and shave the butt hair off his chin.
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Old 08-01-06, 08:37 PM
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Landis' personal doctor confirms positive results of carbon isotope test (IRMS)...

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/sp...ts&oref=slogin

The results of two types of tests have thrown Landis’s status into doubt. One of them, a sophisticated measure called a carbon isotope ratio test, will be difficult, if not impossible, for Landis to refute. The test examines the atomic makeup of testosterone in the urine and can determine if it is natural or synthetic.

Landis failed that test, according to a person inside the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the results. Landis’s personal doctor, Brent Kay, confirmed the finding.
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Old 08-01-06, 10:09 PM
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Look, i believe that many who post here are Pro's/ former pro's / friends of former pro's etc...
I believe cycling is at the fore front of athletic doping, i do believe why some of you don’t need to be convinced of how much cheating actually goes around. I am a gym rat myself..... I see guys who are 150lbs one year and other years are 200 lbs of solid muscle. I see guys with no lifting form huge as hell, is it possible for someone to be a freak? Sure, but 10 -15 guys & girls, out of say 3 to 400 gym members, not a likely possibility. And nothing you or any will say will make me believe any different. I am pretty big 220 lbs 4% body fat etc... And I have pictures from 7 years till present of gains and nutrition etc... I have been lifting at the same place with the same people for a while. And some of my gains are marginal, some were big. But i am there with allot of other people day in and day out. And you get a pretty good idea of "natural" gains vs. "injected gains". Is it proof?...... Nope.... it’s a feeling and i have been doing it for many years and my experience tells me otherwise. So when people like "Euro" talks about the drug use and cheats, i tend to believe the guy. Did the Texan wonder boy cheat? Never tested positive except for the saddle sore cream, for which he had a Dr's note...... Do i feel comfortable saying he was clean when he was smashing on all of those others guys when they were doped up and he wasn't? Hell NO ........ It doesn't make sense that he was the beacon of athletic achievement cleanly when everyone else is loaded up with a few enhancements. From Riis "Mr. 60%" to Lemond "Captain EPO" to Merck's "amphetamines" to whomever else comments on the path cycling is going, they came before most and set the standard for what is taking place now.

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Old 08-01-06, 10:41 PM
  #433  
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Originally Posted by iluvfreebeer
Then again, some tests are more sophisticated now and he may still have been doping, just not caught.
True. Then, could it be that widespread 'roid usage took off in cycling around the same time it took off in other sports like baseball, maybe around '96 or so? (Sorry if this was asked elsewhere)
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Old 08-02-06, 06:46 AM
  #434  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
You know, to go off on a slight tangent, one of the criticisms of standardized testing in education is that everyone and everything gets focused on passing tests rather than learning. I guess it's human nature. The same effect appears to occur in cycling. What's "fair" is anything, as long as you pass the tests. Lance's ex-mechanic testified that Lance said something like "everyone does it" when he was confronted about some unlabeled pills.
This is the reason they travel with portable centrifuges to measure their hematacrit.
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Old 08-02-06, 06:49 AM
  #435  
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Originally Posted by sweetjt
All you american's are such hypocrites. Where was everyone who is so concerned with due process now when all the riders were not allowed to race based upon pure tabloid speculation. And now 18 have been cleared and counting.

Landis and Armstrong couldn't have cheated because they are red-blooded american boys, but how did Armstrong beat Ullrich and Basso if they were such cheaters? And how come Landis was so vocal in his support of the doping controls until he got caught?

I hope Pereiro gets his trophy soon.
Actually, I'd bet the sentiment on this issue divides more along the lines of how long you've followed bike racing, than your country of origin. There are a lot of American posters on this forum in the camp that most of them dope, and it's likely that Landis did also. After you've followed the sport for awhile, it gets very hard to believe all the denials.
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Old 08-02-06, 06:51 AM
  #436  
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Originally Posted by Karlotta
Landis' personal doctor confirms positive results of carbon isotope test (IRMS)...

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/sp...ts&oref=slogin
Karlotta, could you do a cut and paste for those of us not registered with the NY Times.
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Old 08-02-06, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoothie104
Jan says he won't take a DNA test because he is an athlete, not a criminal.... I guess he doesnt want to clear his name all that bad, or can't....

Still a stud though..
I thought it was because there was no DNA in whole blood. Was that a different issue? I was pretty sure it was related to this... I'll have to go back and find it.
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Old 08-02-06, 07:58 AM
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Why wouldn't DNA be present in whole blood?
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Old 08-02-06, 08:24 AM
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Red cells have no nuclei therefore no DNA. However, any white cells in that blood would have nuclei and DNA.

Last edited by pathdoc; 08-02-06 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 08-02-06, 08:26 AM
  #440  
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So, if you commit a crime, and leave your blood at the scene, pick up all the white blood cells before you go?
Thanks Doc.
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Old 08-02-06, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Karlotta, could you do a cut and paste for those of us not registered with the NY Times.
Gladly.

August 2, 2006
Experts Say Case Against Landis Is Tough to Beat
By JULIET MACUR and GINA KOLATA

After spending several days in New York, Floyd Landis has returned home to Southern California, where he will await his fate as Tour de France champion. But antidoping officials working on his case already have evidence that some experts say is convincing enough to show that Landis cheated to win the Tour, regardless of further testing or appeals.

Landis, 30, provided a urine sample after winning Stage 17 in the Alps with a long solo attack. That day, he climbed back into contention for the victory after a miserable performance a day earlier.

The results of two types of tests have thrown Landis’s status into doubt. One of them, a sophisticated measure called a carbon isotope ratio test, will be difficult, if not impossible, for Landis to refute. The test examines the atomic makeup of testosterone in the urine and can determine if it is natural or synthetic.

Landis failed that test, according to a person inside the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the results. Landis’s personal doctor, Brent Kay, confirmed the finding.

The cycling union said it expected the results of a test on Landis’s backup urine sample by Saturday morning, Paris time. If that test comes back positive, Landis would be stripped of his Tour title and would probably be suspended from cycling for two years. If the test comes back negative, the case would be dropped.

A screening on the backup sample will also aim to confirm the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in the urine, which is the other type of test used in the case. The initial testing found a level of 11 to 1, well above the World Anti-Doping Agency’s limit of 4 to 1.

Several experts said the carbon isotope test ultimately mattered more than the T/E test because it shows that some of the testosterone found in the sample came from an outside source, not from a natural process in Landis’s body.

“It’s powerful evidence that’s pretty definitive,” said David Cowan, a professor at King’s College London and the director of the Drug Control Center in London, which is accredited by WADA. “That in itself is enough to pursue a case.”

In Landis’s case, the French national antidoping laboratory in Châtenay-Malabry performed the testing — not Cowan’s lab.

Still, Cowan said, most lab directors are careful to build a case against an athlete on much more than just one positive test, no matter how definitive a single test might be. A doping case in sports is treated like a criminal case, he said, with carefully gathered and documented evidence. He said the scientists at his laboratory retested a sample several times before announcing their results to the athlete and the authorities involved. He said they wanted to make sure their positive result was correct before moving on to the backup sample.

Landis said last week that he was expecting the worst because backup samples, or B samples, almost always confirm the initial result. But Kay said the B sample could come back negative.

“The carbon isotope was only mildly elevated,” he said. “We know, from a statistical standpoint, that the first result could have been a false positive.”

Testosterone can be administered by injection, pill, gel or time-released patch, like those mentioned in the Spanish doping scandal that implicated nearly 60 cyclists and others in the sport before this year’s Tour. Landis has denied using testosterone or any performance-enhancing drugs.

Nonetheless, Dr. Gary I. Wadler, an antidoping expert and associate professor at the New York University School of Medicine, said the evidence against Landis, taken as a whole, “would be hard to beat.”

He added: “Phase 1 was finding evidence from his body fluid that a doping violation occurred, and we have that. I don’t know how he will get around that.”

The carbon isotope test is used to look for testosterone abuse, and it came into use about six years ago, when companies produced equipment sensitive enough to do the test in urine samples.

It can cost about $300 more to test an athlete’s urine sample, but antidoping labs routinely use it when they have reason to suspect that an athlete was taking testosterone.

The test starts with an isolation of testosterone from the athlete’s urine. Then chemists determine the makeup of the carbon atoms that form the backbone of testosterone.

Ordinarily, carbon atoms are made up of six protons and six neutrons, giving them an atomic weight of 12. But occasionally, they have an extra neutron, giving them an atomic weight of 13.

By chance, soy plants are the source of most pharmaceutical testosterone. They tend to have slightly less carbon-13 than other plants that are more abundant in the human diet. Humans make testosterone from the food they eat, so their testosterone typically has more carbon-13 than the testosterone that drug companies synthesize from soy.

But these differences are tiny.

The test determines whether the testosterone in the athlete’s urine has less carbon-13 than another naturally occurring hormone in the urine, like cholesterol. The test is considered positive when the carbon isotope ratio — the amount of carbon-13 compared to carbon-12 — is three or more units higher in the athlete’s testosterone than it is in the comparison hormone. It is evidence that the testosterone in the urine was not made by the athlete’s body. Landis’s difference was 3.99, according to his own doctor.

“For me, that would be it,” said Donald H. Catlin, who runs the Olympic drug-testing laboratory at U.C.L.A.

The test could not, however, determine if someone had tampered with the urine sample or was negligent.

The lab that conducted the testing on Landis’s samples has previously been criticized for its handling of samples.

L’Équipe, a French sports newspaper, reported that samples taken from Lance Armstrong during the 1999 Tour de France were analyzed at the lab. Several of those samples, which were supposed to be used for research purposes only, later tested positive for EPO, an endurance-boosting drug.

The International Cycling Union commissioned a report that later cleared Armstrong of the doping allegations, partly because of the way the lab had handled the results. Armstrong lashed out at the lab, too.

But Christiane Ayotte, director of an antidoping lab in Montreal, said that the standards were lower for handling samples for research.

“It’s not fair to criticize them because of that,” she said. “When we’re talking about a routine analysis, the lab in Paris does high-quality work.”
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Old 08-02-06, 08:54 AM
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I hope Pereiro gets his trophy soon.
He doesn't deserve it. And neither does Kloden. Sastre is my winner.
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Old 08-02-06, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by EURO
He doesn't deserve it. And neither does Kloden. Sastre is my winner.
Based on desire and effort throughout the stages, I agree.
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Old 08-02-06, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by lawkd
They have bags of Ullrich's blood, from Fuentes' refrigerator, ready for re-packing. That's pretty strong evidence, don't you think? Jan could take a simple DNA test to prove that it's not his blood, but he refuses. It's tragic that some innocent riders have suffered, but they were not ALL innocent.

Oh I LOVE it! You know it's Ullrich's blood because???? It's red???? Give me a break. Ullrich is right not to give a DNA sample. He hasn't been given any of the evidence. He has no way of knowing how any of that blood got there. Don't forget that you hero, Armstrong, claimed that Ferrari was his doctor and even though Ferrari doped others, he didn't dope Armstrong. There are a million reasons why a clinic would have a cyclist's blood. No attorney worth his salt would turn over a DNA test without knowing what his client is being accused of.
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Old 08-02-06, 10:27 AM
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WHAT!?! First of all, the stage winner and Pereiro are the only riders who didn't take the day off the day Phonak decided to ride in slow motion. Secondly, if Sastre/Kloden and their teams had been willing to chase down Landis on Stage 17, Landis wouldn't even be on the podium. Third, Sastre did a terrible time trial. Pereiro elevated his game with his best time trial ever. He totally deserves to win.
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Old 08-02-06, 10:41 AM
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Read Julich's column on the day Phonak decided not to defend the jersey. He felt they shamed the yellow jersey. I agreed completely at the time and still do. The only OLN commentators I can stand are the two who actually rode the tour and they both agreed with this take. It's not surprising that CSC and T-Mobile were so meek given that those teams were built around Ullrich and Basso. If Basso, Vino and Ullrich had ridden it would have been a much more attack-laden, entertaining tour.

Phonak may have given it away, but Pereiro took it and ran with his. The arrogance Landis showed in thinking it was his to give away is shown again in his thinking he could get away with a testo patch.
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Old 08-02-06, 11:30 AM
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Its all end-game strategies now for Landis and Phonak. Pick your favorite: soy milk? spiked massage oil? He could probably get a ride with a spanish squad in a couple years. Maybe he will even get to hook up with his old team mate Tyler.
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Old 08-02-06, 11:33 AM
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I love Floyd but here is why I think he is guilty. My analysis has nothing to do with test results. It is based on listening to his initial telephone press conference and watching his TV press conference, and other things:

1. When first asked if he ever doped (in the telephone conference) he said "I am going to say no." Why not just "No."

2. In the TV press conference he said "I am not involved in a doping process." This is very un-Floyd and very Clintonian. Literally it means "I am not, right now, a week after the Tour and after having tested positive, doping." We know you aren't doping right now during this press conference Floyd. You answered a question no one asked.

3. In many interviews before the positive results, he talked about the "beer" he had after Stage 16. Then all of the sudden after the positive result he started mentioning two beers plus four shots of Jack Daniels he had in his room after the stage. I had never heard this before in any public statement. This was a day after the test results, and seems specifically aimed to fit into the public studies saying that alcohol may affect the T/E ratio. Also a little hard to believe he would ride like that in Stage 17 after 6 ounces of alcohol--after bonking from dehydration and lack of nutrition and heat in the prior stage.

4. His complete disappearance for 24-48 hours after the news came out, followed by the strange telephone news conference, followed by the strange TV news conference where he sounded like some United Nations envoy reading a bunch of Euro-Diplo-Techno speak, while looking like a rapper. Bizarre and not Floyd at all.

This is subjective, but if I was innocent and I was being falsely accused I would be shocked and outraged and angry and immediately out denying everything in the strongest, most unequivocal terms. He did not seem any of that. He gave only convoluted, lawyered-up defenses.

5. History of doping violations in the Phonak team.

6. Going on Larry King -- classic move of the notorious who need sympathetic, uncritical questioning.

I am very sympathetic to these guys. I think they think everyone does it, and that as long as they don't do it too much, and they do it just enough not to fail tests, they think it is OK. Then if they screw up and accidentally fail a test, they almost think of themselves as not-guilty.

Sort of like driving 64 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. Everyone else is doing it and you know the cops will only pull you over if you go 65.

Anyway, my analysis, for your praise and scorn....
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Old 08-02-06, 11:55 AM
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Maybe Floyd will go the Mel Gibson route but I doubt it.
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Old 08-02-06, 12:49 PM
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Do you mean blame it on Jewish people?

Lance has already played that card, blaming it on the French.
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